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# Delayed tipping - Page 5

Offcourse flex matters. But the carving ski consept builds arround sidecut. Flex is not unique to carving skis.  BTW, how exactly do you see a 2x4 arc well in 3D snow?

### Gear mentioned in this thread:

Let me add the engineer perpspective.

A 2m straight ski in moderate snow may be evenly decambered e.g. 2 cm from straight at center. It will have a turn radius of 25 m. 4 cm will give 12.5 m etc.

On ice you may have a decambering of 2mm, which gives you a turn radius of 250m.

If you add boot forward pressure you may decamber the front part more and get tighter turn radiuses, but the math becomes complicated.

Jamt - its funny but I have the feeling that I can arc a ski tighter on firm surface than in soft snow. Theory and practise doesent really add up here. I use the surface I ski on for support, not to "give way". 250m turn radius. Sounds pritty straight forwards .

TDK, It is true that at speed a shaped ski turns tighter on firm surfaces, because the soft surfaces cannot handle the huge forces involved. For straight skis you will not get any huge forces carving on firm surfaces unless you go really fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

He said he could bend it and make a turn, he did not specify the radius of that turn.

Even straight skis will be decambered in the snow if it's not boiler-plate.  The underfoot section will sink in more than the tip and tail.  Moving forward as you tip that (curved) ski (or 2x4) will make it turn.

Ghost, think 3D for a second. If you put a shaped ski on the floor and tip it on its edge you will notisse that the ski only touches the floor at the tip and the tail. The middle section is up in the air. The more shape the ski has, less turn radius, the more in the air the midsection will be. Now push on the ski in the middle so that the edge is touching the floor all the way from tip to tail. You will soon realize that you cannot push the edge against the floor if you dont bend the ski at the same time. This is the way you use the ski as its designed. And it works best on hard surface. Hence all the gromed hard slopes these days. If you take a 2x4 as Bud suggested and put it on the floor and try to bend it you will find out that it will not bend at any tipping angle. Not even in soft snow because in soft snow the whole 2x4 will be pressed down into the snow. In powder for instance if you are skiing old school submerged you will not benefit from your skis side cut like you do on a hard groomer. And if you tip the 2x4 on the floor you will see that the edge is touching the floor at every tipping angle. Let me repete myself, when carving arc to arc 100% edge locked its the side cut of the ski that dictates the turn radius. It has a sweet spot. You cannot cleanly carve tighter or wider than a sertain ammount. Rick has a good illustration on his webb site. Check it out.

I learned that a few decades ago.  The sidecut was less, but the effect was the same.

I also learned that if you stuff the tips and put a lot of load on the front of your skis they will bend more.  The initial edge engagement will be rough compared to the natural turn you get matching sidecut to surface, but you will get a tail follows tip turn  from the platform formed by the base in the snow after you get it started.

Although the whole two by four is pressed into the snow, the snow load is spread on the whole ski and you are supporting it with the legs at the center.  It is like an upside down beam supported by one column in the middle.  The load will deform the beam according to standard engineering beam deflection equations.

Also in soft snow you can use dynamic loading to increase the bend in the ski before starting the turn- up unweight for added effect then downweight to decamber ski then tip with a decambered ski.

Ghost, because its hard to even bend a ski in pow they have now rockered skis. Or bent or how do you call them.  I wonder how it is to ski with them in deep soft snow. Do they arc or do they smear the whole way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

Ghost, because its hard to even bend a ski in pow they have now rockered skis. Or bent or how do you call them.  I wonder how it is to ski with them in deep soft snow. Do they arc or do they smear the whole way?

TDK6, you really need to get out and ski more powder brother!  Hard to bend a ski in powder?? really?    Very difficult NOT to bend a ski in powder if you ask me.  In fact, pretty much impossible not to bend a ski in powder if you stand on it.

Bud, do you know of any techical study of how a ski functions in submerged powder. How much it bends etc. I would have guessed not much. Why would they other wise manufacture rockered skis?

Has somebody hijacked tdk6's user id?

Come on TDK6, you know a ski will be bent if you stand on it.  The shape of the ski deviates from it's undeformed shape more as you load it more.  Rockered skis work the same way, with their initial shape being set so that they are curved more with a lighter load.  Stand on a ski in soft snow and the underfoot section will be lower than the tip and tail. The ski changes shape as you load it.  A cambered ski has a negative curve at zero load, and a very stiff ski with much camber may well maintain that shape with a lightweight skier on it, but that's the exception.  Rockered skis just have more curve to them at zero and close to zero load.

