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Tilting the feet? - Page 2

Poll Results: Do you tilt your feet when you turn?

 
  • 0% (0)
    Yes I tilt my outside foot within the boot. (Pronate)
  • 78% (11)
    Yes I tilt both my feet within the boots. (Pronate + supinate)
  • 21% (3)
    Nope, I'm using all of the sole to support my foot. (Neutral)
14 Total Votes  
post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick H View Post

Carl,

 

 

Perhaps you should use different terms instead of pronate and supinate, ie, invert and evert. These are more universal in foot oointing.

 

Rick H 


Exactly, Rick H.  

 

Carl thinks he's skiing neither pronated nor supinated, but rather neutral, but if he's skiing properly balanced and countered that's likely not the case. Subtalar neutral doesn't happen until the weight is way up on the ball of the foot, and the heel is about to lift.  Not how you generally want to stand on your foot through the duration of a turn.  Pronation/supination are not as much about if you're trying to tip your feet inside the ski boot or not, as they are about how where you're balanced along the fore/aft plane  of the bottom of the foot, and the rotational state you're assuming, and how the foot responds in accordance.   Carl's counter and centered fore/aft balance in his video suggests his outside foot is actually pronated.  

 

Carl, your understanding of this stuff would better mature if you referred to the foot tipping inside the boots you're talking about as inversion/eversion, as Rick H. suggests, and then study pronation/supination in the greater detail it encompasses.  

post #32 of 46



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

  Carl's counter and centered fore/aft balance in his video suggests his outside foot is actually pronated.  

 

Rick,

Where is Carl's video that you refer to?

post #33 of 46
Thread Starter 

Here's an image. It's newer.

_DSC1645.png

 

Sorry about the terms. I've never heard "inversion/eversion" before.

post #34 of 46

Carl, from videos and pictures you have posted its obvious that you are a very skilled skier, but I think you have even more performance coming your way if you learn to tilt your feet more actively. Look at the picture. Your hip is pretty close to the snow, but your skis coulde be edged more. 

post #35 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Carl, from videos and pictures you have posted its obvious that you are a very skilled skier, but I think you have even more performance coming your way if you learn to tilt your feet more actively. Look at the picture. Your hip is pretty close to the snow, but your skis coulde be edged more. 


 

This is three frames later. Is it better?

_DSC1648.jpg

 

Here's one from an earlier run, just before letting go.

_DSC1594.jpg

 

Very nice day. We had -20 degrees celsius when prepared the slope tonight so hopefully it will firmer on tuesday evening. smile.gif

And finally we built our mogul run! Yay!

post #36 of 46

Looks really good Carl.

 

Do you have some shots of how it looks earlier in the turn?

 

If you can get those angles in the gates you will be ripping. Easier said than done though.

 

New skis? In the three frames later pic it looks like there's quite some torsional twist. What kind of skis and binding do you have?

 

 

BTW, Really good photo quality, what did you take the shots with?

post #37 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

Just checking out how you guys do it. I'm posting the same poll at pmts.

 

:)



You are asking for trouble..... but I think you are missing a vital option in your survey. I supinate my new inside foot within the boot. The outside foot carrying a lot of load stays stacked.

post #38 of 46

 

Quote:
CrudBuster wrote:
 

(BTW- If I hear one more pro say something like, "I just tip my feet" or some crap like that without giving any idea as to how you tip your feet, I will personally write PSIA and tell them to BAN that word.  IMHO, the word is becoming a cop-out word.   I mean, we can describe the ins and outs of what over rotation of the upper body will do to your skis at initiation, but nooooooooo, we can't describe how to tip?  We just say the word, tip). 

 

Great Post. 

 

Does my ankle roll or tip?  Does my arch twist or tip?  Do my toes rotate or tip?  Do I lift my arch or remain neutral?  Do I lift my toes or press them down?  Do I flex my big to for refined pressure? Do I rotate my ankle?  Do I flex my ankle to increase forward pressure.  Do I need forward pressure?  Do I apply the same movements to both feet simultaneously?   There are so many movements and combinations of movements that are masked by the boot shell that are components of "tipping" the feet which may not even be needed to "tip" the ski.

 

Is "tipping" a generic term for "getting the skis on edge" regardless of how you do it?  I've got no problem with that, but it seems a little vague.

post #39 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

Just checking out how you guys do it. I'm posting the same poll at pmts.

 

:)



You are asking for trouble..... but I think you are missing a vital option in your survey. I supinate my new inside foot within the boot. The outside foot carrying a lot of load stays stacked.


I've realized the ommision. I couldn't update the poll here, only at the other site.

Thanks for answering this way. smile.gif

post #40 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Looks really good Carl.

 

Do you have some shots of how it looks earlier in the turn?

 

If you can get those angles in the gates you will be ripping. Easier said than done though.

 

New skis? In the three frames later pic it looks like there's quite some torsional twist. What kind of skis and binding do you have?

 

 

BTW, Really good photo quality, what did you take the shots with?


Thanks! I don't have any good transition images. I was carving large freeride turns and I think those transitions looks less inspiring than SL turns.

 

Getting angles in the course is very difficult. Completely different game. But I have a positive feeling.

 

The skis are my Atomic Metron B5i. Probably the best freecarving ski I've used. They are slower than a proper SL ski in a course, especially when needing to twist the ski, but their grip on ice is magnificent. I'm quite sure that it's snow spraying under the skis that fools the eye. The bindings are Atomic Neox 12 which quite frankly sucks. The toepiece releases whenever it feels like. I can kick some snow on flat ground and loose the ski. The Atomic rep doesn't give a ****. Look here for a laugh.

