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# Delayed tipping - Page 2

Jasp, I find it difficult to comprehend how one could pivot a loaded arcing ski. But you might be talking about an unloaded edge? How does one pivot around the heel? I can only understand pivoting around some kind of mass center which to me implicates a huge back seat in order to do what you are thinking about. I think there will be no increased tip pressure. Could you explain your thoughts further?

Pivoting doesn't lead to increased edge grip in my experience. It's difficult regaining lost grip on ice.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

To follow up on that idea. Imagine wanting to create tip pressure but not wanting to lever forward to create that pressure. Since the ski is tipped up on edge the easiest way to do that would be to steer the tip into the turn. While some would suggest the tail would automatically wash due to the twisting action I would offer the idea that would only occur if the pivot point was in the middle of the ski. Move the pivot point back and the tail is less likely to wash since along with moving the pivot point aft we've also added pressure to the tail from the slightly aft stance. Considering we're already flexing the legs to absorb pressure and this tends to move your stance slightly aft, we really aren't adding much (if any) more aft levering than would occur from flexing the legs.

Again that's why I say tipping is hardly the complete answer to creating edge grip.

So, in the spirit of quantifying as has been done in this thread, how much incremental tip pressure do you think that would generate?

Carl it's a function of where the snow is relative to the ski. As far as understanding how to use rotary to change pressure distribution along an engaged edge, it's not new or even innovative. It's more the forgotten art of carving on long straight skis and varying the radius by how and where you pressure the snow. The Barnes model that Ghost posted assumes the force is always perpendicular to the ski base. Adding rotary to drive the tip into the snow adds pressure perpendicular to the snow. It's really that simple and really that complex at the same time. As far as quantifying it, well without pressure gauges in the ski, I think we would be guessing at the actual numbers.

Actually the Barnes model does not assume that pressure is always perpendicular to the ski's surface.  It places that angle (90 degrees) as the upper limit.  You certainly can and would want to in most cases have your line of action of the force directed more into the snow than accross the snow to give you some margin of error.   While your are skiing you enter a turn, increase turning force to apex and then decrease turning force when you exit the turn.   Grip requirements for parts of the ski vary with what part of the turn you are in.  Going into the apex, the tips are turning harder than the tails and require more grip, so you weight them more.  This actiion will (Isaac and I agree) put a torque on the skis.  This action also slows you down (tip pressure pushes you backwards, tail pressure pushes you frontwards), so it's not likely you will overdo it if you are trying to win a race.  However if you weight the tips  too much the tails will let go; there is only so much weight to go around.  It's a balancing act.  Turn exits can be accomplished in a variety of ways, my favourite way does involve more push from the tails.  Over-do that and you are in trouble.

When the skier creates big edging with just enough pressure on a ski to start it bending, big pressure will follow as centrifugal force builds and the radius tightens until the center of the ski hits the snow. If a ski goes way up on edge it can bend a lot before the whole edge hits the surface.

To get big ski bend, focus primarily on big edging. Secondly focus on pressuring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

Sorry TDK but tipping alone cannot produce edge purchase.

Ahhh, so in other words ... you can not buy a turn!

Interesting discussion on how pressure is created. IMO the key to creating pressure is early edging of the skis.

We established above that at speed you have to have a large edge angle in order to hold the turn, that means that in transition you don't really pressure the skis from the CoM. You have some pressure, but just enough in order to turn them by edging/tipping.

It is very important what you do with the skis in transition. When going into transition the CoM and skis are on diverging paths. In order to get them into converging paths again you need to edge the skis early so that they start to turn into converging paths.

If you tip too little the paths will still be diverging and you are forced into washing the tails out to get the convergence.

If you tip a bit more so that the paths are parallell the skis will not wash out, but parallell paths does not give you any free pressure purchase so you are forced to extend and that will pretty much destroy the rest of the turn.

If you tip a lot so that you have converging paths you have a lot of energy that must be directed, and that translates directly into pressure. If you have the outer leg tall at this point you get the pressure without excerting yourself.

If you do it really good you get the converging already in the high C.

Note that if you pressure the skis muscularly too soon the CoM and skis will not converge as much and you will not get any "free" pressure later.

I hear coaches say "put more pressure on the skis" all the time without explaining how to do that.

I think JASPs description is another way of getting the aforementioned convergence, but even if you feel that you get it through steering I think that a "steering movement" of edge locked skis actually lead to tipping and that this is what turns the skis, not the steering in itself. Assuming of course that we are still talking about carved turns.

Just get some pressure between the ski and the snow..............................

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

Carl it's a function of where the snow is relative to the ski. As far as understanding how to use rotary to change pressure distribution along an engaged edge, it's not new or even innovative. It's more the forgotten art of carving on long straight skis and varying the radius by how and where you pressure the snow. The Barnes model that Ghost posted assumes the force is always perpendicular to the ski base. Adding rotary to drive the tip into the snow adds pressure perpendicular to the snow. It's really that simple and really that complex at the same time. As far as quantifying it, well without pressure gauges in the ski, I think we would be guessing at the actual numbers.

http://universalsports.mobilerider.com/tv/405/video-Handotter-gets-on-podium-mid-15575-vid-610-cID--c--page-.html

Here's a visual example at some points in the run of what you're talking about, from a world class skier taking a podium in the process.  My preference would be to not describe it the same way but I think the movement pattern is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj

Just get some pressure between the ski and the snow..............................