As I see it, you guys jasp, ghost, ctkook seem to think that any kind of carving is carving and that if a ski can be bent than it can be carved and that's what you are arguing.

However the Finnish/Swedish coalition seems to have a very specific kind of turns in mind, with a specific outcome. And wrong sidecut doesn't cut it. We are all racers and we are well aware that we could never ever go at the same speed in the SL course with a GS ski and that's where our argumentation ends with the words "it doesn't work". It isn't interesting hearing that a straight ski can be carved, we know and we all have DH skis at our homes. We can carve those but would never dream of implying that they would work in a SL course by slightly more tip pressure.

Arc to arc with straight skis has a name in Sweden: "Sking the shape of the ski".

Lots of sence in your above posting Carl. I guess we are in minority with our definitions. However, that is not what is worrying me. Im more worried about the lack of the basic understanding of how a carving ski is intended to be used. And the difference between carved and skidded turns. For me and you and our assosiations angle of presentation its obvious but not to all it seems. Check out this great ski tip from the PSIA alpine team:

http://www.thesnowpros.org/index.php/PSIA-AASI/video-gallery/turning-with-your-tips

When I have previously showed the video here at epic, here: http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/87727/tgif , very few have agreed to the consept. Check it out.

In the TGIF tip by PSIA Alpine Team, I believe what they mean by Tips go in first is the tips ENGAGE first and begin to climb into the turns.  I don't believe the moniker they used clearly communicated this, rather just created a cute little acronym to market the ski tip.

In a non planing or skidded turn our tips DO go in first as the edges are released the tips dive into the fall line however; when carving (planing) arc to arc turns our bodies go down the hill first and the feet and skis end up above us on the slope.  We reach with our tips to remain in contact with the snow and engage them as in the video by the PSIA boys as our bodies and our skis take divergent paths at initiation.

TDK6,  try jumping on a trampoline with your skis on and notice how they decamber as your base of support gives way.  This is basically what happens in powder.  We are not carving on our edges in powder we are skiing around the curved berm created in the 3D snow platform created by our bending skis.

Quote:Bud
In the TGIF tip by PSIA Alpine Team, I believe what they mean by Tips go in first is the tips ENGAGE first and begin to climb into the turns.

At a PSIA event I attended recently one of the main topics was how we move to engage the tips first to start the turn. Judging from the information and description given  by the clinician the quote from Bud is accurate, anything else is a misinterpretation of the TGIF video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA

At a PSIA event I attended recently one of the main topics was how we move to engage the tips first to start the turn. Judging from the information and description given  by the clinician the quote from Bud is accurate, anything else is a misinterpretation of the TGIF video.

Sounds like the ministry of truth dealt with Chris and Mike firmly and swiftly. That TGIF meaning is doubleplusgood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R

Sounds like the ministry of truth dealt with Chris and Mike firmly and swiftly. That TGIF meaning is doubleplusgood.

Chris and Mike are the Ministry of Truth. It's their video.

Sorry, I have no idea, it just sounded so funny from here with that official statement.

Yes it's their video. Exactly.

Apparently our Ministry of Truth and your Ministry of Truth are speaking different languages.

1984 Bill. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

Lots of sence in your above posting Carl. I guess we are in minority with our definitions. However, that is not what is worrying me. Im more worried about the lack of the basic understanding of how a carving ski is intended to be used....

No one has asserted that slalom skis aren't the best choice for racing slalom, or similar nonsense.  What has been said is that pressure is needed to engage a ski, Stenmark was known as a carver, skis decamber when you stand on them in powder, and similar noncontroversial things.

If you want to advance theories about skiing that are rooted in singular definitions, or ideas about how skis behave in powder that don't seem to relate to actual experience skiing powder, perhaps consider leading into each post with something along the lines of "This is my whacky theory..."

Let me also note that this thread first evolved with Carl and tdk6 first taking issue with the fact that Stenmark carved at all; now there seems an attempt to redefine things as his carving being "uninteresting" today.  Trying to destroy the meaning of common terms, or redefine them multiple times in a thread, is not helpful.  Speculating about rockered skis but in an authoritative way, without first actually having some background in the subject matter,  likewise is not helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook

No one has asserted that slalom skis aren't the best choice for racing slalom, or similar nonsense.  What has been said is that pressure is needed to engage a ski, Stenmark was known as a carver, skis decamber when you stand on them in powder, and similar noncontroversial things.

