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Knee pain... options for reduction with boot modifications

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 

I've been skiing alot this winter, and since I put Superfeet Orange footbeds into my ski boots, I have developed knee pain and occasional foot pain in boot while skiing.  Going over anything that is not PERFECT groomed snow has become borderline impassible due to knee pain.... i'm only 24.  The stock footbeds were very comfortable, but they let my heel go WAY down in the boot, and thus allowed for the top of the liner to drive straight into the belly of my gastrocnemius muscle, making a good fit up top impossible.

 

Are superfeet orange bad for the foot and knee?  If so, will custom footbeds reduce knee pain?

 

 

Also, as far as cuff alignment (which feels too "inward" and painful), once and for all I just want a straight answer... if my knee is over the front of the boot, how many millimeters from the center line should the knee be?

 

 

Misc info...  I'm short (5'7"), so cuffs ride way up my leg, and here in Ohio I ski more aggressively than 99.5% of people (so I need the most perfect boot setup).

 

 

Oh, and if you think I should "consult a bootfitter," well, I already did do that at my local ski shop (rated "The Best in Ohio!"), and the bootfitter was passive and not quite as helpful as a would have liked.  Hence, with the exception of getting custom footbeds, the rest of this stuff is up to me to fix.

post #2 of 11

the footbed is probably not causing the knee pain. that said need to know what size orange superfeet is in the boot? ankle range of motion? arch flexibility? arch height? forefoot mechanics? knock kneed? bowlegged? heavily pigeon toed? duck footed? anything funky going on there?

 

high odds that it has something to do with the boot. most likely the boot is too big. most likely the boot board has not be brought to neutral in both arch shape and varus angle. the footbed needs to sit on a flat surface for a base of support.

 

what boot model are you using?

 

what size are you in? what is your measured foot size? what size shoes do you buy?

 

where does your knee hurt?

 

what ski are you using? how is it prepared?

 

jim

post #3 of 11
Thread Starter 


I'll try to give as much info in response to your questions as I can...

 

-Boots:  HEAD Raptor LTD 27.5 (these are 115 flex, 98 last)... after "packing out" for my purposes (agressive skiing), these feel WAY too loose... today I buckled them to borderline pain and got good skiing in.

 

-Don't think anything "funky" is going on, but the inexperienced bootfitter I saw said they were "wide" and "flat"... and for someone my height, my feet are slightly oversized... they are not "duckfeet," but they have the wide appearance of the feet of many duck I've seen

 

-Lately, when doing squats in the gym, I have better power driving through the lateral surfaces of the feet (not sure if relevant at all)

 

-FWIW, sixth toe bone is quite pronounced and was only thing keeping me from getting 95mm lasted boots

 

-Shell fit... due to nature of the HEAD boots, I couldn't get finger down into heel area, but I stuck a sharpie marker right behind heel and it felt fine  (and BELIEVE ME, both heels are quite snug against rear of boot)

 

-Heels, however, feel loose lately, and I feel like I can "step out" of boot somewhat

 

-Knee Pain... if I had to pick one area, I'd say it's the medial aspects of the knee, ranging from sharp pain in those muscles to sharp pain in the joints.

 

-Skis:  Fischer WC RC Pro, and Fischer Progressor 7+ (the pain somewhat coincided with really amping up my carving to no limits when I recently got the RC pros)... as far as setup??? Um, the RC pro has flowflex 2.0 bindings... I'm assuming standard position for those skis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post

the footbed is probably not causing the knee pain. that said need to know what size orange superfeet is in the boot? ankle range of motion? arch flexibility? arch height? forefoot mechanics? knock kneed? bowlegged? heavily pigeon toed? duck footed? anything funky going on there?

 

high odds that it has something to do with the boot. most likely the boot is too big. most likely the boot board has not be brought to neutral in both arch shape and varus angle. the footbed needs to sit on a flat surface for a base of support.

 

what boot model are you using?

 

what size are you in? what is your measured foot size? what size shoes do you buy?

 

where does your knee hurt?

 

what ski are you using? how is it prepared?

 

jim



 

post #4 of 11

ok, somewhat helpful.

 

still curious about what your foot measures?

 

movement, or loose feeling in any boot indicates over sized, especially in a 98 mm lasted performance boot.

 

part of being oversized is that the boot comes up higher on the lower leg. if the boot is truly the correct size for your foot, yet the height of the cuff is having undue influence on the lower leg affecting the knee, it is possible to lower or cut down the cuff to give you some relief.

 

has your ski been prepped? if not check the base bevel and make sure that it is at least 1 degree on the base edge side. this will make the ski less critical and potentially relieve some pressure on your knees.

post #5 of 11
Thread Starter 


Oh, edge bevels... I run 1 base/3 side on all my skis.  I never go out unwaxed... the RC Pro's are always waxed with high flouros and running quick (not even sure if that's relevant)...

 

Anyway, on to my foot... it measures 280 cms on paper I traced it on.  I wear 10.5 US shoes.  Yeah, I looked at the shell again and there's too much room... WAY too much.

 

 

About cuff length... do smaller boot sizes have shorter cuffs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post

ok, somewhat helpful.

 

still curious about what your foot measures?

 

movement, or loose feeling in any boot indicates over sized, especially in a 98 mm lasted performance boot.

 

part of being oversized is that the boot comes up higher on the lower leg. if the boot is truly the correct size for your foot, yet the height of the cuff is having undue influence on the lower leg affecting the knee, it is possible to lower or cut down the cuff to give you some relief.

