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2 questions for bootfitters

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

1) Does anyone out there have experience with modifying the Dynafit Titan's alpine sole blocks for alignment purposes?  I realize the vibram AT sole blocks prevent such modifications and require me to put cants between binding and ski, but for alpine use, has anyone ground or bolted alignment plates to the alpine sole blocks?

 

 

2) I have been in contact with a fairly local boot/alignment guy who is suggesting I try a posted footbed instead of external sole grinding or shims between binding and ski.  I don't have a lot of $$$ to spare so I'd hate to throw down a couple hundred $$$ only to find the posted footbeds don't work.  I am currently using footbeds that work very well for me, so I'm not eager to replace them.  Is it really possible to accommodate all alignment issues with a posted footbed (and upper cuff alignment)?  Intuitively I feel I want more natural foot posture inside the boot, and stance adjustment outside, but I don't have the biomechanical chops to defend that intuition.

post #2 of 25

first of all having a "posted" footbed, means absolutely less then zero in reference to effect on your alignment. if the footbed is well made, posting enhances the performance. so somewhere (and possibly in this forum) someone has blown some smoke on the subject of posted versus non posted footbeds. a good footbed captures the heel bone in line to the heel cord, it matches the plantar surface of the foot, and it has the 1st/5th/and heel bone all in contact with the earth on the same plane. nowhere in that description does it state that the foot needs or does not need to be posted, or does it make reference to how the footbed has to be cast, like weighted, unweighted, semi weighted. my point is a good footbed is a good footbed. it does not matter how it arrived at being good, as long as those keys parameters are met.

 

secondly cuff adjustment is just that, cuff adjustment. it is not canting by any stretch of the most retarded bootfitters imagination.

 

on your first question, i would be a little cautious in terms of messing with cants under the alpine sole blocks on the dynafit titans. it's one thing on a lange boot where the cantology cant wedges were designed to fit together. could you custom craft something to work on the dynafit alpine lugs? probably. will it pass the smell test in actual use? not sure.

 

realistically it is my opinion that you are asking too much from an AT set-up. performance is performance, touring is touring. as far as i am concerned there is not a product on the market today that delivers both in one boot.

 

jim

post #3 of 25
Thread Starter 

Jim,

 

Thanks for the reply, which confused me a little.

 

Posting is irrelevant?  I don't follow what you're saying there. 

 

This person suggested that what I have done now via ground soles on alpine boots, he could do by posting a footbed. 

 

Can a posted footbed put my knee in the same place that the sole-adjusted alpine boots put my knee?  That's the question.  Can it be achieved within the boot, rather than by modifying the boot itself?

 

I have no interest in modifying the Vibram sole blocks.  None.  Period.  They are for walking.

 

I'm well aware that cuff adjustments are not canting.  I mentioned them only because (1) some Dynafits have fixed cuffs; and (2) the Titans have experienced, with some skiers, a migration of the cuff adjustment device.

 

My peculiar alignment of my body (mis-alignment, probably better) makes me very sensitive to upper cuff position relative to the foot.  I can't ski well if the cuff is shoving my lower leg to one side, or otherwise doesn't allow my leg shaft to be centered in the boot's cuff.  I know this from experience.

 

Suggesting that alignment is irrelevant to backcountry skiers is not really useful to me.  That's probably because my mis-alignment is pretty severe.  I notice no difference in bottomless, that's true.  But once the snow puts some firmness under foot, there's a big difference in my skiing efficiency and comfort when I'm aligned, versus not. 

 

post #4 of 25

a good footbed captures the heel bone in line to the heel cord, it matches the plantar surface of the foot, and it has the 1st/5th/and heel bone all in contact with the earth on the same plane. nowhere in that description does it state that the foot needs or does not need to be posted, or does it make reference to how the footbed has to be cast, like weighted, unweighted, semi weighted. my point is a good footbed is a good footbed. it does not matter how it arrived at being good, as long as those keys parameters are met.

 

posting a footbed for aligning the knee will not work for your AT setup. for that matter it usually does not work for an alpine setup. they are separate issues. they are all stops along the way when looking at your alignment.

 

also no one is suggesting( except your esteemed bootfitter) that you use the cuff to force the knee into position. re-read my response.... cuff alignment is cuff alignment. that means you align the cuff to accommodate the shape of your lower leg!

 

jim

post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 

Right, thanks.

 

Anyone else?

post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzledVeteran View Post

Right, thanks.

 

Anyone else?



That wasn't clear enough?

