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How many runs does hard flouro last?

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 

Hello,

 

I know that liquid flouro is said to last "only one run."   Well, how long does hard flouro last?  I have the high-performance T-series from Racewax, and I am wondering if I can ski around for a few hours before a race, and still get decent performance?

 

So far in NASTAR, it didn't seem to wear off after 16 runs, but I just want to double check.

 

 

I am SOOO hoping it does officially last all day, because then I can wax the night before and not have to worry on the slopes.

 

Thanks in advance for replies.

post #2 of 19

Serious racers will have their skis tuned and waxed an only use them for the race runs. Skiing prior to the race on the skis may help them be faster scraping and brushing wasn't done thoroughly, however it is best to properly prep the skis with scraping and brushing for a more consistent and predictable performance. Well prepped skis don't appear to have wax on them and look shiny. There is still wax there, but you are looking for a very minor amount on the base this is practically invisible to the eye.

 

Skiing a ski thorughout the course of the day is fine unless you are running gates and care about the tenths and hundredths. If your race day consists of free skiing, then running a course and you don't have 'trainers' and 'racers', then use overlays before you get in the start to get the utmost in performance. If you are just fun racing and nothing is on the line, you'll be fine skiing your skis and racing them without overlays.

 

There are many more factors that affect a ski's performance than wax. The base structure contributes significantly to speed and one structure may be fast on a certain snow and slow on another. The edges play a role as well. Pitted and/or scratched edges are slow. Pristine edges are fast. Sharp edges are necessary for hard snow, but will create more drag in soft snow than edges that have been slightly detuned.

 

I am a serious racer at times. When I race a DH, I inspect and free ski on different skis than I plan to race on. I might take a single free run on my race skis depending on the conditions but usually not. I will overlay the skis and put them on when I am one or two racers from getting into the start to preserve the overlays. For NASTAR or town league races, I just free ski my racers and get in the course, usually eschewing overlays.

 

What it boils down to is if you want superior performance in the course, you wax, scrape, brush, overlay and race only on the skis. A day of skiing will make a difference on the speed of a ski but it will generally only be noticeable while under the clock.

post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Serious racers will have their skis tuned and waxed an only use them for the race runs. Skiing prior to the race on the skis may help them be faster scraping and brushing wasn't done thoroughly, however it is best to properly prep the skis with scraping and brushing for a more consistent and predictable performance. Well prepped skis don't appear to have wax on them and look shiny. There is still wax there, but you are looking for a very minor amount on the base this is practically invisible to the eye.

 

Skiing a ski thorughout the course of the day is fine unless you are running gates and care about the tenths and hundredths. If your race day consists of free skiing, then running a course and you don't have 'trainers' and 'racers', then use overlays before you get in the start to get the utmost in performance. If you are just fun racing and nothing is on the line, you'll be fine skiing your skis and racing them without overlays.

 

There are many more factors that affect a ski's performance than wax. The base structure contributes significantly to speed and one structure may be fast on a certain snow and slow on another. The edges play a role as well. Pitted and/or scratched edges are slow. Pristine edges are fast. Sharp edges are necessary for hard snow, but will create more drag in soft snow than edges that have been slightly detuned.

 

I am a serious racer at times. When I race a DH, I inspect and free ski on different skis than I plan to race on. I might take a single free run on my race skis depending on the conditions but usually not. I will overlay the skis and put them on when I am one or two racers from getting into the start to preserve the overlays. For NASTAR or town league races, I just free ski my racers and get in the course, usually eschewing overlays.

 

What it boils down to is if you want superior performance in the course, you wax, scrape, brush, overlay and race only on the skis. A day of skiing will make a difference on the speed of a ski but it will generally only be noticeable while under the clock.


Thank you MastersRacer...  what I'm thinking about is NASTAR Nationals (not that it "matters" but I love NASTAR racing and would like to do well).  I am in the 21-29 Platinum so the tenths do matter.

