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post #151 of 165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post





Carl, correct me if Im wrong but in our countries where english is a forreign language we use the term "carving" to describe skiing consisiting of linked arc to arc "skärande/leikkaava sväng/käännös" edge locked pure carved turns? (I do anyway) Not as much just one turn but linked turns. Lets go carving. For instance. Then we carve down the hill. In race coaching we dont talk that much about carving because we want to be more specific if the track is not so easy you can "carve" through the entire track.

 


 

Very true. Carving turns.

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post #152 of 165

OK, Carl and tdk6, so do I have it right when I say your carving is what I call arc to arc carving, where the entire direction change of the turn is accomplished by simply riding the bend of the ski (tails following tips), no pivot/push/skid along the way?  Or is carving only referred to when speaking about making a series of those turns?  And as to slicing, it's is a turn that is part pivoted, pushed, skidded or stepped, and part riding the bend?  And the "slice" refers mainly to the "riding the bend" portion?  Or is slicing simply the act of the riding the bend, regardless of where or how frequently it's done?  


Edited by Rick - 3/3/11 at 8:50am
post #153 of 165
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Originally Posted by Rick View Post

OK, Carl and tdk6, so do I have it right when I say your carving is what I call arc to arc carving, where the entire direction change of the turn is accomplished by simply riding the bend of the ski (tails following tips), no pivot/push/skid along the way?  Or is carving only referred to when speaking about making a series of those turns?  And as to slicing, it's is a turn that is part pivoted, pushed, skidded or stepped, and part riding the bend?  And the "slice" refers mainly to the "riding the bend" portion?  Or is slicing simply the act of the riding the bend, regardless of where or how frequently it's done?  


Yes, you have it right. The entire direction change is accomplished by simply riding the bend of the ski. Offcourse you indirectly cause the ski to bend more or less depending on tipping angle and rate and upper body movements so its not restricted to any sort of park and ride kind of "riding the bend of the ski". This is carving:

 


No its not restricted to a series of turns but it describes continuous edge locked carving. Usually you dont just carve one turn or just a section of a turn. Its as much about the transition as it is about apex. If you carve but mess up one turn it doesent matter. What matters is that you do not try to turn and pivot your feet and skis. Or let the tails brush every turn. Slicing/cutting can be just a section or it can be the entire turn.

 

 

post #154 of 165

Thanks, tdk.  Now I see why you said Stenmark wasn't carving.  By that definition, no, he wasn't.  He was slicing.  Got it.   

post #155 of 165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 Slicing/cutting can be just a section or it can be the entire turn.

 

 


Exactly. I *think* our slicing/cutting is similar to what many guys here refer to as carving. Does that make sense Rick? That we should really have translated our cutting turn to carving but were already imported that word and restricted it's meaning.

 

post #156 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post




Exactly. I *think* our slicing/cutting is similar to what many guys here refer to as carving. Does that make sense Rick? 

 


Yes, Carl, perfectly.  And what you guys call carving, we call arc to arc carving.  

 

post #157 of 165

I think in German "carven" mean roughly what it does in English...i.e., not necessarily arc to arc?

 

I think it's important to note that arc to arc is itself a pretty stylized thing.  For instance, if you watch racers freeski, even, they can ski arc to arc very well but will often ski different turn shapes, too.  If you are doing turns utilizing float to "extremely significant" rebound to float as described earlier in this thread, by definition you aren't really skiing arc to arc:  as discussed, with no pressure, those skis aren't engaged.  It's probably a matter of degree from there to dolphin turns, which are very clearly not arc to arc, or to a big pivot when all that anticipation unwinds in some cases... 

 

As regards translating, there are some terms that add new technical information.  SimplyFast had mentioned "auf Zug fahren" in a thread about a year ago, which doesn't really have an English equivalent but is a concise way to capture letting the turn run out onto the tail of the inside ski (and off the slower shovel of the outside ski) in roughly the movement pattern displayed by Ligety in Rick's recent "diverging skis" thread.  I think the literal translation is on-course drive or driving inline?  Anyway that's a case where an English equivalent could help nail things down better in terms of expressing to racers how to maximize glide on flat sections.

 

Most of the terms for arc to arc carving actually have negative connotations: e.g., railing, edge-lock carve, etc. is often not a good thing.  "Pure carving" and "funcarving" maybe capture the recreational side of it, along with the German "new carving" and the eurocarve or extreme carve labels.  Because arc to arc carving is actually a niche-y thing if you take it to its literal meaning of pure arc to arc carves, to me it's not bad to have similarly niche-y names, sometimes with negative as well as positive connotations, that apply to it. 


