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Technique Versus Ability - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyymc View Post

 Given that, it's probably best if you could post video and pictures of her. Just so we can do a movement analysis.

 


I have no idea if she has any of that stuff, but I know she does post stuff on TGR
 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post



Does she want to teach at the PSIA level 1 level?I've been skiing for decades. I get people commenting on how good my skiing is when I share lift rides with strangers. I can't quite ski anything,but pretty close; when it get's up around 90 degrees, it's called hucking. I can't get past student level 6 (no pole plants). I don't care.


She just mentioned the PSIA thing in the context of the proper use of poles last weekend. She has a great day job. I am not sure if she has the right temperment to teach.
 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by iKabrex View Post




Can't zipperline bumps or hop turn on the steeps without pole plants, not to mention some other key applications of that skill.

 

Pole plants aren't for style; technique by extension is skill. Skiers are weighted on their technical ability and thus their ability to ski something properly. Certainly you might be capable of skiing things in one piece but that is not necessarily a gauge of ability. 

Bear in mind I am not trying to pick apart your daughter's skiing, just continuing on your example.


Can't speak to her zipperlining bumps or hop turning the steeps. Such activities are way above my paygrade so I have not witnessed her in those situations. And no offense taken. I agree with your skepical POV-I'd be the same way with some e-stranger making statements about one's daughter.

 

Mostly I am weighing the factors of having fun, looking decent and skiing well. Do I focus on technique before moving on to the next level? (I am told my technique is good on intermediate terrain-less so on advanced). Or do I focus on having fun and getting comfortable on steeper terrain, then work on perfecting technique? I want skiing to be fun, not a discipline. I like to play in the powder-desire to get used to steeper terrain. Goal: get used to powder/crud and steep runs, have fun. Then work on looking good. Maybe I am wrong. Thus the thread. I am interested in what people have to say. I just feel that with the way I am, if I am comfortable in a given terrain I can then focus on technique.

*******************

And @ iWill. The ski *anything* phrase is mine, not her's. What I meant by *anything* is that in my opinion and Mrs5150's opinion it seems daughter can ski anything. Kinda scary for a parent. Perhaps it is best that we lack the ability to ski on her level and therefore don't see what she does. Ignorance is bliss.
 

 


Edited by Mr5150 - 2/28/11 at 7:01pm
post #32 of 54

This reminds me of an encounter I had last summer. I coach baseball for 15 - 18 yr old boys. A dad walked up to me and tells me his boy can pitch 90 mph. I looked at the guy for a moment and replied " That's nice. But can he throw strikes?" That is difference between technique and ability and the same applies to the young lady. She may have the ability and come close in the attempt but all too often the proper technique goes out the window when the level is elevated.

 

Karl

post #33 of 54

Ah, I see.  This thread is about your skiing.  You are wondering if it's ok to attack steeper runs and just go for it even though you might not look as good as your daughter, and wonder if it's holding you back and if you should be working more on technique and worry more about how your skiing looks than what you can ski.

 

My advice: Don't worry; be happy.  All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.  Ski what you want.  Ski how you want, but take a little time each ski day to work on your skills.  Doing some drills while you ski can be fun.  Knowing more helps you ski better; the more you know the better it gets.

 

Although your skiing should get better with time, it will get better faster if you help it along a bit. 

post #34 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Ah, I see.  This thread is about your skiing.  You are wondering if it's ok to attack steeper runs and just go for it even though you might not look as good as your daughter, and wonder if it's holding you back and if you should be working more on technique and worry more about how your skiing looks than what you can ski.

 

My advice: Don't worry; be happy.  All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.  Ski what you want.  Ski how you want, but take a little time each ski day to work on your skills.  Doing some drills while you ski can be fun.  Knowing more helps you ski better; the more you know the better it gets.

 

Although your skiing should get better with time, it will get better faster if you help it along a bit. 


It is nice to be understood. Thanks.

 

Yes. I have no concerns about my daughter. Well at least when it comes to skiing.