 

I don't know if am willing/able to take an extra pair of skis for practical purposes.  I'd have to buy another plane-ski bag.  Plus, the skis I'd be free skiing on kind of suck compared to my cheater GS race skis (latter is Fischer WC RC Pro, former is Fischer Progressor 7+).

 

I may very well do that, but if I don't are you still saying that even hard flouro will wear off just as quickly as liquid flouro? 

 

This will only be an issue the second day of the event (the first day it looks like we race first thing in morning).  I'm not sure if I feel like shelling out extra cash for liquid flouro an going through trouble of applying pre-run MID-DAY.

 

 

Last question:  assuming I did go the route of doing an overlay the second day at lunchtime out on the hill, all I could realistically bring is a cork, two brushes, and whatever liquid wax... what specific overlay might you recommend given those resources?

post #4 of 19

Maximum effect is acheived with the wax, scrape, brush, overlay sequence with no skiing before racing. The hard wax (flouro or otherwise) from hot waxing will be very effective for a while, a day, two days; depends on the wax, the skiing, the prior ski prep, etc. The overlays are good for just one run, maybe, two, but in serious racing you'd apply your overlays for each run. For your racing, I'd say a hot wax each night would serve you well. If you are in a tough class, or are fighting for a tenth or two, I'd apply the overlays each race run to get the ultimate performance. If you don't have access to hotwaxing your skis for day 2, I'd definitely use overlays to be competitive.

 

I use TOKO products. For an effective overlay, I'd suggest using Jet Stream. Red and/or Yellow depending on the snow temps you expect to see. For on the slope, I'd take a combo brass/nylon brush, the Jet Stream and a cork. You'll have scraped the skis clean and brushed them thoroughly before you get to the slopes. Lightly brass brush the skis at the start to remove any hard wax that will have been squeezed out of the cold ski since the last brushing, wiping off any dust. Rub on the Jet Stream to cover the base from tip to tail for at least 50% coverage. Rub in with the cork. This will spread the overlay to cover the entire ski in JS. Try not to rub off, but rub in to the ski. Then use the nylon brush from tip to tail to finish the treatment. Set the skis aside and walk them to the start so they have maximum 'juice' when you are in the start.

 

Warm weather will create problems that you can easily avoid with a little preparation. Consider ice on the sidewalls and topsheets. Keep your skis in a place where they won't get hot from the sun. Hot skis placed in the snow will eventually develop ice on the sidewalls which creates considerable drag.  A clean topsheet will insure that you don't have a pound of snow on a tip or tail to affect the ski. Use a plastic scraper to clear off the ice. You can also use the scraper to clean the soles of your boots. Another trick if you can't find shade, is to bury your skis in powder leaving just the binding exposed to find them again. Wipe all snow off when you pull them out of the snow. You can bury the skis before or after juicing. If after juicing, just don't slide them around until you put them on right before your start.

 

Good luck racing at Nationals.

 

BTW, I presume you are stripping down to a suit for the races. If not, don't worry about the wax.

post #5 of 19

I've wondered as well, can you really tell. Well, it turns out you can. We had a Super-G a few weeks ago and my skis were running fast! There was a little uphill to get to the start of the course. On the first time down to slip the course, I went flying up and had to power-wedge to keep from flying through the start area. Next run, I had to slow down, but not nearly as much. On the final run down for my race start, I just made it to the top without skating. So yeah, it is noticeable.

post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 

MastersRacer, thanks alot for your second post; that was really helpful!  And yes, I will definitely be running the gates in my GS suit.

 

 

To epic:  just so I know to what you were referring, did your SG skis have liquid flouro overlay on them, or just hard flouro?

post #7 of 19

It was Swix HF6.

post #8 of 19

MastersRacer has it right, but IMO I prefer Swix Cera F Rocket Spray.  Just remember to brush your skis hard before applying, then cork it in good.  Also makes sure the spray doesn't touch your skin while applying because the overlays can give you a nasty chemical burn if you get a fair amount on a section of ski (done it before and it hurts a ton, but's a story for another day).