Edited by CTKook - 3/3/11 at 3:45pm
post #158 of 165
Thread Starter 

auf Zug fahren = riding on a train

 

Most swedes can speak german (but not particularly elegant).

post #159 of 165

CTKook, good posting. "auf Zug fahren" would translate to "carving RR-tracks". Zug = train. I think the connection is not a direct translation but rather an independent conclusion on both sides.

 

There is also a negative connection to "letting your skis do the turning". Or "let the skis turn you, not you turning the skis". Like suggested in the TGIF video clip. People want to be in charge and they want to be calling the shots. Their worst enemie is "park and ride". You should be active. Continous movements etc. Yes, that is partly true but nobody said you should park and ride and only passively sit there only because your ski tracks in the snow totally independent of legg turning or pivotting. On the contrary.

post #160 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post


Yes, Carl, perfectly.  And what you guys call carving, we call arc to arc carving.  

 



LOL, takiing in consideration the multiple meaning of carving "anything goes"  smile.gif .

 

post #161 of 165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

CTKook, good posting. "auf Zug fahren" would translate to "carving RR-tracks". Zug = train. I think the connection is not a direct translation but rather an independent conclusion on both sides.

 

There is also a negative connection to "letting your skis do the turning". Or "let the skis turn you, not you turning the skis". Like suggested in the TGIF video clip. People want to be in charge and they want to be calling the shots. Their worst enemie is "park and ride". You should be active. Continous movements etc. Yes, that is partly true but nobody said you should park and ride and only passively sit there only because your ski tracks in the snow totally independent of legg turning or pivotting. On the contrary.


 

I think exactly the opposite way. biggrin.gif

Not many skiers has the courage to let the skis turn them. Being able to get out of static balance and trusting the skis to perform the turn in an edge locked fashion is very positive in my mind. Much like doing a pure carve on a skateboard in a bowl or a vert without resorting to lifting the front wheels. It's something that needs commitment.

 

Besides, edge locked carving is definitely not singular radius turns.

 

Btw, park and ride is very very close to taking the next step. I think it's a skier on the verge of a breakthrough.

post #162 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post




 

I think exactly the opposite way. biggrin.gif

Not many skiers has the courage to let the skis turn them. Being able to get out of static balance and trusting the skis to perform the turn in an edge locked fashion is very positive in my mind. Much like doing a pure carve on a skateboard in a bowl or a vert without resorting to lifting the front wheels. It's something that needs commitment.

 

Besides, edge locked carving is definitely not singular radius turns.

 

Btw, park and ride is very very close to taking the next step. I think it's a skier on the verge of a breakthrough.



icon14.gificon14.gificon14.gif

 

post #163 of 165

What???? Something positive said about park and ride???? 

 

HERESY!!!   biggrin.gif


Edited by Rick - 3/4/11 at 10:01pm
post #164 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Bud, do you know of any techical study of how a ski functions in submerged powder. How much it bends etc. I would have guessed not much. Why would they other wise manufacture rockered skis?


Aaaaaa... how do you suppose skiers have been making turns in powder all these years before reverse chambered skis?  by pivoting?  by riding the sidecut?

 

post #165 of 165


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post




 

I think exactly the opposite way. biggrin.gif

Not many skiers has the courage to let the skis turn them. Being able to get out of static balance and trusting the skis to perform the turn in an edge locked fashion is very positive in my mind. Much like doing a pure carve on a skateboard in a bowl or a vert without resorting to lifting the front wheels. It's something that needs commitment.

 

Besides, edge locked carving is definitely not singular radius turns.

 

Btw, park and ride is very very close to taking the next step. I think it's a skier on the verge of a breakthrough.


I actually agree both with what you say, and what I wrote earlier -- I think it's a stage of development thing.  Carving on a skateboard in a bowl is definitely one needed skill, and probably more advanced than kickturning (though I've known old guys who could carve on a skateboard real well but not kickturn well, oddly enough), but actually not as impressive as someone who can slide, not to mention grind, ollie on vert -- a whole range of things.  Sliding or skidding is easier on skis or snowboard, and carving harder, than on a skateboard,on a relative basis, but your basic point about commitment is true for both, I agree.  Just at some point you need to get beyond it if you want to keep developing.  (What is more committing and more technically impressive, a carve or a roll in?)  I think that's why for skiing in particular some terms like railing have two meanings, one good, one bad. 

 

 

 

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