 

SJ

post #7 of 25

ok so you want it from another viewpoint (sounds like you don't either believe Jim or understand his post, not sure which one)

 

by posting a footbed i am assuming that you mean adjusting the angles of the footbed in a medial /lateral plane,  the reason i ask is that all footbeds  are technically posted....posting is purely the material which is used below the shell of the orthotic to fill the voids..... altering this position from neutral is something which should be carried out by a qualified person (not just a boot fitter...a DPM, C.Ped  etc can all do this, but why would they unless they were trying to alter the neutral position which is normally required for gait (being as skiing is a mid stance sport)) a very wise mentor of mine once said that if you have to stick junk all over the bottom of the orthotic to change angles and adjust things after the event you didn't make it right in the first place!

 

posting of a footbed or shims inside the boot deal with the relationship between the foot and the ankle at the sub talar joint, yes there can be an effect on knee position but it is primarily dealing with the foot and ankle NOT the knee.  as someone who has dealt with the SBS system for a number of years i can assure you that it is NOT the same as under boot canting, it can be used in conjunction with if it works for the individual person but it is not a substitute for the vast majority of people

 

 

the cuff adjustment as has been said is to accommodate the shape of the lower leg...... when the sub talar joint is held in the right place and the cuff is adjusted to accommodate the leg shape then you can move on to dealing with true (under boot) canting

 

going a bit old school but is it an option to put a cant strip under the binding on your ski, it limits the options a little but it will give you the set up you are looking for, the way the sole pads attach to the boot probably prevents you from doing any kind of modifications to angle anything and screwing a canted lifter on would mean routing off the top of the lugs (the very point which holds them on to the boot)

 

 

it has been said before but there is not really a great way of getting alpine style set up on touring kit, it just wasn't designed for this type of adjustment, when and only when the market catches up with alpine then the manufactures may come up something to make this possible, but they are purists concerned with the walking up bit rather than the skiing down bit and weight ans walkability are their primary design concerns

post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 

Jim, I just don't know what you're trying to tell me, other than how a footbed is made at your shop.  I wasn't really asking how you make a footbed.  You seemed to take my 2 questions and ignore them in favor of telling me how you make footbeds, and then went onto some tangent about modifying the Vibram soles after I said I didn't want to do that.  Not sure whether you didn't understand my Qs or just didn't care.

 

CEM, that's a lot more helpful.  Thanks.

post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzledVeteran View Post
  Intuitively I feel I want more natural foot posture inside the boot, and stance adjustment outside, but I don't have the biomechanical chops to defend that intuition.


Jim was telling you that your intuition is correct. He then provided you with the biomechanical chops to understand why... you just got all frustrated and angry, like an Angry Man. Don't be so Angry. Relax and re-read the post and don't get so frustrated.

post #10 of 25

Dear Grizzled,

 

Get a posted footbed and cuff alignment from ur bootfitter, nuff said.

post #11 of 25
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post




Jim was telling you that your intuition is correct. He then provided you with the biomechanical chops to understand why... you just got all frustrated and angry, like an Angry Man. Don't be so Angry. Relax and re-read the post and don't get so frustrated.



Are you going to stalk me now?

 

Jim's posts were confusing.  I said I liked my present footbed, but he proceeded to tell me about points that make a good footbed.  I wasn't asking whether my present footbed was made according to those points.  I was asking a direct question that Jim skipped:  can a person actually align me through the footbed to achieve what external boot mods achieve.  This was not addressed anywhere in Jim's response.  If his point was to give the biomech chops, he should have said, "I can't help you with the question of boot vs footbed, but here's how we make an appropriate footbed."

 

But that's not what he said, was it?

 

You're gonna follow me around as if to expose me as a "troll," aren't you Mr Hostility?

 

to johnnyatomic,

 

now that you've contradicted both Jim and CEM on the function of cuff adjustment, who should a reader believe?

 

One of the things I wonder about is why bootfitters would say alignment is irrelevant in the backcountry, when there are plenty of occasions to be traversing across a firm slope that's steep on the trip uphill.  If you're like me and without alignment can hold an edge on only one of the 4 (right inside, left inside, right outside, left outside) I'd say it's pretty crucial.  There's also the issue of what I said above, which is that when the snow starts to firm up underfoot on the trip downhill, the alignment again comes into play.

 

Most skiers generally don't investigate alignment, and backcountry skiers are a small portion of "most skiers" so I understand why this isn't a commonly covered issue, but I'm trying to suggest that there's a few of us out there who would benefit greatly from it.

post #12 of 25

Beleive me, I'm nicer!

 

I am not here to confuse you. Your bootfitter has seen ur feet. He suggested a posted footbed. He feels it WILL help ur alignment. Easy peasy...

