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2012 Blizzard Bonafide - Page 5

post #121 of 461


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post


 

 

Hey beyond, you - or someone, at any rate - has posted this same basic question at least once before, in a slightly different context. I thought it was a good question then and still think that. I frequently have the same thoughts while reading this board, and also while looking - for example - at the lengths used when magazines do ski tests. (It appears in many cases that a single length is tested by magazine testers who come in a very wide range of sizes, and that single length - when reported - is typically very much on the long side, unless it's specifically a test of women's skis.) Setting aside the special case of real slalom skis, I can think of several possible reasons for this phenomenon:

 

Manufacturers would rather their skis be criticized on line or in the press for being too powerful than for being too wimpy, so erring on the long side when providing skis for testing is preferable. To the extent that skis for testing are provided by their manufacturers, ski testing is as much a marketing activity as it is an analytical activity.

 

Testers and reviewers (male testers and reviewers, anyway, who appear to be the majority) would rather be seen as being on a longer ski than a shorter ski, to the extent that ski length is thought to reflect ability, experience, personal strength, and general tendency to take after John Wayne in all the things that matter to the male ego.

 

While the marketing piece aimed at getting people to buy a ski aims at long ski lengths for sales reasons, manufacturers' sizing schemes presumably reflect their desire - and their retailers' desires - for the skier who buys the product actually to LIKE the experience of skiing on it. Therefore these sizing schemes reflect the reality of how big people actually are, how well they actually ski, and where they actually ski, rather the reflecting their fantasies.

 

Much of the image - and, to a lesser extent, the reality - of American skiing centers on the West, where spaces are bigger and more open, favoring longer boards. Much formal testing seems to occur in the West. You only have to look to this board to see that reflected, at Keelty's site, and also in magazine tests, etc., etc. I would be interested to hear, however, what proportion of ski sales occur in the East vs. the West.

 

Note that a common thread here is the general bias on the part of American culture - and American men's culture, especially - to privilege things that are big and and to denigrate things that are small. Paging Dr. Freud. I suspect that male competitive psychology plays a huge part in these kinds of recommendations. (Please note that I don't mean to pick on wasatchback here at all, personally.) Everyone has seen the kinds of testosterone-driven posturing that happen on this site from time to time (or more often than that). Why should ski size recommendations be any different?



I actually make a point to recommend shorter than what I buy skis to alot of people. In fact when I moved to stowe, my quiver instantly shrunk 10 cm all around for the most part.  Now that I out at the bird for a couple weeks my shorter quiver is more demanding than the 190-195ish skis my peers out here ride.  Its easier to maintain balance on longer skis, especially in chopped, bumped snow at speed in low light. My 183 Katana although a really sweet ski and would probably be the right ski for most people my size, is not up to the task of 5 turn cirque runs or stomping airs in choppy snow. Most people arent looking for a or need ski that can do that but I am the minority that needs it.

 

 

post #122 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

Wasatchback, maybe you can answer this, since I can get no coherent feedback from manufacturers: If there will be four lengths of this ski next year, and if you're recommending the third of the four lengths to someone who is statistically about average height and in the 30-40th percentile for weight, then who do you point in the direction of the 166 or 173? Just females or male jockey's? Conversely, if someone his size is perfect for the 180, that seems to leave a ridiculous range for the 187 to cover. What about a guy who's 210 and 6'4"? Just choose another ski? Do you see the problem? Makers produce four or five lengths for skis that are unisex (and note nearly 80% of skiers are male), but everyone is pointed at the longer two. I'm sure I'm missing some obvious point, but can't get the logic. And when BWPA, who's almost exactly this guy's size, extolls the virtues of a 173 Bushwacker, which is lighter, softer, and if anything, should ski shorter, I get even more confused. Talking about length relative to height and tip pressure doesn't help either, since this guy is not in the 75th percentile for height, although the ski is the 75th p for length. I'm not disputing your call, have never even skied the things. Just can't understand why if he's right for a 180, Blizzard even produces 166's. And not 194's.  th_dunno-1[1].gif


I'll take a stab at this but sizing is so subjective and depends on so many different things, height, weight , age, ability (or perceived ability), mountain you ski, length of previous skis etc...

