New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

MA of my son

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

post #2 of 29
Thread Starter 

0_0_7599a64807af105cddd9678738236e9a_1Any thoughts and input would be appreciated.  

 

Here's some more pix of his progression in skiing, http://pjgrossman.phanfare.com/3493028

 

I just discovered this great forum and thought I'd ask...

 

He's very coach-able, but like any 8 year old, there's not much patience and there is a very small window of opportunity to get the info in.  I've been teaching and coaching for about 25 years and while I understand and think I can teach skiing pretty well, 'brevity is an art,' and I'm no Picasso....

 

Thanks so much!

 

Jim

post #3 of 29

Are you sure that pic isn't of Ted Shred dressed up like your son?  

 

The pics of his progression said it all.  Good work!!!!

post #4 of 29

I think you need a bigger challenge than coaching your son.  How about moving to the east coast and coaching a 51 y/o to ski like that?  At least my attention span is longer biggrin.gif.

 

You've done an excellent job with your son.  Your real challenge is keeping him motivated about skiing.  Coaching your own kids and keeping the intersted and motivated is a higher skill set than just coaching kids.

 

Happy to see folks so involved in the sport and racing joining the forum.  It's a great place to be.

 

Ken

post #5 of 29

Really powerful and fluid skiing Buey!  At 8 yrs. old, it's obvious he's got the gene, the desire and the support to take those turns to the podium.  The crop of young Sun Valley skiers is deep IMO, the mountain just seems to pull the potential out of them.

 

I won't add any MA, as I'm out of my league.  This board is stuffed with talent and hopefully a few of the racing "Arc-Arc" carving experts will comment. 

 

Nice job taking the video BTW, that's not easy to keep the skier in the frame that close and it's quite steady.   Did you ski backwards down the run?

post #6 of 29

Narrow the stance up, work on foot tipping instead of throwing the body into the center of the turn, and move away from the push-off to transition and you'll have yourself even more of a ripping skier than you already do.

post #7 of 29

More outside ski pressure?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

Narrow the stance up, work on foot tipping instead of throwing the body into the center of the turn, and move away from the push-off to transition and you'll have yourself even more of a ripping skier than you already do.



 

post #8 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

More outside ski pressure?


Might turn into a result or byproduct of the above, but I wouldn't focus on it... instead train to allow for it. Kids can take instructions very literally and "more outside ski pressure" to an eight-year-old may turn into stomping and pushing on the outside ski even more - opposite of what you'd really be aiming for in their skiing. Narrowing the stance for this little guy will solve a lot because it will take away a lot of the wedge residuals that he is still relying on.

 

post #9 of 29
Thread Starter 

smile.gif

post #10 of 29

the kid is skiing awesomely, I wouldn't overload him with technique at this point.  I would focus on tactics, intent, and terrain versatility and keep him racing!

post #11 of 29

Ya, get him into the pipe and park. There's way more money in it than racing.

post #12 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

Ya, get him into the pipe and park. There's way more money in it than racing.



Those who race, don't do it for the money. Even those on the WC.

post #13 of 29
Thread Starter 

Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post

Are you sure that pic isn't of Ted Shred dressed up like your son?  

 

The pics of his progression said it all.  Good work!!!!

smile.gif
 

Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

I think you need a bigger challenge than coaching your son.  How about moving to the east coast and coaching a 51 y/o to ski like that?  At least my attention span is longer biggrin.gif.

 

You've done an excellent job with your son.  Your real challenge is keeping him motivated about skiing.  Coaching your own kids and keeping the intersted and motivated is a higher skill set than just coaching kids.

 

Happy to see folks so involved in the sport and racing joining the forum.  It's a great place to be.

 

Ken

Ken, sounds great, except for the "moving out to the east coast" part...  You should move out west here to SV.  I coach the master's race clinic here and have lots of 50 and + that way too much engage my loquaciousness...  But we sure do have fun!