 

Let him post and then let him align.No worries mate!

post #13 of 25
Thread Starter 

johnnya,

 

This may not have been clear.  The footbeds I use now are 11 yrs old but remain very useful.  My feet are comfortable, the response underfoot when I ski is crisp and quick, and my ankles don't feel weridly pronated or supinated when I try to play with edge angle and pressure.

 

The problem I'm having is trying to get alignment handled on my AT setup.  The existing alpine setup is 5-star, perfect.  The AT boots have swappable sole blocks, so I'm wondering if I can replace my alpine boots (which work great, as I said) with the AT boots + alpine sole blocks.  This raised the issue of whether the Dynafit alpine DIN sole blocks can withstand modification.  Salewa suggested using good judgment but offered skepticism as to how far the blocks could be ground or otherwise modified before they lose structural integrity.

 

The person who is suggesting the alignment-through-posted-footbed is not the same bootfitter who made the footbeds 11 years ago.  He's not local, I'd have to drive about 4 hours each way to see him and have him work on my alignment.  I don't know that I can trust him, he hasn't worked on me before.  His suggestion that a posted footbed will do the same as my present footbed + sole modification is what I'm skeptical about.  It seems that if my foot is happy in the alpine setup --where the alignment is done by boot sole modification-- then I don't want to take a happy footbed and add some sort of extra posting to it, to push my knee into the proper place over my skis/boots/feet.  I'm skeptical because I think that's going to make my feet unhappy.  I don't want to spend $200 (at least) plus gasoline (another 75 or so) to find the solution makes things worse.

 

I was a bootfitter many years ago and back then had experience working with footbeds and alignment.  One of the things I remember trying was adding wedges under the footbed to accommodate the canting needs (flattening the skis, or putting my knees in the proper position).  I remember it feeling awkward underfoot while skiing.  That's the root of my skepticism.

post #14 of 25


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzledVeteran View Post

Jim's posts were confusing.  I said I liked my present footbed, but he proceeded to tell me about points that make a good footbed.  I wasn't asking whether my present footbed was made according to those points.  I was asking a direct question that Jim skipped:  can a person actually align me through the footbed to achieve what external boot mods achieveThis was not addressed anywhere in Jim's response.

 

But that's not what he said, was it?

 

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post

a good footbed captures the heel bone in line to the heel cord, it matches the plantar surface of the foot, and it has the 1st/5th/and heel bone all in contact with the earth on the same plane. nowhere in that description does it state that the foot needs or does not need to be posted, or does it make reference to how the footbed has to be cast, like weighted, unweighted, semi weighted. my point is a good footbed is a good footbed. it does not matter how it arrived at being good, as long as those keys parameters are met.

 

posting a footbed for aligning the knee will not work for your AT setup. for that matter it usually does not work for an alpine setup. they are separate issues. they are all stops along the way when looking at your alignment.

 

also no one is suggesting( except your esteemed bootfitter) that you use the cuff to force the knee into position. re-read my response.... cuff alignment is cuff alignment. that means you align the cuff to accommodate the shape of your lower leg!

 

jim


Footbed creates a neutral foundation for foot- cuff alignment gets lower leg centered in boot cuff- canting allows you to stand on a flat ski. A footbed doesn't cant you, the cuff alignment function doesn't cant you, canting at the sole of the boot/under the binding cants you. It's that simple and that is what he is saying.

 

His post may have confused you, but he did answer your question- he wasn't explaining how he makes footbeds, he was explaining what a footbed does (and doesn't do- provide corrective stance modification). He also suggested that modifying the Alpine sole blocks on your boot may be a bad idea in his opinion (he wasn't talking about the Vibram Sole, he was talking about the Alpine Sole... which is what you asked about and what he answered- re-read it). He mentioned the corrective sole blocks for Lange that do work due to them being manufactured specifically to work, but cautioned that modification of yours would be tricky and possibly dangerous- Salewa confirmed this sentiment. Your own experience with underfoot, in boot, wedges should help direct your skepticism about the effectiveness of in boot alignment attempts. CEM and Jim are saying the same thing, neither are trying to insult you or mis-direct you and neither am I.

 

 I'm trying to help you understand what has been said, it was good advice. I take this seriously and I'm trying to help.

 

Why can't you just shim the binding? It's simple but effective... simple is good.

post #15 of 25
Thread Starter 

Even after I explain why Jim's response didn't help me, you insist on saying it did help me and I'm too dense to get that. 

 

I don't understand this habit of EpicSki people trying to tell me what I think.  What is it with some of you?

 

Thank you for trying to help, though.  I do appreciate that.

post #16 of 25

Griz.