 

Me? Late starter. This skiing thing. I want to understand what it is all about. Woulda been nice to have started at age 8. But life had it that I started at age 53. I do take comfort in having met Bud last season. Bud is a older fellow. Took up skiing when he retired at age 65. I think he is pushing 80. I was admiring his new Icelandics. He told me how well they worked in the trees. Have no idea how well he skiied. I don't really think it mattered.

 

Me? I agree with your post 100%.

 


 

 

post #35 of 54

Agree with the comment that snowboarder do it with out poles and about 8 years ago after fraturing th base of my thumb prior to X-ray I had a blast on demo Stocklis far too short with wrist guards on because I couldn't grasp a pole great fun BUT some didfficulty getting in andf out of bindings

post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post

Mostly I am weighing the factors of having fun, looking decent and skiing well. Do I focus on technique before moving on to the next level? (I am told my technique is good on intermediate terrain-less so on advanced). Or do I focus on having fun and getting comfortable on steeper terrain, then work on perfecting technique? I want skiing to be fun, not a discipline. I like to play in the powder-desire to get used to steeper terrain. Goal: get used to powder/crud and steep runs, have fun. Then work on looking good. Maybe I am wrong. Thus the thread. I am interested in what people have to say. I just feel that with the way I am, if I am comfortable in a given terrain I can then focus on technique.

 

 

Hey there, 

 

Skiing's a neat sport in that the better we get, the more varied sensations we feel, the more terrain we can manage without being completely exhausted, and the more fun we have! I always advocate taking lessons. Not for the sake of "looking good"--that's simply a by-product or observation of good skiing. The actual outcome of good skiing is staying balanced, leading to a fluid run down the hill and the ability to ski lots of different lines on a run. 

 

So from my perspective, more lessons are always good. As for the second part of your question, increases in technique correlate to increases of comfort on terrain. When I teach, I will often do an "adventure" run on something at the high end of a skier's ability, scale back the terrain for exercises, then return to the "adventure" run to allow learners to see their new skills in action. I suggest the learners keep developing technique on the easier runs rather than perpetually over-terraining themselves. 

 

Assuming you can sideslip and wedge, it's also worth charging something just beyond your ability every so often--just to get you some exposure to the "next big thing" and keep your interest alive. I got a bit bored of skiing for a while due to only drilling on (for me) flat terrain. A good injection of "yikes" can be really invigorating!

post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Can't speak to her zipperlining bumps or hop turning the steeps. Such activities are way above my paygrade so I have not witnessed her in those situations. And no offense taken. I agree with your skepical POV-I'd be the same way with some e-stranger making statements about one's daughter.

 

Mostly I am weighing the factors of having fun, looking decent and skiing well. Do I focus on technique before moving on to the next level? (I am told my technique is good on intermediate terrain-less so on advanced). Or do I focus on having fun and getting comfortable on steeper terrain, then work on perfecting technique? I want skiing to be fun, not a discipline. I like to play in the powder-desire to get used to steeper terrain. Goal: get used to powder/crud and steep runs, have fun. Then work on looking good. Maybe I am wrong. Thus the thread. I am interested in what people have to say. I just feel that with the way I am, if I am comfortable in a given terrain I can then focus on technique.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

My advice: Don't worry; be happy.  All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.  Ski what you want.  Ski how you want, but take a little time each ski day to work on your skills.  Doing some drills while you ski can be fun.  Knowing more helps you ski better; the more you know the better it gets.

 

Although your skiing should get better with time, it will get better faster if you help it along a bit. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Assuming you can sideslip and wedge, it's also worth charging something just beyond your ability every so often--just to get you some exposure to the "next big thing" and keep your interest alive. I got a bit bored of skiing for a while due to only drilling on (for me) flat terrain. A good injection of "yikes" can be really invigorating!