 

I'd love to expand this thread to the much more important and tough point you raise, the "real challenge is keeping him motivated..." Now that's the key!  Any input would be very much appreciated!  At the core to my approach is reinforcing for him that the reason he skis well or wins races isn't because of some 'god given talent' but because he works really hard at trying to get better each turn of each run of each day and because we put lots of days on the snow; his goal this year is to ski 100 days and he'll probably achieve it...  Of course I'm afraid of "pushing" and burn out, but I hope I've found a healthy balance.  Obviously fun is key!  And the first, second and third reason for being out there.  But I also stress to him that someone who can have 'fun' when the feel shitty and the conditions 'suck' is someone who possess one of, if not the most important skills for living a great life, not just for being a good ski racer.  I'll try to repost the video with the original sound of me 'yelling' at him.  I'm guessing that out of context, people may find this borders on the 'pushing' side.  I hope not.  To me it's 'real time' feedback and encouragement and immediate positive reinforcement for great turns.  It's how I teach and most of my clients respond well to it, to the point of saying they can still hear me in the their heads yelling "HUP" even years after taking a lesson with me.  I might like to talk, but I sure as hell don't like to stand around doing it...  As well, every week or so, I check in with to ask if he likes it or it bothers him.  So far, so good, but I'm sure there will come a time in the future....  I also tell him, just because I'm telling him to do something, doesn't make it right.  I always want him to try to do what I ask, and then, if it doesn't feel right to him or make him faster, fine.  And I encourage him to work towards the day when he discovers something about skiing that I don't know and that he can teach me...
 

 

post #14 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGrossman View Post
  And I encourage him to work towards the day when he discovers something about skiing that I don't know and that he can teach me...


Jim,

 

This is something that worked well with my daughter.  She's a pretty good skier that loves to race...now and again.  Loves to train...now and again. She's 13 and gets Golds in NASTAR without much effort.  Our deal is that I'll coach her a little but any lessons or "in class" coaching, comes from some one else.  My wife says we are too similar to spend that much time together biggrin.gif.  Anyway, last year she was in the level 7 after school program (mainly for the social aspect of skiing with her friends) and the instructor did a fantastic job and teaching the kids to ski bumps.  They loved it.  Later that night, since I suck at bumps, I told her to teach my what she was taught.  One, she did an incredible job and two, she loved doing it.  Since that night over a year ago, she's been saying she want's to be an instructor.  Don't wait for him to discover something you don't know.  Have him show you how to do something.  He'll learn from it too.  Just pretend you forgot.  He might even start looking for things to teach you.

 

Another thing we have set up is my wife is the fun meter monitor.  She'll let me know if I'm pushing too much or its becoming a chore.  Unfortunately, she's been sick the last couple weeks (including all of winter break) and I hooked a gate and tore my acl/mcl, so there isn't much skiing right now.

 

Ken

post #15 of 29

Narrow the stance, more tipping and less weight for the inside ski.

 

External motivation is useful but does not compare to internal motivation.

post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post





Those who race, don't do it for the money. Even those on the WC.


Beer! We used to race for beer and of course, bragging rights. T-Shirts, bindings, skis, poles, whatever happened to be the prize of the night.

 

I agree anyhow. same with bumpers. Searching for that perfect run then trying to replicate or better it.

 


 

 

post #17 of 29

Actually, I think the kid has real talent as I'm sure you already know. But, most times it's better not to coach or teach your own kids. My experience is it's always better to let someone else you feel quailfied to do that. Kids don't listen at home, they're certainly not going to on the slopes.

post #18 of 29


That's the answer I was looking for! Narrow stance,thanks HS. Good job Jim your son skis well,cool. Off to do an Adaptive youth this AM. Have fun skiers and be safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post




Might turn into a result or byproduct of the above, but I wouldn't focus on it... instead train to allow for it. Kids can take instructions very literally and "more outside ski pressure" to an eight-year-old may turn into stomping and pushing on the outside ski even more - opposite of what you'd really be aiming for in their skiing. Narrowing the stance for this little guy will solve a lot because it will take away a lot of the wedge residuals that he is still relying on.

 



 

post #19 of 29
Thread Starter 

Updated MA for my son.  Here's some new pix.  What are your thoughts? http://pjgrossman.phanfare.com/50937950_0_c642465f5df71d977b8c35e4e393c7f6_10_0_fc2fe754452e42391e9e0f0c0bc8ac42_10_0_dac291da5f0d5a1e1149a069c425f052_10_0_ce6ba7cd8114511eccb7fa5ab26f3036_10_0_f19c490685469e225396b0a463f617aa_10_0_a7c85c44f38faa9d0e65aeb25953a9cf_1

 

Lots more... http://pjgrossman.phanfare.com/5093795

 

Thanks!  