Good luck!

post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceDude View Post

MastersRacer has it right, but IMO I prefer Swix Cera F Rocket Spray.  Just remember to brush your skis hard before applying, then cork it in good.  Also makes sure the spray doesn't touch your skin while applying because the overlays can give you a nasty chemical burn if you get a fair amount on a section of ski (done it before and it hurts a ton, but's a story for another day).

Good luck!



Thanks RaceDude.  Yeah, with your post and MastersRacer's advice on the liquid flouro, I'm seriously considering doing that regardless of whether or not I free-ski before the one afternoon race.  I hope I can track some bottles down in Winter Park, as I've heard that stuff explodes in luggage.

 

Thanks for the reminder about flouro's toxicity, flouro is nasty stuff.  I even treat my hard flouro bars as if they were hardcore chemicals (I always use thick gloves, and vacuum the hell out of the hard scrapings in my work area when finished)

post #10 of 19

The Toko Jet Stream is a block, not a liquid. It is very cost efficient as a can of Toko Helix (spray liquid) costs about $100 and you might get 10 - 15 applications out of it. The block of Jet Stream (rub on block) costs about $70 and lasts a very long time as none is lost to overspray (can't keep track of uses as it lasts multiple seasons). And it is air travel safe. These products aren't the kind of thing you can count on finding at a local shop without looking around. A race specialty shop will have lots of options. You might try one of our sponsors.

post #11 of 19

Yeah given how compressed and flammable 100% liquid flouro is, checking it in your ski bag is a very bad idea.  Carrying it on the plane shouldn't give you too much trouble though.  I would def call some shops though, I have had much better results with the liquids than the hard blocks so I really think it's worth it.  That being said, practice on it.  The first time I put Cera F on I almost skidded out of the course because it went too fast, I just wasn't prepared for it.  If you get a chance try to run a practice course with it on (whether it's liquid or hard) and if not free ski a run with it to get the feel of it.  People will look at you like you're stupid when you put it on to run a practice course, but when you beat them they have a whole different look on their face biggrin.gif

Make sure you've got nice edges, and HF wax on your boards too

 

 

StartHaus has some spray for sale for $75 which is an awesome price http://shop.starthaus.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=602&IdCategory=0

post #12 of 19


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceDude View Post

Yeah given how compressed and flammable 100% liquid flouro is, checking it in your ski bag is a very bad idea.  Carrying it on the plane shouldn't give you too much trouble though.  I would def call some shops though, I have had much better results with the liquids than the hard blocks so I really think it's worth it.  That being said, practice on it.  The first time I put Cera F on I almost skidded out of the course because it went too fast, I just wasn't prepared for it.  If you get a chance try to run a practice course with it on (whether it's liquid or hard) and if not free ski a run with it to get the feel of it.  People will look at you like you're stupid when you put it on to run a practice course, but when you beat them they have a whole different look on their face biggrin.gif

Make sure you've got nice edges, and HF wax on your boards too

 

 

StartHaus has some spray for sale for $75 which is an awesome price http://shop.starthaus.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=602&IdCategory=0


Don't bother to try to carry it on, it will end up in the TSA bin

 

post #13 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post


 


Don't bother to try to carry it on, it will end up in the TSA bin

 


Yeah, I'm not going to attempt it.  I think for this particular event I'm going to buy Swix Uniturbo (a solid pre-run flouro rub-on), and of course place it deep in my checked bag.

 

post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post


 


Don't bother to try to carry it on, it will end up in the TSA bin

 


I hope you didn't find out by experience.

post #15 of 19


Ohhh I forgot about them, what a pain...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post


 


Don't bother to try to carry it on, it will end up in the TSA bin

 



 

post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 

Yeah, so I'm all set to go with both Cera F Uniturbo and WetTurbo...  I just have four questions...

 

-There is ample conflicting info out there... do I indeed just rub these on and CORK them in (as some places suggest), or is brushing with nylon at the end better?  Some places say just spread as rub in with synthetic (or natural) hand-cork (TOKO website implies this), other places say horsehair is used for Cera F, other places (and MastersRacer, who sounds like he knows whats up), advises nylon brush after corking.  I'm terribly confused.