I want to tie all these points together by saying the sport is really about passion. If you enjoy glades, ski glades. If you enjoy cruisers, ski cruisers. If you want to be able to ski steep couloirs or flip jumps, challenge yourself on something just on the edge of or outside your comfort zone. Improving your technical finesse is best done on intermediate cruisers and black runs, and it is worth taking some time to practice edging, pole planting, and balance on a nice easy run, regardless of your ability. Technique has a correlation to ability, but after a certain point your technique is not as much of a constraint as it is during your intermediate years. To clarify, as a beginner, technique and ability are essentially the same thing. However, at a higher level you may have the ability to ski something with technique that is not immaculate. Improving your technique will allow you to ski those same runs more comfortably, easier, and better.

 

 

 

post #38 of 54

At the highest level ability IS executing technique is such a way you (fill in blank... win a race, look good, whatever)

 

 

Look at professional golf.... Tiger Woods practiced and played mechanistically with robotic precision, going through obsessive pre-round shot rituals on the practice range, and took thousands of hours of lessons.

 

On the other hand, another professional golfer, Bubba Watson, has never taken a lesson in his life.  His technique is shitty.  You know what?  He is the longest hitter in the game, won this year, and is doing quite well.

 

 

There comes a point where:  you can either ski something, or you can't.  There are going to be microscopic differences based on anatomical quantitative and qualitative differences between individuals, specific equipment used, snow conditions, etc.

 

 

 

 

An aside:  I agree with people who say this sport is all about having fun... it's like what Doug Coombs said:  "if you're not smiling, you're doing something wrong."  If you are a races, make all the gates with a fast time... that's the end of it... if you are a competitive bump skier, then obsess over technique/etc and win... otherwise, just have fun and do what makes you happy.

post #39 of 54


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

At the highest level ability IS executing technique is such a way you (fill in blank... win a race, look good, whatever)

 

 

Look at professional golf.... Tiger Woods practiced and played mechanistically with robotic precision, going through obsessive pre-round shot rituals on the practice range, and took thousands of hours of lessons.

 

On the other hand, another professional golfer, Bubba Watson, has never taken a lesson in his life.  His technique is shitty.  You know what?  He is the longest hitter in the game, won this year, and is doing quite well.

 

 

There comes a point where:  you can either ski something, or you can't.  There are going to be microscopic differences based on anatomical quantitative and qualitative differences between individuals, specific equipment used, snow conditions, etc.

 

 

 

 

An aside:  I agree with people who say this sport is all about having fun... it's like what Doug Coombs said:  "if you're not smiling, you're doing something wrong."  If you are a races, make all the gates with a fast time... that's the end of it... if you are a competitive bump skier, then obsess over technique/etc and win... otherwise, just have fun and do what makes you happy.


 

This is a poor example unless applied to ski racing. Golf is about having the lowest score possible. Technique and practice generally help you but there is the odd exception. The same is true of ski racing.

Recreational skiing is a whole other world; its not a competition and technique truly does matter if you want to ski down something properly and comfortably. You're not going to be able to get way low on edge in the back seat etc.

post #40 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iKabrex View Post


 


 

This is a poor example unless applied to ski racing. Golf is about having the lowest score possible. Technique and practice generally help you but there is the odd exception. The same is true of ski racing.

Recreational skiing is a whole other world; its not a competition and technique truly does matter if you want to ski down something properly and comfortably. You're not going to be able to get way low on edge in the back seat etc.



For me there are three factors to skiing. Three things that make it enjoyable.

 

Of course, the biggest factor is sliding down the hill.

 

But I also just like being in the snow and experiencing the mountains-the high country.

 

And then there are the social aspects-being with friends, Mrs5150 and/or the daughter and watching other skiers while drinking an overpriced beer.

 

I like to recreate and am not into the competitive. But that is just me.

post #41 of 54

Not much to add here, except for a couple of interesting anecdotes. We were skiing a pretty steep 40-degree tree'd area when a member of our group broke his carbon pole. It threw off his balance for the rest of the day, even after he stuffed the good pole into his backpack.

 

I'd agree that it's probably the arm (pole) swing that is the most important to maintaining balance. On some of the steeper pillow lines I've done, I've noticed in POVs that I'm doing the pole swing motion, even if there's no snow below my pole to physically plant the pole in (i.e. cutting an edge to drop speed on a pillow rollover before dropping onto the next one). Thinking back to these movements and lines, it's most definitely to maintain a good balance.