 

Jim

 

post #20 of 29

That face!  Priceless.  Good job father of a future Olympian.icon14.gif


Edited by Richie-Rich - 4/26/11 at 8:01am
post #21 of 29

Wow, great skiing. The 8 year old shows a huge jump in awareness and intent.

Prescription?

Have him ski bumps with feet close together. You can't get away so much with taking postions in bumps.

What age was the video, 7? It seems like he's advanced a lot since that. He's moving downhill into the new turn.

In the video he definitey ends up sinking into the skis in an overly wide stance.

post #22 of 29
Thread Starter 

Thanks!  Very good to hear.  Confirms my thinking and approach.  But always important to have reflected back and seen in different ways...

 

Video was from mid-season.  Pix from last weekend.  

 

Bumps have been a struggle know for years with him, with some decent breakthroughs this year.  One was spurred by me finally breaking down and getting him a pair of fat skis: Atomic Mini Bent Chetlers.  That definitely got him out in the powder and junk and bumps more.  And of course the more he skis in all kinds of terrain like that, the better he does; both there and back on the groomed as well.  

 

There is another huge learning tool/aid that I developed and used with him that I believe made dramatic improvements with his skiing, again both in the bumps and on the groomed, resulting in two breakthrough moments in the last two weeks.  And your comments confirm what I experienced.  

 

Compare his skiing in these pix taking over the last month and let me know your thoughts.  

 

http://pjgrossman.phanfare.com/5062572  A month ago at last race of the year.  

http://pjgrossman.phanfare.com/5085779  About a week ago after the first breakthrough.  

And http://pjgrossman.phanfare.com/5093795#imageID=126521276 from Sunday, last day of the year after the second breakthough...

 

And this is video from the last weekend,

 

post #23 of 29

Your son is a great skier. Coaching kids is different to coaching adults. Kids grow and go through different development stages both physically and mentally. Some of the photos are awsome. I also like the way he "dropps his hips" into the turn. Good to see you focus on that. But there is a down side to learing to ski with modern carving skis. I call it the lost generation. Its skiers that learn to turn by tipping. This is the correct way for carving on a gromer but in bumps, just like you veryfied yourself, or powder it doesent work. I have been teaching my students and own kids bumps for the last couple of years. Got inspired a bit by Nail and had them do short turns on the groomer and run the zipper line in the bumps. Great improvement in overall skiing ability and racing as well. That way they learned how to "unweitght" and "turn their feet" in order to turn.

 

BTW, my regular size son is 9 and he has been on 121 Heads for the last two seasons but for next year I bought him a pair of Atomic sl12 130 that he did not like at all. Maybe it was becasue they were longer than he was used to. He liked the same length Nordicas though. What do you think? I see that your boy is on Blizzards and Nordicas. Any thaughts?

post #24 of 29

 

I disagree with the emphasis on dropping the hips. It's become a thing unto itself instead of developing from the turn. If you want to get to those positions, then work on big carves where that can develop in time.

Well, first off, he is 8, and lots of people would love to be able to do what he does. He has superb turn entry.

 

Still, it still looks a bit like he's learning to take positions. at certain points in the turn, and a lot of it stems from - dropping the hips and stance too wide. Possibly some of this is just because of his 8 year old physiology, but I'm not sure emphasizing dropping hips works towards your goal.

 

 

His stance is often beyond hip width.  Because of the wide width, at the large photo below, he has to get way down behind his inside knee. It's a bit like he's in a hole instead of inside the turn. This also places a lot of pressure on the inside ski which just further puts him in the hole that he just has to ride out . It even shows up in the reaction of the arms which is a bit of a surrender to the force of being pushed back. The first two frames he's looking good, then he gets into the hole. Even in the first frame though, you can see he's wide stance width is setting the whole excessive inside ski pressure up. The inside ski is taking over and the wide width with dropping the hips towards the snow gets him in the hole. It also forces him to be overly square to the skis. It's really the only position he can be in to handle all those forces.