Jaytierney in my opinion is the perfect candidate for the 180. Based on his height and weight and the fact that it says he's from Sonoma so he probably skis in Tahoe where the snow is heavier and the resorts (Squaw, alpine, kirkwood ,sugar bowl) tend to be relatively wide open so people ski faster. If he was skiing predominantly in the Midwest or maybe at an average mountain back east then the 173 might come into the equation. The 187 is meant for someone who's probably over 6 feet and 180-190 + but again it's all based on personal preference. Age is a big factor as well. The two shorter sizes will come into play with the older ground who doesn't go as fast but still wants a little width for float. Ski Instructors also tend to ski on shorter skis for teaching as they have to do so many different turn shapes and tend to ski at slower speeds. I give skis to an instructor who's 5'10", 185-90 lbs and one of the best skiers I've ever skied with and he'll probably ski the 173.... then there's my girlfriend is all of 5'6" 125 lbs and she skis the 185 Cochise on crud and powder days but she was an NCAA All American. Or then you have the guys that are all of 5 feet that have to skis the longest skis made. There are so many variables that come into ski sizing but I personally think the sizing for the Bonafide will cover 90% of the population.. The 173 and 180 will be the most popular sizes by far. I think the 187 could easily handle the guy that's 6'4" and 210. I'm 6'2" 215, ski harder than most, and I never felt like I was over skiing it.

You just have to factor so many more variables than just height and weight which it seems like you were getting caught up on. It's definitely not an exact science but the guys who've been doing it for a while or who work in the best ski shops can usually get it pretty close.

It is very expensive to make a ski mold so the manufacturers have to choose sizes that they think will cover a large percentage of the population and also in the shorter sizes produce molds that will work for both men and women. Is the sizing in the freemountain collection perfect? No, there could have been a few more sizes and there will be going forward but for a small company like Blizzard you have to pick your battles and spend your money on sizes that will pay off those molds faster. Companies like K2 and Volkl can afford to make a lot more sizes right off the bat because they're much larger companies and have the $$$ to do it.

I have no idea if that answered your question or not, hopefully it helped.
post #123 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasatchback View Post

It is very expensive to make a ski mold so the manufacturers have to choose sizes that they think will cover a large percentage of the population and also in the shorter sizes produce molds that will work for both men and women. Is the sizing in the freemountain collection perfect? No, there could have been a few more sizes and there will be going forward but for a small company like Blizzard you have to pick your battles and spend your money on sizes that will pay off those molds faster. Companies like K2 and Volkl can afford to make a lot more sizes right off the bat because they're much larger companies and have the $$$ to do it.

I have no idea if that answered your question or not, hopefully it helped.


This part comes closest; I wasn't disputing why you recommend the 180, have a hunch you're right. Rather, can't make sense out of the ranges that makers come up with relative to what people ski. Agree about company size and range, but actually if you look a lot of big companies also stop at 4. Nobody I know makes more than 5. My guess is that the number of skiers who are small or large isn't worth it, so the 4 sizes are actually aimed at folks between say 120 and 200 lbs. That's about 1 standard deviation below female average weight, and 1 STD above male average weight. Thus 120-140, 140-160, 160-180, 180-200. Obviously style or terrain then may push you up or down, so a 190 lb male who cranks is pretty much out of luck.

 

But curious why majors don't do what the indies do, which is often to make a slightly longer model that is seriously stiffer. (For instance the new 191 Billy Goat by ON3P, or the 193 EHP by 4FRNT.) Just for the big guys who like to rip. Note that indies also often ignore females for a long time, thus DPS doesn't make a Wailer 105 shorter than 178 because I bet very few women do backcountry skinning, relative to men. PM Gear has an interesting strategy, they make models by length rather than width, so the 174 is a different flex, different topsheet, but same width and basic shape as the 179 or 183. 

 

Sorry for the thread drift, back to the regularly scheduled extolling of the Bonafide...

 


Edited by beyond - 4/24/11 at 5:46pm
post #124 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post



<.

But curious why majors don't do what the indies do, which is often to make a slightly longer model that is seriously stiffer. (For instance the new 191 Billy Goat by ON3P, or the 193 EHP by 4FRNT.) Just for the big guys who like to rip. Note that indies also often ignore females for a long time, thus DPS doesn't make a Wailer 105 shorter than 178 because I bet very few women do backcountry skinning, relative to men. PM Gear has an interesting strategy, they make models by length rather than width, so the 174 is a different flex, different topsheet, but same width and basic shape as the 179 or 183. 

 

Sorry for the thread drift, back to the regularly scheduled extolling of the Bonafide...

 


This is their angle, producing the skis for the small number of people who's needs aren't being met by the larger manufacturers. The bigger companies are producing skis for the non typical consumer/athlete... Volkl makes a 197 Katana, Rossi the 195 Super 7, Armada 195 JJ, and my brain is fried so I can't think of the other examples. I think the Indies will still ignore the female consumer as there are less women out there who's needs aren't met by the larger brands or who can't get what they're looking for my going to a men's/unisex ski.
post #125 of 461

I've all but decided the Blizzard Bonafide is the ski for me. But I am undecided on the length. I'm 6'3" 170lbs an advanced agressive skier that will be using this ski for everything as this will be my quiver of one for the time being. Any sugestions?

post #126 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWKarl View Post

I've all but decided the Blizzard Bonafide is the ski for me. But I am undecided on the length. I'm 6'3" 170lbs an advanced agressive skier that will be using this ski for everything as this will be my quiver of one for the time being. Any sugestions?



I would be happy to help you buy a pair of 187's. 

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post #127 of 461

^^^  I am going to say the 187 just based on your heigth and assuming your a good skier. If you were closer to 5'10", I would have suggested the 180. I am 5'10 and I am thinking the 187 is what I want.


 

post #128 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2 ski View Post

^^^  I am going to say the 187 just based on your heigth and assuming your a good skier. If you were closer to 5'10", I would have suggested the 180. I am 5'10 and I am thinking the 187 is what I want.


 


I am barely 5'10 and 165 lb the 187 was down right easy to ski. I am actually considering it as EC nearly daily driver.

 

post #129 of 461

Thanks for the quick replies I think I'll go with the 187's.

post #130 of 461

I skied Philpug's 180s out at ABasin on Saturday, for about 3 runs on firm-but-softening-up spring snow. My impressions: They made me want to go really really fast. And they (and the Bushwackers I skied the day before) wanted to be skied a little bit more forward than my Crushes, which seem to like to be skied more from the middle. That's about it. :-) 

post #131 of 461

As a 98 waist ski compared to the 'bones', what's the 2012 profit 98 like?

 

Phil or others..

 

cheers

post #132 of 461

Perused the thread and have a few questions.

 

Do the 180 lengths in the Bush and Bone ski short?

 

I'm eying the Bush for my daily driver (been on a pair of T9's for the past 2 seasons, love 'em, but they're dying) and the Bone for my B/C set-up. 180cm has been my sweet size.

 

Also, since we're talking Blizzards, would owning a Bush and an 8.7 be redundant, even if one got the 8.7 in a 174 length? (needing a teaching ski, too).

 

Finally, Bushwhacker (the skier) mentioned booting out on Look binders. I'm a big Look fan (that's what's on my T9's)...is there a "better" or "more optimal" binding choice for the Bush and Bone skis?

 

Short story is that while I really want to pad the quiver with small/boutique company planks, I've been happy with my T9's and the new Blizzards are gonna be easier to snag than some of the smaller ski company skis I've been eying.

post #133 of 461

I am putting a set ofMarker Griffons on my Bushwackers when they arrive,never had a problem with this binding. As far as the Bone goes, it is 98 mm underfoot(almost same width as boot),you shouldn't have boot out problem with any binding. Only thing you need to worry about is the width of the brake.Just my .02     Dave

post #134 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post

Perused the thread and have a few questions.

 

Do the 180 lengths in the Bush and Bone ski short?

 

I'm eying the Bush for my daily driver (been on a pair of T9's for the past 2 seasons, love 'em, but they're dying) and the Bone for my B/C set-up. 180cm has been my sweet size.

 

Also, since we're talking Blizzards, would owning a Bush and an 8.7 be redundant, even if one got the 8.7 in a 174 length? (needing a teaching ski, too).

 

Finally, Bushwhacker (the skier) mentioned booting out on Look binders. I'm a big Look fan (that's what's on my T9's)...is there a "better" or "more optimal" binding choice for the Bush and Bone skis?

 

Short story is that while I really want to pad the quiver with small/boutique company planks, I've been happy with my T9's and the new Blizzards are gonna be easier to snag than some of the smaller ski company skis I've been eying.

 

Sizing is so specific it's hard to say.  Personally I don't think they ski short but they definitely don't ski long.  I'm 6'2" 210 and I couldn't overpower the Bonafide on hard snow or groomers

but I wanted a little more length for more stability and float in crud/powder.   If 180s have been your size in the past, stick with the 180 in these, you won't be disapointed. 

 

Having a Bushwacker and an 8.7 would be a little redundant yes.... I would go either 8.1/Bushwacker or 8.7/Bonafide if I was you. 

 

I think the new Marker binding design makes the wider skis feel narrower.  There is so much more material closer to the edge of the ski and much better overall contact with the boot on the Jester/Griffon design than on the Rossi.   I think most people would be suprised how different a ski can feel when you take a few runs on a pain mounted with Looks then a few runs with a pair mounted with Markers.  People really like the Look design for many reasons but I personally think the skiability of the Marker is better than anything else out there.

 

 

post #135 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post

Perused the thread and have a few questions.

 

Do the 180 lengths in the Bush and Bone ski short?

 

I'm eying the Bush for my daily driver (been on a pair of T9's for the past 2 seasons, love 'em, but they're dying) and the Bone for my B/C set-up. 180cm has been my sweet size.

 

Also, since we're talking Blizzards, would owning a Bush and an 8.7 be redundant, even if one got the 8.7 in a 174 length? (needing a teaching ski, too).

 

Finally, Bushwhacker (the skier) mentioned booting out on Look binders. I'm a big Look fan (that's what's on my T9's)...is there a "better" or "more optimal" binding choice for the Bush and Bone skis?

 

Short story is that while I really want to pad the quiver with small/boutique company planks, I've been happy with my T9's and the new Blizzards are gonna be easier to snag than some of the smaller ski company skis I've been eying.


I agree the 8.7 & Bush would be redundant. If you need a teaching ski, the 8.1 would be a better choice to go with the other two super choices. I would put Pivot 14's on flipcore skis and just stay with the IQ Max system on the 8.1. The 2012 8.1 (and 8.7) do have early rise for next year. 

 

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post #136 of 461

danke gracias on the feedback gents.

keep in mind, that my teaching ski would remain at work, so if i went ahead with the 8.7 and Bush, they'd not be used simultaneously (it's a hassle to keep lugging skis to and from work for days off...i learned that this season when i had 3 skis at work and then on days off i always had to take everything home as i usually skied elsewhere on those days). again, i've only skied the 8.7 in a 174 and liked it, but then again i don't have much to compare it to other than the Titan 9 i've been using for the past 2 seasons.

 

is the 8.1 pretty much the same feel as the 8.7, just 6mm narrower (i.e. same mediumish flex)?

post #137 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookey67 View Post

danke gracias on the feedback gents.

keep in mind, that my teaching ski would remain at work, so if i went ahead with the 8.7 and Bush, they'd not be used simultaneously (it's a hassle to keep lugging skis to and from work for days off...i learned that this season when i had 3 skis at work and then on days off i always had to take everything home as i usually skied elsewhere on those days). again, i've only skied the 8.7 in a 174 and liked it, but then again i don't have much to compare it to other than the Titan 9 i've been using for the past 2 seasons.

 

is the 8.1 pretty much the same feel as the 8.7, just 6mm narrower (i.e. same mediumish flex)?

 

Yup basically just 6 mm narrower.... No real change in construction
 

 

post #138 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasatchback View Post



 

Sizing is so specific it's hard to say.  Personally I don't think they ski short but they definitely don't ski long.  I'm 6'2" 210 and I couldn't overpower the Bonafide on hard snow or groomers

but I wanted a little more length for more stability and float in crud/powder.   If 180s have been your size in the past, stick with the 180 in these, you won't be disapointed. 

 

Having a Bushwacker and an 8.7 would be a little redundant yes.... I would go either 8.1/Bushwacker or 8.7/Bonafide if I was you. 

 

I think the new Marker binding design makes the wider skis feel narrower.  There is so much more material closer to the edge of the ski and much better overall contact with the boot on the Jester/Griffon design than on the Rossi.   I think most people would be suprised how different a ski can feel when you take a few runs on a pain mounted with Looks then a few runs with a pair mounted with Markers.  People really like the Look design for many reasons but I personally think the skiability of the Marker is better than anything else out there.