Edited by Brian Lindahl - 3/1/11 at 12:15pm
post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post

For me there are three factors to skiing. Three things that make it enjoyable.

 

Of course, the biggest factor is sliding down the hill.

 

But I also just like being in the snow and experiencing the mountains-the high country.

 

And then there are the social aspects-being with friends, Mrs5150 and/or the daughter and watching other skiers while drinking an overpriced beer.

 

I like to recreate and am not into the competitive. But that is just me.


And that's perfect. As long as you are comfortable about with what you're skiing, and you're not worried about being the best skier on the mountain, then doing what you do is just fine.
Technique, to me, is a set of tools to help me put together my skiing. You probably already have a lot of these tools, even if you don't know it. If you're comfortable with your toolbox, you shouldn't feel pressured to expand it unless you want a tool for every specific application. 

post #43 of 54

So, what is preferable, being a one sided pole plant wonder or being a double pole plant wonder?  th_dunno-1[1].gif

 

It's been my experience that even people that have been extremely competent skiers able to tackle most in bounds territory comfortably without  proper pole plants became better skiers once they learned to use the pole plant properly to initiate their turn motion.

 

As for daughters, I'm doing my best to keep mine away from the poles but she's only 7.  That might be more difficult when she gets past 17.

post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by iWill View Post

Having 20 years of experience and fat skis doesn't translate into an ability to ski "anything". Anyone who says they can ski "anything" has seen what anything is.

 

No matter who you are, there is something you can't ski.


You're wrong, there is one exception:

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA
 
Me: finessy charger who can ski anything

 


 

 

 

 

post #45 of 54


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iKabrex View Post




You're wrong, there is one exception:

 

 

 

 


 

 

 

 


well I found the exception today. 3 inch breakable crust on 11 inches of soft powder. IN super tight trees with drops. My head hurts.

 

for the most part though compared to the average skier anything.

 

post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


 


well I found the exception today. 3 inch breakable crust on 11 inches of soft powder. IN super tight trees with drops. My head hurts.

 

for the most part though compared to the average skier anything.

 

Oh got that was my last experience in Stowe glades. Spring melt coupled with flash freeze = crusty pow 

 

:(
 

 

post #47 of 54

Pussies. Skiing isn't fun. Now get out there and kill it. Conditions can be humbling at times even for the best off-piste skiers.

post #48 of 54

fun aside, moving ones body from the top of an inclined snow covered plane to the bottom is not necessarily skiing that plane. I cringe hearing someone say they skied something when really they only transported themselves from one point higher to another point lower, traversing, Z-ing, pin-balling, sideslipping, stopping and starting, taking all the opt-out lines and making truly ugly turns. If that's how you move around the mountain, you could do the same in boots, on a snowmobile, or snowshoes. what's the difference?

 

racers have precise, refined, flawless technique, even if they invented some of it for their own method, or they don't go fast, trust me on that.

 

and like everyone thinking said: no one skis "anything", certainly not the folks referenced in this thread. jeez! 

 

there are some ludicrous statements and claims tossed around here, ridiculous. and accepting them makes this place a sh%$ show. strange mix of instructors and ignoramuses tossing BS around.

post #49 of 54


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

fun aside, moving ones body from the top of an inclined snow covered plane to the bottom is not necessarily skiing that plane. I cringe hearing someone say they skied something when really they only transported themselves from one point higher to another point lower, traversing, Z-ing, pin-balling, sideslipping, stopping and starting, taking all the opt-out lines and making truly ugly turns. If that's how you move around the mountain, you could do the same in boots, on a snowmobile, or snowshoes. what's the difference?

 

racers have precise, refined, flawless technique, even if they invented some of it for their own method, or they don't go fast, trust me on that.

 

and like everyone thinking said: no one skis "anything", certainly not the folks referenced in this thread. jeez! 

 

there are some ludicrous statements and claims tossed around here, ridiculous. and accepting them makes this place a sh%$ show. strange mix of instructors and ignoramuses tossing BS around.


Good point Davluri. In a poetic sense, skiing without finesse or grace is not really skiing and more like bombing down the run. I at least find that a receive a large amount of satisfaction from both looking and feeling good and smooth when skiing down something, and I find this is true for a lot of people (who doesn't like to look good?)

 

post #50 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post

For me there are three factors to skiing. Three things that make it enjoyable

Of course, the biggest factor is sliding down the hill.

But I also just like being in the snow and experiencing the mountains-the high country.

And then there are the social aspects-being with friends, Mrs5150 and/or the daughter and watching other skiers while drinking an overpriced beer.

I like to recreate and am not into the competitive. But that is just me.

It's all what rocks your world.

Athletic 'Ability' is usually easy for many young people - 'Technique' becomes more important as we no longer find it easy to do stuff we did a few years (decades) back...  If she luvs skiin and being in the real world, as opposed to the goofy, stoopid stuff we all find ourselves possessed by these daze (twitter, TMZ, useless shit like that...) then it's all good...

most of our lives have a huge lack of primal awareness, being in the moment - NOW

High Peak and Steep - itz da real thang

a snowy wood - the drug of choice

 

She/You /I make priorities

 

Mine:

 

1. in the snow and experiencing the mountains-the high country or just the woods

2a. skiin (not sliding downhill) in terrain/environment which is not heavily manipulated
2b. skiin technique

2c. skiin alone

3. skiin groomers

...

5. skiing with one or two others of the same mind-meld...

6. appreciating ski racing

...

15. skiin at Mt Baldy

...

23... skiin in a group of 5 or more (like herding catz)

...

247. skiin at Mt High, Big Bear, Snow Summit or Hunter Mtn..

 

EDIT: OK, just for reference point

 

2d. skiin The Bird/Alta, MRG, Squaw, Stowe (add another 25 similar areas...) on a good snow day and no crowds...


Edited by moreoutdoor - 3/2/11 at 2:04pm
post #51 of 54

Having good technique allows you to absorb terrain features that might knock a skier with marginal technique off balance and possibly causing them to be injured.  Look at some footage of Bode Miller racing and some of his unbelievable recoveries.  If his technique wasn't absolutely rock solid, he probably would have been dead years ago.  The better your technique the less likely you are to be injured and as I get older that's especially important because it takes longer to heal now than it did 20 years ago.

post #52 of 54

Couple of quotes about Bode's perfect technique for all you tech weenies on epicski.


To the onlooker Bode Miller's skiing technique is ungainly if not downright ugly. He arms flail about wildly, his poles touch the snow almost randomly, and his weight often hangs a long way behind the tails of his skis. His long limbs merely exaggerate the ungainliness of his movements. Bode's skiing style seems to defy the laws of physics - or at least the instructions of all coaches.

 

Miller has never followed the rule book. According to Chip Cochrane, his college ski coach: "Alpine racers focus on technique first, speed second, with the idea that speed will follow technique. For Bode it's the opposite: speed begets speed begets speed." Konrad Bartelski, Britain's former No 1 downhiller, agrees: "His skiing is very radical, it's bizarre. Any young kid watching ski-racing should look at Bode, not anyone else - that's the way they'll be racing in the future."

post #53 of 54

hey, crank d-head, you didn't even make a point, so calling out a whole group of people over nothing is majorly rude, so back at you: screw youdevil.gif. and what is your point in the first place: (no one posting here knows about racing???) doubt that. go ahead, illuminate me with an original, coherent thought....

post #54 of 54

It's a progression.  Skiing and making it down a steep fast run in the beginning is thrilling and satisfying.  It is like jumping off the third floor balcony into a big pile of snow or jumping from the roof of the hayloft into the loose hay (I'm dating myself here, it's all in bales now :(  )  without getting hurt.  After a while you are not satisfied with falling; you want to fly.  Skiing is like flying.  After another while flying is not enough; you want to fly faster with harder turns and you want to fly with more grace and fluidity.  It keeps going.

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