 

 

Possibly by working on "dropping the hips" when there isn't sufficient angles built up yet, is just leading to the reliance on an overly wide stance. If you drop inside a narrow stance and you don't have enough speed/angles yet, it will be too unbalanced. So wide is comfortable.

 

I'd be interested in what Rick has to say. I'd say stop working on dropping the hips as such an early move.

 

Work on making big, complete turns that even go way uphill. At some point in those turns it will be much more natural to get way inside.

In fact, doing S turns would be good. Do a big turn that goes uphill - but at an angle. (sideways 'S'), till you almost have no speed. At that point you'l be standing and have released to a flat ski. Allow the momentum to bring you downhill with just gently guiding them. No sudden twists, if you nail it you almost have to do nothing. Then back downhill and repeat.

 

 

Bumps would be good. Bumps with wide stance = disaster but common with kids. Work on narrow stance bumps. Before that short turns.

In general though, do a lot of gliding and just keep it fun.

 

 

He really looks great though!

 

 

Large photo is the 4th frame.

 

edit; ok, the photos didn't come out like they looked.

 

 
Image-1431718-126521259-2-Thumbnail_0_be8488947697e955e4721b064d0286fe_1
Image-1431718-126521276-2-Thumbnail_0_637fa63c8f63a5e2d26773ff863337d0_1
Image-1431718-126521297-2-Thumbnail_0_6099e221ab5495136ceb16ccd6cdd47e_1
Image-1431718-126521310-2-Thumbnail_0_f643f4b50c953ad8692a2fd99579b388_1
Image-1431718-126521331-2-Thumbnail_0_5ebf1a89a5cce2c78acec5ac2e01490b_1
Image-1431718-126521352-2-Thumbnail_0_6d8b82b284cdb7960b3fd7ee6936776a_1
Image-1431718-126521365-2-Thumbnail_0_a3257cb6f9d4797e1185339ad2c42d27_1
Image-1431718-126521379-2-Thumbnail_0_80e8747f6367ffe12c0bec494eef8c52_1
Image-1431718-126521395-2-Thumbnail_0_946ff672d2f8827c6e02d104e9871a37_1

 

 

 

Click to View Full-Screen Image

 

 

 

post #25 of 29

Great skiing for an 8-year old. However, assuming that you are racing I would focus on flexing to release next. This turn is too slow in SL gates.

post #26 of 29

TOC, I dont think that focusing on dropping that wide stance is that important. That is something that will mature over time. I allways advice kids to use a comfortable stance. For some its a wide stance and for some its a narrow stance. It all boils down to how fast he is on the racing track. And in the end in 99 cases out of a 100 it boils down to will he keep on skiing at 200% and stay out of serious injury. My advice is dont fix what is not broken. The wide stance enables the kids to quickly develop edge angles that are very impressive. Note that they were wedging a few years back. Here is a 6y old:

 

6yold.jpg

post #27 of 29

This is a great thread--thanks, JimGrossman, for sharing the images for discussion! Your son really does show an extraordinary talent.

 

Like Tog, I would love to see him expand his technical repertoire through the use of a broader array of tasks and tactical drills, rather than a heavy focus on technique. He clearly likes the feel of his edges and has developed a taste for gliding, speed, and G-forces that is exceptional at any age. He does tend to drop severely down toward his skis in the belly of the turn, which develops high edge angles and solid pressure to bend his skis, but then he tends just to ride that ski where it takes him across the hill until he loses pressure, then he starts a new turn. Technically, I actually preferred his movements in the first, older, clip that you posted. In the later clips, as Tog has suggested, it appears as if he is getting a little "posed," striving for positions, focusing on technique, rather than on the purpose of his already-quite-advanced technical ability. He achieves extreme angulation (lateral angles), on top of the high degree inclination (leaning into the turn for balance) that results from the high speed and tight turn radius he tends to ski. That's a great display of skill and balance, but the edge angles that result from these movements--especially in the lower part of the turn, where the slope angle adds even further to his edge angle on the snow--can be too much at times. Indeed, those little slalom skis probably have a sidecut radius of less than ten meters, so when he tips them to such extreme edge angles they try to carve very tight turns. It will be too tight for some conditions (ice) and many situations--especially longer-radius turns. 