Yes, but what happens when you tell a student to do that?  More than often they extend and thus effectively destroy the turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

Yes, but what happens when you tell a student to do that?  More than often they extend and thus effectively destroy the turn.

Skis are pressured by standing on them, and by the forces of skiing while their edge is engaged even if the skier is in the process of retracting, and in neither case does that pressure destroy a turn.  If causes pressure, the ski doesn't know from good pressure versus bad -- pressure is pressure at the level of ski and snow.

I agree there can be good and bad extension, but the whole extension = death of a turn idea is more than a bit simplistic.  Even useful sometimes for developing skiers, but there comes a point where it can also be good to be able to work a ski.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

Carl it's a function of where the snow is relative to the ski. As far as understanding how to use rotary to change pressure distribution along an engaged edge, it's not new or even innovative. It's more the forgotten art of carving on long straight skis and varying the radius by how and where you pressure the snow. The Barnes model that Ghost posted assumes the force is always perpendicular to the ski base. Adding rotary to drive the tip into the snow adds pressure perpendicular to the snow. It's really that simple and really that complex at the same time. As far as quantifying it, well without pressure gauges in the ski, I think we would be guessing at the actual numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

http://universalsports.mobilerider.com/tv/405/video-Handotter-gets-on-podium-mid-15575-vid-610-cID--c--page-.html

Here's a visual example at some points in the run of what you're talking about, from a world class skier taking a podium in the process.  My preference would be to not describe it the same way but I think the movement pattern is the same.

I don't understand at all actually. I'm one of those who insists it's impossible to carve on straight skis in any other way than 70+ meter turns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R

I don't understand at all actually. I'm one of those who insists it's impossible to carve on straight skis in any other way than 70+ meter turns.

In some sections here you can even see the cuts from the carve.  Obviously far harder to do on those skis though.  And that's with old ski tech overall -- with current materials and design, you could make a "throwback" ski that still carved far better than the skis did then, though it had the same sidecut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

In some sections here you can even see the cuts from the carve.  Obviously far harder to do on those skis though.  And that's with old ski tech overall -- with current materials and design, you could make a "throwback" ski that still carved far better than the skis did then, though it had the same sidecut.

It's round turns, it's great edge hold, but it's not carving. IMO.

Carving is the skis turning you, that is him turning the skis. Added to that it's tail follows tip.

To me it's really simple. If I could have performed laydown arcs on a straight snowboard, there wouldn't be any discussion. But one cannot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

Skis are pressured by standing on them, and by the forces of skiing while their edge is engaged even if the skier is in the process of retracting, and in neither case does that pressure destroy a turn.  If causes pressure, the ski doesn't know from good pressure versus bad -- pressure is pressure at the level of ski and snow.

I agree there can be good and bad extension, but the whole extension = death of a turn idea is more than a bit simplistic.  Even useful sometimes for developing skiers, but there comes a point where it can also be good to be able to work a ski.

You are taking this out of contect CTK. The context was carved turns under speed, and the extension was muscular extension early in the turn.

I'd be happy to stand corrected if you can describe how that can lead to a good turn . Or even better if you have a video example.

Muscular extension early in the turn can have value, e.g. in flat slow section, but that was not what I was discussing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

You are taking this out of contect CTK. The context was carved turns under speed, and the extension was muscular extension early in the turn.

I'd be happy to stand corrected if you can describe how that can lead to a good turn . Or even better if you have a video example.

Muscular extension early in the turn can have value, e.g. in flat slow section, but that was not what I was discussing.

High edge angle carved turns at speed.

The muscular extension is not the sole thing happening to make the ski hook up, but it is certainly there -- the hips are not being carried solely by momentum early in the turn, which is where the extension is occurring.  The extension does not by itself effectively destroy the turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

High edge angle carved turns at speed.

The muscular extension is not the sole thing happening to make the ski hook up, but it is certainly there -- the hips are not being carried solely by momentum early in the turn, which is where the extension is occurring.  The extension does not by itself effectively destroy the turn.

I'm not seeing the same thing as you in this video. The legs are more or less fully extended in neutral, so I don't understand what extension you see after that in the turn entry. Flexing the inner leg is what I see, and the minimal extension of the outer leg is not forcefully, it happens becuase the CoM moves inside the turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

I'm not seeing the same thing as you in this video. The legs are more or less fully extended in neutral, so I don't understand what extension you see after that in the turn entry. Flexing the inner leg is what I see, and the minimal extension of the outer leg is not forcefully, it happens becuase the CoM moves inside the turn.

Watch again, several of the transitions are actually airborne in Cuche's segment, so neutral happens pretty fast, and extension is visible well after the new shovel is engaged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R

I don't understand at all actually. I'm one of those who insists it's impossible to carve on straight skis in any other way than 70+ meter turns.

Straight skis were not straight!  All it takes to make a 24 m radius GS turn on a 70 m sidecut ski is to tip it up on edge to 70 degrees.  You might need a little speed to be able to balance at that angle without turning into a pretzel unless you are on a very steep slope (in which case you might be going fast enough anyway).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

Straight skis were not straight!  All it takes to make a 24 m radius GS turn on a 70 m sidecut ski is to tip it up on edge to 70 degrees.  You might need a little speed to be able to balance at that angle without turning into a pretzel unless you are on a very steep slope (in which case you might be going fast enough anyway).

70 degrees on a ski like that is a boot out guaranteed.

Extension to maintain reach and keep pressure is ok; Push off is not ok.  Flexing to release the old turn and starting the new turn flexed is good imho, which means that some extension will occur as you go into the apex.

For Carl.  Extension as part of working the board, but could be a ski.

Ghost's point that extension can have good or bad effects is valid.  An extreme example would be starting a carve and then hopping off that ski.  Obviously that is extension that does not allow the rest of a carved turn to develop.  My point is simply that extension is only that, and how it translates to pressure on the ski and affects the rest of the turn is dependent on lots of variables.  THe bad extension in terms of carving is probably much more common, for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

For Carl.  Extension as part of working the board, but could be a ski.

Ghost's point that extension can have good or bad effects is valid.  An extreme example would be starting a carve and then hopping off that ski.  Obviously that is extension that does not allow the rest of a carved turn to develop.  My point is simply that extension is only that, and how it translates to pressure on the ski and affects the rest of the turn is dependent on lots of variables.  THe bad extension in terms of carving is probably much more common, for sure.

I don't understand what you are trying to tell with theese snowboarding videos?

^^^That extension high in the turn doesn't have to always kill a turn.  They could just as easily be skiing videos, using snowboarders was just whimsical on my part.  Bit of a threadjack, but originally the point relates to creating pressure.  Extension in one turn can easily result in less pressure than retraction in another.  It's a big deal only if someone is pursuing a highly branded approach to skiing, but on-snow the fact that at the ski level the ski doesn't know what is pressuring it should be pretty obvious.

CTKook, I'm just a bystander in that part of the discussion. There are other things I've asked about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

Watch again, several of the transitions are actually airborne in Cuche's segment, so neutral happens pretty fast, and extension is visible well after the new shovel is engaged.

If the transition is airborne its even less likely that you extend forcefully to get pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt

If the transition is airborne its even less likely that you extend forcefully to get pressure.

Watch the video.  Also, very few people, Cuche included,  make a habit of landing at full extension.  Landing at full extension is un-fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

It's a big deal only if someone is pursuing a highly branded approach to skiing

Hm, and what would that be?

Quote:

Hm, and what would that be?

Doesn't matter, in the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

Doesn't matter, in the real world.

What does matter however - relating back to this topic is that there are effective and ineffective ways of achieving engagement in the upper third of a turn. The extension you keep referencing in other people's videos that you keep linking is not what Carl was asking about. In fact, it is the complete opposite of what Carl was referencing, and ineffective when taking into consideration the reasons for delaying tipping (if you had experience at this level you would have known this from the beginning, so I'll give you a break, I'll go slow).

What Carl is referring to is a transition that is flexed... not a toilet seat transition, but one where the stance leg is longer in the turn and noticeably shorter in transition - specifically at the release. This describes a good majority of free skiing turns as well as well as what you'd see in any reasonably high level race (you really don't have to go to the WC level, even the fast guys in our beer leagues realize that this is faster). What Carl was asking was in reference to the timing of his tipping [with the feet, can't tip an extended leg... you can put the ski on edge, but that isn't "tipping" the skis] compared to the timing of extending the stance leg into the new turn. The real question is - can he wait a split second and let the skis float before tipping or extending his stance leg into the new turn - the answer is yes, and it will accomplish a lot under the right circumstances.

A turn that is released as such can (won't always, as it depends on release intensity) produce a float stage in the turn where the skis are unweighted. During that portion of the transition the new stance ski can be lightly engaged (new edge established early), but not pressured until the skier is ready to do so. In GS training (the better application of this - not SL as CTKook posted initially), we call that patience ("we" as in the US Ski Team and numerous NCAA programs throughout the country). When the skier does tip, they tip aggressively and quickly (upper body must compensate to stay balanced on the stance ski) - and huge angles can build. This cannot be done from an extended leg because the skier cannot create balanced edge angles fast enough and the skier will end up with too round of a line... which is opposite of why the skier would attempt this in the first place - as this is all about tightening the line and reducing the amount of time spent in the turn.

The application behind all of this is a way to tighten an arc and significantly reduce distance traveled in a course. Float however has limitless application in high level skiing on any terrain (particularly useful in steep off-piste situations), because if controlled, the rebound can be extremely significant as well as useful in early engagement and fore/aft applications in the upper portion of the turn... not to mention it is a lot of fun to be able to ski that way.

Welcome to the real world.

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