If you want to advance theories about skiing that are rooted in singular definitions, or ideas about how skis behave in powder that don't seem to relate to actual experience skiing powder, perhaps consider leading into each post with something along the lines of "This is my whacky theory..."

Let me also note that this thread first evolved with Carl and tdk6 first taking issue with the fact that Stenmark carved at all; now there seems an attempt to redefine things as his carving being "uninteresting" today.  Trying to destroy the meaning of common terms, or redefine them multiple times in a thread, is not helpful.  Speculating about rockered skis but in an authoritative way, without first actually having some background in the subject matter,  likewise is not helpful.

Problem is that in Sweden and Finland he wasn't carving. He was doing cutting or slicing turns. It's a language thing. We imported your word and gave it another meaning. But I guess that the same problem will be apparent in other countries as well where english terms are imported and used as part of your language.

It would be very interesting to know if the word "Carving" is imported into italian, norwegian, french (less likely), german etc.. and to hear how it's interpreted there.

The problem with the definition is definitely ours. The problem we have here is obviously that we don't know what word we should use to translate the "scandinavian word carving" to english with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R

Problem is that in Sweden and Finland he wasn't carving. He was doing cutting or slicing turns.

OK, I'm confused, over two things.  First, on your definitions of cutting, slicing, and carving, and how they differ.  Second, on if every teaching organization within the nations of Sweden and Finland all actually speak in one voice.  It sure ain't the case over here.  Here, carving seems lately in some circles to have taken on a broader definition.  It now also encompasses more skiddy turns, beyond the exclusive "tails precisely following tips" turn it once was.

Funny that the definition of carving would broaden, now that skis are curvier, and traditional carving is easier.   I suspect the motivation behind the change to be related to the "every kid gets a trophy" mindset of progressive america.

The race community here has not embraced the change.  Neither have I.

Rick; we have always used the wording "skärande sväng" in swedish, which means cutting turn where cutting is in like a cuttingboard ("skärbräda" in swedish). I don't know if slicing is a good word, I was thinking of cutting apart stuff on the cuttingboard.

Then we have borrowed the word carving, and I guess if a swede should translate it, it sounds mostly like wood carving. We have a word "karva" which is used when you take a knife and make letters in wood. Karva is related to carving I think. When we use the word carving as a borrowed word, it's just a modern non-skidding turn with no pivot in transition. We even use the word combined with our own words for skis for distinguishing shaped skis:  carving-skidor. You can go to any store in Sweden and ask for carving-skidor or carving skis, and you will get a pair of shaped skis. In the very beginning they were also called hourglass skis but using swedish words.

In Sweden there are two organisations. SLAO (Swedish Ski Resort Organisation) and Friluftsfrämjandet (General outdoor organisation). The second one is more on small bunny hills. SLAO is the one that is on all major resorts.

Im willing to give carving multiple meanings. But calling everything "carving" is kind of stupid TIMWT (this is my wacky therory ). As for Stenmark carving or not I think that its fair enough that I admit he was carving. At 250m radius .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R

Rick; we have always used the wording "skärande sväng" in swedish, which means cutting turn where cutting is in like a cuttingboard ("skärbräda" in swedish). I don't know if slicing is a good word, I was thinking of cutting apart stuff on the cuttingboard.

Then we have borrowed the word carving, and I guess if a swede should translate it, it sounds mostly like wood carving. We have a word "karva" which is used when you take a knife and make letters in wood. Karva is related to carving I think. When we use the word carving as a borrowed word, it's just a modern non-skidding turn with no pivot in transition. We even use the word combined with our own words for skis for distinguishing shaped skis:  carving-skidor. You can go to any store in Sweden and ask for carving-skidor or carving skis, and you will get a pair of shaped skis. In the very beginning they were also called hourglass skis but using swedish words.

In Sweden there are two organisations. SLAO (Swedish Ski Resort Organisation) and Friluftsfrämjandet (General outdoor organisation). The second one is more on small bunny hills. SLAO is the one that is on all major resorts.

Like you guys we use the word "leikkaava käännös". Translates into "skärande sväng" which translates into "slicing turn". Slicing or cutting. The word Carving is the general word we use for this kind of turn you see in the TGIF video. 100% carved. No skidding. The word Carving is used widely also in ice hockey. It describes the situation when you take the puck from the opponent and stop his intentions. I wonder if carving is used like this in other languages?