 

My suggestion would be to explore a broader range of turn sizes and shapes, particularly longer-radius turns and turns that bring him more across the hill, as well as turns that are more complete, even going back uphill.  Such tasks would require him (is his name PJ?) to vary his timing and develop more directional movements with his body. Tog described a great exercise that I like to call "Horizontal S's"--basically short straight runs down the fall line linked by s-shaped tracks that bring him across and back uphill before diving back down the hill to the next straight run, like this:

 

Horizontal S sm.jpg

You can do this exercise either "freestyle," or by setting actual gates, two per turn. Don't make it easy! The idea is to require that he do more than just ride his skis around an easy arc, and that he develop timing, edging, and pressure control virtuosity and adaptability. He will need to direct his movements through the finish of the turn so that they carry his momentum across and up the hill, and he'll need to use more patience in developing pressure on his skis in the new turn. It's a good challenge, and one I'm quite certain he's up to!

 

Any task that requires him to make turns of different sizes and shapes than what is "natural," or that carry him farther across the hill than he is used to, will develop the versatility and subtlety that I'm looking for. Rhythm changes, turns across the fall line, "corridors," turns back uphill...anything that throws off his "natural" rhythm will do wonders. Another of my favorites--one which you might both have fun with--is for one person to lay down some smooth, clean tracks, while the second skier tries to make tracks outside the first skier's tracks. You can do it with more than two skiers, too, and it becomes increasingly challenging for each successive skier. Here's an example of the tracks that might result (four skiers), where the first skier used a snowmobile track as a guideline for his turns:

 

reaching tracks2 PS DSC_1310 sm crbb.jpg

 

Another variation is to find a good, quiet run (not always easy) where he can make a few runs chasing his own tracks, each time trying to go wider than before. Since only the first run would be his "normal" turns, it would very effectively develop versatility.

 

Have fun, but please don't get too technical at this stage. Fun drills will hold his attention, while giving much-needed purpose to his turns that will develop his technique naturally. Don't hesitate to ski other terrain and conditions as well--particularly moguls. Keep us posted!

 

Best regards,

Bob Barnes

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #28 of 29

Good posting Bob. In europa it is fearly popular with so called carving courses where you can choose from 3 lines. Its not hard to set up but it takes a lot of space. Kind of the same drill you are talking about. 

 

I also think its good not to be too technical particulary with own kids. I dont coach or instruct my own boyz for example. We just ski and have fun. Milidge and fun are as important as technique. They are in ski teams where they have coaches helping them with technique. They also learn from each other. A racing team is a very good environment to grow as a skier. They learn a lot from each other and they get feedback in many different forms. Coach, clock, competitors, friends, rivals, spectators, personell etc. At some point when you are skiing with privat students you get to the point where nothing happens. You just keep repeating the same things over and over. In a group setting the coach focus is not allways 100% on one student and the student can relax.

post #29 of 29

Yes, TDK6--those "carving courses" had a brief appearance in the U.S., around the time of the first radical sidecut shapes like the Elan SCX and Hypercarve. We had competitions like waterskiing, where you had to finish the course within a designated time, and you got more points for rounding the wider-set, more across-the-hill "buoys." Fun, and good for your skiing! Unfortunately, their popularity was short-lived. Apparently, few people really wanted to learn to carve, and of those, even fewer wanted to learn to do anything more than just tipping and riding the edge. 

 

But there's no reason we can't simulate the drill. I often use things like snowmobile tracks, lift-cable shadows, or any little objects I can see on the snow--snow chunks, shadows, pine cones, snowboarders...(just kidding)--to give my turns "purpose," and to force me to work a little harder to accomplish a task, rather than just "make turns." With access to gates, stubbies, or brushes, it's easy to create all sorts of tactical drills that will develop strong technique, skill, and versatility. But even without gates, with a little imagination, there are lots of fun things to play with. 

 

I've put together an illustration of a few more common tactical drills. All fun. All good at prying the mind away from the overly technical focus that can paralyze us or make us robotic, and providing the purpose that brings out our best!

 

Tactical_Drills_sm.jpg

 

Best regards,

Bob

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching