Is the lift ticket pricing model killing the sport? - Page 10

My comments on the above, is at least the prices are all there out in the open.  It's not like they pulled one over on you or bait and switched you to a different price.

 

In some sense, i applaud Vail for sticking to their pricing model regardless of what's happening day-today; and keeping things "fair".  Even if people are unhappy, at least everyone is equally unhappy with an out-in-the-open deal.

 

I think having the expectations that you should always be able to find a discount and never pay full price is a bit entitled.  (That being said, when i just did a search on craigslist around colorado, i did see some hits for vail vouchers for sale).

 

If I go and pay walk-up price, I'd be even more pissed due to fairness/consistency if I hear on the lift that someone else was able to whine and complain about terrain or conditions and was able to get a discount or refund that way.

 

So you chose to travel to Vail specifically for free lodging (which eliminates a lot of potential ticket deals in itself), didn't find any lift tickets on Craigslist (which has nothing to do with the actual resort) and somehow feel that Vail ripped you off? White people problems.

 

 

You're fucking nuts if it would cost you $10k/year to ski.  Unless you're paying for your twenty closest friends and your extended family....wtf man?
 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll clarify a little more...since I think my message got lost.  Raysteng...you are right.  My statement about not paying retail..did come across as a bit entitled.  I generally try to buy lift tickets in advance via working advantage, Costco or some other discount program not really knowing how conditions will be and allowing that resort to capture that revenue early....long before anyone really knows how conditions will be.  I have a pass to a resort in UT that rolls over year over year that allows me to keep my costs down when  ski there.  Just bc I generally don't pay retail doesn't mean I should expect to never pay retail. 

 

All that said, this is discussion about cost and value.  Granted, I singled out Vail in my take on the discussion and I guess my larger point is that the experience wasn't worth what i paid...regardless of any other factors.   It was my choice to be there and pay that..so I have no one to blame but myself.  As I compare my experience at Vail to other resorts in UT or even Colorado and elsewhere it simply doesn't measure up.  That's all.  You may have found vouchers now on CL b/c conditions are degrading so quickly that folks are finally selling their vouchers.  When I looked for the time period I was there...there were more people looking for vouchers than folks selling. And yes, If i had bought a season pass...I could have gotten a deal but I never would have used it enough to make up the money.  IMHO $115 is not worth it for a day of skiing and certainly not in a down season.  Bottom line is Vail can charge whatever they want, and I can choose to pay or not to pay....such is capitalism.  If you feel that being consistent is important across their customer set, then that is your choice as well.

 

JoeUT...I'm not even sure what you are talking about.  I'm not sure a global generalization about "White People" adds a whole lot of value to the conversation--particularly when you have no knowledge about my background or ethnicity.  Whatever...works for you, though. 

LNL,  I do not think Joe knows what he is talking about; "white people problem".  WTF!  Like you, I tend to find a coupon or look for deals to escape the ticket window price.  I have been a pass holder at Vail (Colorado/Local) for the last ten years and have held passes in Colorado over the last 30 years at Monarch, WP/MJ, A Basin, and Steamboat.  Not attempting to slam Vail over the net, I am just stating that it has gotten to be more trouble than it is worth.  I have parked all over town and it just seems that they are doing their best to make sure that they get $ from their pass holders, above and beyond the pass cost, at every turn.  I've parked at about every free area in the valley and seen them all evolve from free to pay and free only on weekdays.  If you have ever attempted a day trip to Vail with a family consisting of three children and a wife on the cheap it is like a relay; park in valet at own risk, run kids and equipment into lodge before you get towed, purchase $10 storage for food, run out to truck and drive to parking, and await shuttle for trip to family.  It is kind of like being a pack mule and a world class sprinter within an hours time.  The buddy pass/ski with a friend discounts seem to lesson the load a bit but, as many of you know $198 lesson/equipment for a four year old little girl is a hell of a thump for a white man/woman; OR NOT!  You throw all this together with the fact that the place is now open an hour and a half early for the First Tracks program in which a 5000 acre ski resort can be tracked out on a weekday by 10:30 and you lose this customer.  If this is the future of skiing, I will take my limited white man's dollars somewhere else!  Tis is supposed to be fun even in low snow years.    