 

has your ski been prepped? if not check the base bevel and make sure that it is at least 1 degree on the base edge side. this will make the ski less critical and potentially relieve some pressure on your knees.



 

post #6 of 11
Thread Starter 

I just ordered HEAD Raptor 125 RS 26.5 boots.  Will two or three days be enough to "pack them out" enough for a combo racing/ski vacation later this month?  If not, is there anything else I can do to expidite the process of the liners conforming to my foot?  These are HEAD "Race Pro" liners.

 

 

 

 

 

post #7 of 11

Nothing is adding up here.   You wear a 10.5 U.S. shoe, your foot measures 28cm and the 27 is way too big.  I don't think so! 

 

So you've ordered 26 in the same design boot that is giving you problems?

 

Does this sound like solving a dead battery issue, by purchasing a battery, then if that goes dead purchasing an alternator, then if the problem still persists replacing the fan belt and if it still is present cleaning the cables.  Then when the problem is gone being pissed off at how many things went wrong at the same time?

 

I'd slow down with the purchase and continue with the evaluation until you are more certain of the problem.

 

Jim's ideas are spot on but you are moving quickly past them.

 

Lou

post #8 of 11
Thread Starter 

UPDATE:  I have had the boots on my feet for about 30 minutes now.  The right boot feels great, and the left boot is somewhat uncomfortable (same darn thing with my 27.5 raptors).  I put pieces of tape in the places I need punched out.

 

If any of you bootfitters care to still offer advice, would you recommend a couple days of skiing through the pain in the left foot before punching out, or should I just go ahead and take the boots in today?  (I only ask because many on this forum say you should ski a few days and THEN see what needs punched out)

 

And Lou---is it not true that there is very little correlation between internal shell size and US shoe sizes?  I know many here go two sizes down in ski boots, and everywhere I read says 5-10 cm for aggressive skiers is good for shell fit... furthermore, as I told starthaus, after 20 days of skiing my heels were beginning to slide out of the boot, and the toebox felt like the grand canyon.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post

Nothing is adding up here.   You wear a 10.5 U.S. shoe, your foot measures 28cm and the 27 is way too big.  I don't think so! 

 

So you've ordered 26 in the same design boot that is giving you problems?

 

Does this sound like solving a dead battery issue, by purchasing a battery, then if that goes dead purchasing an alternator, then if the problem still persists replacing the fan belt and if it still is present cleaning the cables.  Then when the problem is gone being pissed off at how many things went wrong at the same time?

 

I'd slow down with the purchase and continue with the evaluation until you are more certain of the problem.

 

Jim's ideas are spot on but you are moving quickly past them.

 

Lou

I thought he communicated that the cause of the knee issues might have been boots too large.  The shell fit (which I originally messed up because I didn't look all the way down to the heel) had at leas 25 mm behind my foot.

 

My new boots, which I just got and am trying on, have about 10-15 mm of room in the shell.

 

 

Anyway, these feel SUPER tight and were VERY difficult to get on.... how long until that will resolve?  Is this normal for new race boots?  And, would you recommend I get shell stretching on these to accelerate comfort issues?
 

 


Edited by Vitamin Ski - 3/9/11 at 9:19am
post #9 of 11

There absolutely is a correlation between U.S. size and the U.S. size on ski boot boxes and often you have to go down one size.  However, I believe you said your foot is 28 cm long and that absolutely equates to 28 Mondo.  Rarely, almost never do I have to size someone down from Mondo sizing.

 

Lou

post #10 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post

There absolutely is a correlation between U.S. size and the U.S. size on ski boot boxes and often you have to go down one size.  However, I believe you said your foot is 28 cm long and that absolutely equates to 28 Mondo.  Rarely, almost never do I have to size someone down from Mondo sizing.

 

Lou



I'm sure you do do that with most of your customers, but believe me:  I put my foot in the 26 HEAD shell with the toe touching the front, and there was at least 1 cm behind my heel.  After having the boots on for an hour in my house, the one consistent and significant source of pain was the sixth toe, so I took the boots in to have that area punched out.  I want the snug fit for racing/hard snow skiing.

 

And believe me also that after 25 days of use on my 27.5 HEAD LTDs, the heel was so loose I could pull it out with light plantarflexion.  I can't have that kind of fit when skiing as hard as I do.  If you were referring to JimS's comments to one of my earlier questions, I did indeed purchase cork shims (the only kind I could find), cut them down 3/4 of the way... this just compounded shell issues, especially on my left foot.  And about his advice to try 95mm last (perhaps mostly just reaffirming my own assumption), well starthaus's comments here surely refute doing that in my situation.

 

 

My flat, relaxed foot is indeed 28 cm long.  However, when tensed in a way it would be while skiing, it comes down to 26.5.

 

 

Anyway, my part of the country may be getting a 17 inch "winter blast" in the coming days, so I may be getting much more than 4 days in those boots before I race/vacation in them.  Furthermore, my local shop offers unlimited shell stretches for the rest of the year for free (after the initial fee assessed).

post #11 of 11

i don't see a problem going to the 26.5 if the shell check is good.... the liners in the raptor do come up hellish short, may be worth trying ther liners form your 27 in the 26 shell...as for do you ski first punch later, it depends on the nature of what needs doing..... if you have a bunion or tailors bunion or other protrusion then punch the shell, if it is a duffuse tightness thna i would ski it and see if the liner packs, but lumps and bumps need to be dealt with

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