 

 


he speaks the truth about the bindings. At least with me skiing on the bushwacker's I have had alot of issue with boot out with Look p14. I have neven booted out my outside boot before untill these skis. I wouldnt recommend the set up to anyone really. The non touring markers have slightly more lift but I have a feeling the ski will ski really sweet with some Barons/Dukes. Not only that it would be a pretty light set up to go uphill with.

 

post #139 of 461
Thread Starter 

I skies the Bonafides with Pivots, and I had no issues with boot-out (maybe I was not getting high enough angles, but I doubt it).  Pivots indeed have a very low stack height, and Blizzards are subjectively rather thin skis, so that may contribute some to the perceived problem, but I doubt it will be an issue for the 98mm Bonafide (after all, the boots are not much wider than 98mm!).  I also did not notice any difference in feeling between Marker and Look.  I am an unabashed Look fan, but my last two new bindings happened to be Marker, and I honestly feel very little difference.  My only problem with Looks is price for the Pivot 14- given the plastic construction and cheesy scratch-prone finish, they should either cost in line with Griffons or have metal housing to justify the high cost.   I doubt that plastic construction has any effect on durability or function of the Pivots, on the other hand plastic Griffons have been bomber so far too.  Given other choices on the market. Pivot 14 are clearly overpriced, Look is cashing in on the reputation of the previous generation of Pivots.  

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post #140 of 461

Has anyone posted up the weight on the 187 Bonafide yet?

post #141 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2 ski View Post

Has anyone posted up the weight on the 187 Bonafide yet?



No and why? What is a couple ounces here or there? The ski skis fantastic, what is the concern? th_dunno-1[1].gif

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post #142 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post





No and why? What is a couple ounces here or there? The ski skis fantastic, what is the concern? th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif


inbounds I doubt this any, but for touring it matters to some people. 1lb of difference will add up over 6k of uphill.

 

post #143 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




inbounds I doubt this any, but for touring it matters to some people. 1lb of difference will add up over 6k of uphill.

 


Correct you are sir, so can someone give me a good idea of what they weight?  Kind of lame it isn't on the Blizzard site.

 

post #144 of 461
Thread Starter 

I dont know the weight, but when I tried them, they felt relatively light, but not nearly as light as a real touring ski. They are a relatively thin ski, but with a lot of metal which offsets the weight.  I also heard that the core that they use is similar to Dynafit skis, so fairly lighweight. Of course the overall touring weight is more dependent on a bindings you put on it.  

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post #145 of 461

Search the forums for 2011 / 12 ski catalogs that were updated not long ago... Blizzard is in there and they may document the weight there.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2 ski View Post




Correct you are sir, so can someone give me a good idea of what they weight?  Kind of lame it isn't on the Blizzard site.

 



 

post #146 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytierney View Post

Search the forums for 2011 / 12 ski catalogs that were updated not long ago... Blizzard is in there and they may document the weight there.
 



 


I did and didn't find any catalogs. Point me in the right direction if you know where they are. Thanks

 

post #147 of 461

http://blogski.eu/?page_id=41  - you can change language on the right.  Blizzard's catalog is listed.

post #148 of 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytierney View Post

http://blogski.eu/?page_id=41  - you can change language on the right.  Blizzard's catalog is listed.



Just saw it. But no weights listed. Thanks anyways



Catalog 2011-2012 Blizzard

post #149 of 461

So how does the Bonafide compare w/ Sultan 94 to those have spent some time on both?

post #150 of 461
Thread Starter 

Not much time, but quality demo time on both.   I passed on the S94 and if everything goes according to a plan I am picking up a pair of Bonafides.  You can look at my reviews for the detailed impressions of both at the time of demo, but here is what I think now:

 

Sultan 94 is fundamentally an "old-school" shape ski, with only minimal amount of "marketing" rocker, I found it to be a very quick and nimble ski for its width, but Dynastar achieved it by giving the ski a lot of sidecut relative to ProRider and softening it relative to Mythic, and what suffered in the process was the top end performance.  I found the ski nervous at speeds and kinda hooky.  It will be a great ski for smaller size or lower-speed expert and advanced intermediate.

 

Bonafide is different mostly because it is a new school tip and tail rocker ski, and that construction makes it quick and nimble without sacrificing the top end stability.  What surprised me was that rocker didn't have much impact on hard snow performance, the Bone flat out ripped.  

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