LOL, Google's your friend. This pretty much writes itself...

 

 

There, that's First World Problems, proving I have nothing against white people. (Is white)

 

Every time I see something I felt it's too absurdly expensive to attract any customers, I would found out it's maxed out in capacity!

 

So, there're a lot of people having plenty of money and they're willing to spend it on whatever they felt like. Lift ticket price is just one of them. 

 

In effect, we asked for it (the ever increasing price), we got it. Whether it kills the sport? I don't know. 

 

 

offtopic but I'm with Joe on this one, it's just an internet meme with less racial undertones and more just a joke; and we are on the internet forum are we not.

 

Although he didn't quite use the right term 

"whitewhine" or "first world problems" is usually the hashtag term that gets used so it looks like he smushed them together to  "white people problems".

BTW if you have a sense of humor:

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/28/101-being-offended/

I hear you Elk.  You seem to be point out that even the pass holders--who should be making out the best b/c they commit early to the cost of their pass--then get squeezed on the parking and all the other incidentals so that Vail doesn't leave even a penny on the table of un-captured revenue. The parking thing is nuts.  Spending most of my time in UT, its strange to see that Vail has made free parking in-town completely unavailable.  I haven't seen that anywhere else.  Maybe next they'll charge more for POW days!   I'm with you...I'll take my "white man" dollars elsewhere also.

A little over $10K for a season of a regular skiing for a family of four (35-4 5 days a year) is close to the norm and it's the lodging that kills it.

When I was single, I used to run a house at Killington every year through the 90's.

Season pass back then $1000.00

Full share in a ski house $1000-2000 per season. Piled people into a ski house back then, no issues...was alot of fun

Typically went up almost every weekend between Thansgiving and early April, got in-40-60 days per season.Skiing cost between $-75.00-$50 per day including the seasonal rental. loved it.Never complained

Fast forward 20008 to present- Family of four at a decent NH resort every season for the last 4 years

2 adult season passes:$760.00 each=$1520.00

2 Kids passes # $360.00 each=            $720.00

2 Juinior development programs @$599.00 ea=$1198.00

So without even getting on the snow I am up to $3,438.00 Not bad when you divide it by th typical 35-45 days a season we get in. We take Christmas and Feb. vacation weeks up there due to the investment. The kids have their circle of friends as do we. So $3438.00 /35 days/4 people =$24.55 per person per day. Great right, but

wait,we need a condo or lodging because we are 2 plus hours away from the resort.Aaverage price for a small 2 bedroon 20 minutes from the mountain is about $7,000  for 5 months plus about $200.00 per month in utilities.

AHHH, Now we are up to $3438.00 for skiing plus $8,000.00 for lodging=$11,438.00 for the season/ 35 days=$326.80 per day or $81.70 each per day for skiing and condo.

That includes 4 hours per day of ski school for the kids every weekend and both Holiday weeks, and that is the least expensive decent "big Mountain" in the NH/VT area. Is $81.70 per day each for something we love to do alot, well yeah, but we save all summer, we brown bag every day, eat out only a few times a season, and this is our "family time" every weekend during the winter.This year I am investigating other options for lodging ( hotels, ski clubs etc..) It is a big investment, But we love it, the kids love it. They have both been on skiis since 2 1/2 years old, they are now 8 & 5 yrs old and they both can ski with us pretty much all over the mountain. Will I do this forever? Probably not. As they get into their teens, It will make sense to just take a few trips out west or to the Candien Rockies, but My wife & I decided early on, that we wanted to be a skiing family and are willing to sacrifice the rest of the year to do it. I buy the 8yr old new gear every othe year and hand down the skis & boots to the 5 year old and whe we need skiis or boots or other stuff we go to play it again sports or look for deals on line. If you love it, you find a way..

At Deer Valley a couple months ago, I rode the lift with a visitor from Australia.  His comment was that everything was very inexpensive because of the exchange rate.  A 3 week skiing trip in Deer Valley, he said, is like going a vacation in the 3rd world because everything is so cheap.

 

This week at Deer Valley, there have been a ton of visitors from Mexico City -- the same issue.

For a family?  That's easy.

I did not factor the food needed every weekend, ( about $100.00 bucks per weekend) and gas for my Sienna mini van ( about $60.00 per weekend) due to the fact that a dinner for 4 at a local restaraunt will run me $ 80.00, so I would probably be spending close to  that if we did not ski, minus the gas. I just paid for my pases for next year ( capital one) and will start paying them down over the summer, so by September I will only have to focus on the condo costs and the ski school costs. It's funny, all the other parents with kids in the juinor programs with my kids all struggle the same way we do, but love it just as much and feel it's worth the sacrifice. having the opportunitty to be Skiing regularly as a kid may not be appreciated as much by an 8 year old, but hopefully will be when they hit their 20's. It's a great gift I hope to be able to afford to kive my wife & kids for years to come. there is nothing like the feeling of watching your 8 year old rip her first bump run, or watching your 5 year old run his first GS race and see the excitement, joy and sense of accomplishment in their little faces. "C'mon Dad, keep up", is starting to  become a common wise crack from my 8 year old when we free ski now, and frankly music to my ears every weekend!

People will ski even if American "resorts" over-price their tickets for existing skiers.

Don't confuse the activity of skiing with the "business" or "industry" built up around it. They are different things. The "death of skiing" we heard about in the 80s & 90s, and are hearing about in the 10s, is a bit of marketing fluff from people whose view of skiing is resort-oriented and gear-fetishized.

A contraction in both things (resorts and explosions in gear trends) would not hurt the activity of skiing, which will continue to be done by people who care more about skiing than they do about resorts' well-being or what is the latest 9-point geometry ski designed by Trustafarian Ski Company in Boulder CO.

 

 

 

I'm in agreement; it's an outdated economic principle: "charge as much as the market will bear". 

 

It certainly doesn't make for the best customer experience, which is the real reason people keep coming back.

"Customer experience" makes them come back?

Really?

So we're reduced to our "consumer" status? Nothing else drives us except commercial transaction?

Really?

What a dismal view of humanity!

To an extent, yes. 

 

Tahoe Example: 

Squaw has superior terrain, however it was difficult to get through special tickets to use the employee pass from work.  Even when it was easy it wasn't easy.  

Northstar was easy, and friendly. We ended up skiing Northstar more and got longer ski days because of customer service procedures.

 

This year Squaw has eliminated the special tickets office, has moved the process to the regular ticket window.  They have eliminated the hoops that we had to jump through, thus we ski Squaw more this year than we did last year and they've gotten more of our lunch money, Apres' ski money, and will probably get more summer visit money.

 

 

 

You are right, to a point.

separating the difference between season pass holders and people who walk up to the window - 

If I'm going for a day ticket, then my experience starts when I park my car and walk up to the window. 

If parking is  miserable, then I'm approaching the window with that parking experience.  I could be someone who lets it roll off my back, or I could absorb the first "tick" of my experience. 

 

If the ticket wind is complicated or miserable, there goes another "tick" 

These things can have an impact on my attitude when I click into my bindings and get ready for the lift line. 

There is another area that impacts the experience. Lift lines are inevitable, but...... Is the lift maze organized, or is it a mess?  Possibly another "tick" on the customer experience.  

 

Skiing is my goal, and should be THE Customer  Experience, but if all those other things are complicated or miserable, then it may have an impact on the average person. 