 

Drive, pay, align and trust...your welcome....

 

end of post.

post #17 of 25

One more confirmation for the advice provided from the other fine boot fitters here.  Alignment on the frontal plane entails adjusting the three parameters mentioned above, the footbed, cuff cant, and sole cant IN THAT ORDER.  

 

If your footbed supports your foot as Jim described, go with it.

if you have equal space between your cuff and your leg on either side, go with it.

After the above has been aligned and the center of your knee mass does NOT align where you would like it, place cant strips under your binding to achieve proper alignment.

 

 

Let's keep it civil here boys!  We are trying to help and not getting paid for it.  If the poster does not want or believe our advice so be it.

post #18 of 25

Jim and I don't believe anyone else here is trying to say that cuff alignment or any alignment work is not important in touring setups.  However, the boots in general ( no not all) are softer and therefore less sensitive to alignment work.  And yes at times in your tours alignment can be important but I assume you are seeking powder and it is definitely more forgiving of alignment than hard pack.

 

Jim is correct, footbed work does not substitute for underboot work.

 

Lou

post #19 of 25
Thread Starter 

Why did Jim take my two clear questions and proceed to do a dissertation on footbed mechanics?  I said I liked my present footbed and I raised no doubts on whether it was well made.

 

Why is Lou talking about soft squishy AT boots when I identified my boot is the Dynafit Titan?

 

Why are most of you defending poorly written, irrelevant answers?  Is this a marketing site, or an informational site?  You are circling wagons to defend lame answers to very specific questions that should have been answered easily and directly.

 

Now I know why TGR people told me to avoid EpicSki.

post #20 of 25

Have a nice day Grizzleyone and don't let the door hit you in the A$& on the way out!

post #21 of 25
Thread Starter 

Hey thanks Buddyboy.  Hope you shake off that hostility before meeting your next customer.

post #22 of 25

We tried Bud...

post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzledVeteran View Post

Why did Jim take my two clear questions and proceed to do a dissertation on footbed mechanics?  I said I liked my present footbed and I raised no doubts on whether it was well made.

 

Why is Lou talking about soft squishy AT boots when I identified my boot is the Dynafit Titan?

 

Why are most of you defending poorly written, irrelevant answers?  Is this a marketing site, or an informational site?  You are circling wagons to defend lame answers to very specific questions that should have been answered easily and directly.

 

Now I know why TGR people told me to avoid EpicSki.



Going really back to the start.... You asked about a posted footbed, you were told that posting is irrelevant......posting is merely the backing for the footbed, the material to fill the gaps, you also said you were happy with your current footbed and didn't really want to spend money on a new one to find out that they don't work....... If your footbed works it works, sticking any amount of material onto the bottom it may or may not help, but without seeing your feet it is impossible to tell, hense the suggestions of seeing a good fitter and trusting them. (my gut feeling says if it works then they will say to keep it)

Onto the sole pads, the alpine or touring pads on the boot are the same in essence, not in their material or shape, but in the way that they attach to the shell, when you have a plate fitted either a canted one or plane the sole and add a flat one you need to route the top of the toe and heel lugs in order for the boot to fit back in the binding, this is the problem......there is not enough material without reducing the strength of the interface between the sole pad and the shell


As for TGR saying avoid here, well that is an ongoing debate, if you prefer it there you are under no obligation to stay here, not a lot more I can say about that. Other than I think you have had a good number of answers which answered the questions you posed.... Maybe if you look at the wording of your questions they could have been clearer, i know i had to reread them a couple of times before i got what you were on about. There is no circling of wagons here, the fitters on the forum give their time (and lots of it) for free, they answer questions between clients, when they get home at night, before they go to work in the morning. They get flack when they don't answer and more when they do. Having this facility on a forum is a massive benefit, the white noise which often goes with normal forums normally results in the key information being lost in the mix. The simplest thing we could do is not answer the questions, but we do and we do it because we have a love for the sport and want to give something back
post #24 of 25


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzledVeteran View Post


 

Now I know why TGR people told me to avoid EpicSki.


Amen....I'm quite sure that all the professional bootfitters on TGR gave you all the answers that you wanted to hear. It does mystify me however that given that bit of wisdom direct from the fount of all knowledge (TGR) that you bothered to ask the question here. IAC...........please give all those folks our best and be sure to thank them for their valuable information.

 

Best of luck to you with whatever info you have gleaned from TGR.

 

SJ

post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Have a nice day Grizzleyone and don't let the door hit you in the A$& on the way out!



May I suggest this phrase, "don't let the door hit ya, where the good lord split ya."biggrin.gif

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