TIMWT:

The word carving used to be used in English to mean a turn where the tails followed in the same groove as the tips, without the ski's edge having any sideways component of motion (that wasn't microscopic).  Carving in this sense was related to cutting meat with a knife, like carving a turkey.  The knife moves along it's long axis only, and the ski moves along it's edge only.

Carving on a hard surface, using the old English sense of the word meant that the sidecut when pressed against a hard surface cut a small groove and the turn radius had to match that which would occur from the three dimensional geometry problem of matching the edge to the surface (r = Rcosine(theta) ).  In practise, the edge is really travelling along a very small platform consisting of part of the base edge anda tiny bit of the base of the ski, there is actually a grove that the ski travels in, but it's close enough for government work to the line of intersection of the curved ski and the plane of the hard surface.

Under the old definition, skiing a sl ski at gs radii was not carving, and you would have to tip a gs ski pretty far over to carve a sl radius turn (and if it wasn't a soft ski it would refuse to bend that far with the available resistance of the ice/snow).

On a soft surface, there was and is an equivalent concept where the ski travels only along it's long axis, and the tails follow the tips with no sideways displacement.  The ski travels along a platform, who's edges are poorly defined, but close to the width of the ski.

Lately the word carving has devolved in English so that many people use the word to describe other turns, forcing us to use terms like Pure-carved or edge-locked carve.  I think this devolution is sad.

Carl and tdk6, sorry, I'm trying to make sure I understand what you guys are saying, and I'm still a bit fuzzy.  Under your usage of the terms, how do carved turns and sliced turns differ?  Or are they the same thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

Lately the word carving has devolved in English so that many people use the word to describe other turns, forcing us to use terms like Pure-carved or edge-locked carve.  I think this devolution is sad.

Amen.  Broadening the definition of a term to include a group of things that in the past each had term of its own makes communication and understaning harder.  It defeats the purpose of having terms.

Rick, when the ski hooks up for part of the turn it's a cutting turn. Like in older sl technique. Also it is used for rounded gs turns with high edge angles even if the ski really doesn't track perfectly. It's a word with some slack to it's definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

TIMWT:

The word carving used to be used in English to mean a turn where the tails followed in the same groove as the tips, without the ski's edge having any sideways component of motion (that wasn't microscopic).  Carving in this sense was related to cutting meat with a knife, like carving a turkey.  The knife moves along it's long axis only, and the ski moves along it's edge only.

Carving on a hard surface, using the old English sense of the word meant that the sidecut when pressed against a hard surface cut a small groove and the turn radius had to match that which would occur from the three dimensional geometry problem of matching the edge to the surface (r = Rcosine(theta) ).  In practise, the edge is really travelling along a very small platform consisting of part of the base edge anda tiny bit of the base of the ski, there is actually a grove that the ski travels in, but it's close enough for government work to the line of intersection of the curved ski and the plane of the hard surface.

Under the old definition, skiing a sl ski at gs radii was not carving, and you would have to tip a gs ski pretty far over to carve a sl radius turn (and if it wasn't a soft ski it would refuse to bend that far with the available resistance of the ice/snow).

On a soft surface, there was and is an equivalent concept where the ski travels only along it's long axis, and the tails follow the tips with no sideways displacement.  The ski travels along a platform, who's edges are poorly defined, but close to the width of the ski.

Lately the word carving has devolved in English so that many people use the word to describe other turns, forcing us to use terms like Pure-carved or edge-locked carve.  I think this devolution is sad.

This is exaclty my definition and worries as well. I think the reason people today use carving as a broder term is that the industry needs to meet up to its customers needs. Customers at ski shops buying carving skis and taking carving lessons expect to be carving. Or they want their money back . Sad but true. There are still skiers arround that dont understand what proper carving is and therefore uses the term losely. The TGIF consept fo instance should be clear to all of us and falls under Ghosts "proper" definition of carving. Sorry, edge locked carving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick

Carl and tdk6, sorry, I'm trying to make sure I understand what you guys are saying, and I'm still a bit fuzzy.  Under your usage of the terms, how do carved turns and sliced turns differ?  Or are they the same thing?

Carl, correct me if Im wrong but in our countries where english is a forreign language we use the term "carving" to describe skiing consisiting of linked arc to arc "skärande/leikkaava sväng/käännös" edge locked pure carved turns? (I do anyway) Not as much just one turn but linked turns. Lets go carving. For instance. Then we carve down the hill. In race coaching we dont talk that much about carving because we want to be more specific if the track is not so easy you can "carve" through the entire track.

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