 

-Secondly, can I do this outdoors on a base area with no vises or other support apparatuses?

 

-Will any base wax support the overlays, or is there an optimum?  I will have warm weather hydrocarbon, warm weather flouro-moly, and a series of high-performance solid flouros to choose from for base layers????

 

-Does Cera F--if left on many days-- damage the base?  I wanted to practice applying it on my skis today when I waxed them (won't be skiing again til at least friday), but remembered reading flouros damage the base, or something.  Would it be best to practice on old skis I plan to never use again, or is this so easy that practicing is silly?

post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

Yeah, so I'm all set to go with both Cera F Uniturbo and WetTurbo...  I just have four questions...

 

-There is ample conflicting info out there... do I indeed just rub these on and CORK them in (as some places suggest), or is brushing with nylon at the end better?  Some places say just spread as rub in with synthetic (or natural) hand-cork (TOKO website implies this), other places say horsehair is used for Cera F, other places (and MastersRacer, who sounds like he knows whats up), advises nylon brush after corking.  I'm terribly confused. MR: I was talking about how I apply Toko Jet Stream. Cera could be different, although when I used Cera F powder I corked the nylon brushed. Someone will chime in on that.

 

-Secondly, can I do this outdoors on a base area with no vises or other support apparatuses? MR: absolutely. Find a place where no one is kicking around snow and you can place your skis binding down. You may want to dig out spaces for the bindings or just mush them into the snow to create a platform. Then do your application.

 

-Will any base wax support the overlays, or is there an optimum?  I will have warm weather hydrocarbon, warm weather flouro-moly, and a series of high-performance solid flouros to choose from for base layers???? MR: you can pretty much mix and match your hot wax and your overlays.

 

-Does Cera F--if left on many days-- damage the base?  I wanted to practice applying it on my skis today when I waxed them (won't be skiing again til at least friday), but remembered reading flouros damage the base, or something.  Would it be best to practice on old skis I plan to never use again, or is this so easy that practicing is silly? MR: This has been discussed at some length here on Epic. I believe from what I have read that flouros will not damage the base.


The time is approaching! Be fast!
 

 

post #18 of 19

What he said^ plus two thing.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

Yeah, so I'm all set to go with both Cera F Uniturbo and WetTurbo...  I just have four questions...

 

-There is ample conflicting info out there... do I indeed just rub these on and CORK them in (as some places suggest), or is brushing with nylon at the end better?  Some places say just spread as rub in with synthetic (or natural) hand-cork (TOKO website implies this), other places say horsehair is used for Cera F, other places (and MastersRacer, who sounds like he knows whats up), advises nylon brush after corking.  I'm terribly confused. If you're using Cera F: brush your bases w/ nylong, THEN cork Cera F on.  DO NOT brush after applying the overlay.

 

-Secondly, can I do this outdoors on a base area with no vises or other support apparatuses?

 

-Will any base wax support the overlays, or is there an optimum?  I will have warm weather hydrocarbon, warm weather flouro-moly, and a series of high-performance solid flouros to choose from for base layers????

 

-Does Cera F--if left on many days-- damage the base?  I wanted to practice applying it on my skis today when I waxed them (won't be skiing again til at least friday), but remembered reading flouros damage the base, or something.  Would it be best to practice on old skis I plan to never use again, or is this so easy that practicing is silly?  As long as you have an ample amount of wax on your skis, it shouldn't damage the base.  Either way, it's not that hard.  I mean I figured out how to do it (given I did burn myself the first time) but I'm sure you'll be fine



 

post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post




I hope you didn't find out by experience.


smile.gif  Fortunately not.  As a scotsman a loss like that would hurt hard   frown.gif

 

However as someone who flies every week, there are various liquid toiletries  etc in my bag that I never bother to take out and which go through the screening without question every time.....  TSA = Security theater

 

 

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