 

For us (in the lunatic fringe) we'll embrace it no matter what, we have season pass' and figure out the parking lot tricks, and know which lift to hit at which time.......  We are, after all, Lunatics!

 

 

Quote:

This is more getting at the point, like TC said.  Unless you're a working professional in the industry, skiing is an entertainment/lifestyle activity.  If it's not viewed as being a good value relative to other entertainment options, people won't do it, or at least won't do it as much.

 

This isn't to say that it's all about monetary cost.  If the value of the WHOLE package you're getting (terrain, conditions, facilities, crowds, customer service, etc.) isn't "worth" the value of the WHOLE cost to you (money, time, travel, maybe days off work for a vacation, etc.), then it will be perceived as a bad deal.

 

The relative values are different for everyone.  For crazy snowsports enthusiasts, the intrinsic value of the 'skiing' part of the equation is very high, so they might be willing to pay more, drive further, etc. than a more casual participant to visit the same mountain.  Someone planning a family vacation may prefer a resort with cushy slopeside lodging and great facilities, even if it's more expensive and the skiing isn't as good.  If money was no object, a lot more people would prefer to heli-ski, I'm sure...

If you love skiing, then you love skiing and will find ways to get out there and rip it. For me, it makes winter the time of the year that I look forward to. Summer time is fun as well, but I love every minute I am out there on the hill, fresh crisp air and the mountains I can't get enough of it. At 51, skiing 40-50 days a year, my non skiing friend are amazed that I don't get sick of it or bored. Ironically, I find myself wanting to ski more and more as I get older. the kids rejuvinated my passion for the sport about 6 years ago and I have not looked back. I could not even imagine being a causal 3-4 days a year skier. I don't think I would bother or could handle it.

Maybe all those "inconveniences" mean the "customers" should try another hip lifestyle activity that they can brag about on Twitter.

Skiing isn't for everyone, and some of us should stop trying to convert the whole world like crazed evangelicals. I'd go so far as to say that if "lifestyle" skiers QUIT ABSOLUTELY as of the end of the spring 2012 season, the rest of us could still ski as much and as often as we liked.

But I guess considering that is scary for people whose only sense of skiing is group identity or lifestyle projection.

Sounds like you're mad, bro.

 

I'm not sure what you're really mad about, but choosing a business based on the best customer experience is kind of the foundation of consumerism. If you eat at a restaurant where it takes an hour to get a plate of cold food and another hour to get the check when you're done, do you "stop trying to convert the world," or do you go to a different restaurant?

At least with the vail buying Kirkwood,

the general feeling i got from a lot of kirkwood people was that the "inconvenience" was the "hip lifestyle" they were bragging about.  I'm more core than you since I ski at this podunk resort where the lifts break down and don';t have safety bars, and the  bathrooms are crowded and I bring my own sandwich...

 

So it goes both ways, and maybe they should quit too and find a more "core" activity now that  kirkwood sold their "soul" to vail.

The mountain is the same whether it is convenient or inconvenient.  Mountain don't care.

 

When I pumped septic tanks for a living, I tried to convince everyone to pump their tanks at least every two years. 

Now I'm in the ski business, so naturally, I'd like everyone to invest in their ski experience.........

No Sh!t! 

 

 

Just saying

Your analogy don't quite work if I read it correctly because the food is cold which translate to bad skiing. It is not uncommon for people to wait for a couple of hours in a popular restaurent for good food.
 

 

Well it translates to bad service, bad experience. Also cold food that should be warm is not the kind of "good food" people wait hours for.  Yeah, good food (or skiing) can cover up some things, but if you have a terrible overall experience at a restaurant - abnormal wait, cold food, rude staff, etc., there are just too many options to waste time going back.

Uh, where do you eat?  Waiting a couple of hours for your food?  I've been in popular restaurants all over the country, hell, the world, and never waited that long.