 

The photos were taken by a friend who has a nice Nikon D-something-700. He had a large lens with a very fast focus, but I have no idea what brand or model.

post #41 of 46

Carl, you have opened up a can of worms on several levels.

First and foremost, Pronation involves an external (lateral) rotation of the forefoot, supination involves an internal (medial) rotation of the forefoot. Inversion and eversion moves the sole of the foot without the rotary we see in sup /pronation. Add to that the idea of in skiing, raising the arch usually is accompanied by an external rotation of the foot/leg and lowering the arch usually involves internally rotating the foot/leg. That is exactly the opposite of the rotation we would see in sup/pronation. As an ESL poster I hope this helps you understand sup/pronation better.

As far as your question about articulating the foot inside the boot? I can and regularly do exactly that. Especially on harder snow and race ice. Not in isolation though, the knees displace as we tip the skis. That also means the hip and pelvis articulate to facilitate a balanced stance, or as the PMTS folks would say counter balance to create a balanced stance.

 

Like RicB pointed out the RoM inside the boot is very limited and add to that the idea that it also may depend on the type of footbeds you have and if they are posted so that small foot movement is more restricted. Same goes for how tight you wear your boots. "Racer tight fit" in some extreme examples means icing your feet just to get them into the boots, all day tight performance fit is a bit looser where blood flow isn't as restricted and recreational tight is even looser. So more RoM of the subtalar joint would be possible. And we haven't even talked about lateral stiffness and the different amount of space inside a plug and a rec boot. See the problem? With so many variables it's difficult to offer more than extremely general rules about the foot articulating inside a ski boot.

post #42 of 46

Do they still do ski canting?  I once had a 3deg cant on one ski.

 

Corrected any problems with twisting/ catching edges.

 

Then somehow I had it moved 3 degrees the wrong direction?  Couldn't ski worth crap

then so I took the cant off.

post #43 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdskier View Post

Do they still do ski canting?  I once had a 3deg cant on one ski.

 

Corrected any problems with twisting/ catching edges.

 

Then somehow I had it moved 3 degrees the wrong direction?  Couldn't ski worth crap

then so I took the cant off.



Can you be more specific regarding "ski canting"? How was the ski canted? Why did you not go back to the original 3deg canting?

post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Carl, you have opened up a can of worms on several levels.

First and foremost, Pronation involves an external (lateral) rotation of the forefoot, supination involves an internal (medial) rotation of the forefoot. Inversion and eversion moves the sole of the foot without the rotary we see in sup /pronation. Add to that the idea of in skiing, raising the arch usually is accompanied by an external rotation of the foot/leg and lowering the arch usually involves internally rotating the foot/leg. That is exactly the opposite of the rotation we would see in sup/pronation. As an ESL poster I hope this helps you understand sup/pronation better.

As far as your question about articulating the foot inside the boot? I can and regularly do exactly that. Especially on harder snow and race ice. Not in isolation though, the knees displace as we tip the skis. That also means the hip and pelvis articulate to facilitate a balanced stance, or as the PMTS folks would say counter balance to create a balanced stance.

 

Like RicB pointed out the RoM inside the boot is very limited and add to that the idea that it also may depend on the type of footbeds you have and if they are posted so that small foot movement is more restricted. Same goes for how tight you wear your boots. "Racer tight fit" in some extreme examples means icing your feet just to get them into the boots, all day tight performance fit is a bit looser where blood flow isn't as restricted and recreational tight is even looser. So more RoM of the subtalar joint would be possible. And we haven't even talked about lateral stiffness and the different amount of space inside a plug and a rec boot. See the problem? With so many variables it's difficult to offer more than extremely general rules about the foot articulating inside a ski boot.


Good posting. IMO when Im skiing on ice or a race course ancle tipping goes down to a minimum. First of all there is no time for thinking about foot tipping and secondly the boot is closed soo tightly that the ancle really doesent move much. As one guy put it: in this weekends races the ski was bumping so violantly that I was affraid that my binding would relese. In such cases you dont think about tipping your ancles. However, on hero snow in performance boots carving outside the gates inside ancle tipping can help you get your inside leg tipped more on edge. Inside leg ancle tipping is IMO anyways more a mental thing and it creates some pressure even if it doesent move.

post #45 of 46

I thought this was a silly poll, but I actually figured out I was wrong--at least for an avid learner like me--although as some have pointed out the question was awkardly stated. 

 

It's been hard to figure out what people meant by initiating a turn with my feet, tilting my feet, etc.  I know for a fact that my foot and ankle can't move side to side or tilt because my boots are tight and new and the only motion I can make with my lower leg (below the knee) is fore and aft at the ankle.  I came to alpine skiing thinking with my core, as I'd done with yoga, martial arts, carpentry, climbing, biking, even target practice and backpacking (not all at once, of course).  So pressing down or to the side in my boots has to start higher up in my body.  I still know that.

 

But if I focus on pressing down on the inside or outside of my foot, suddenly I'm able to start dropping all that stuff and just let the skis do their job.  I'm controlling pressure and angle on the snow by thinking about the pressure on my foot, without getting caught up in how my core and legs create that pressure.  Since I've taken this approach, I've noticed that my CM is crossing over my skis (or my skis are floating back and forth under my CM) and I can now get my feet closer together and parallel.  But most of all I notice that everything seems easier and that more is now within reach, which gives me confidence that I can not only ski more terrain but can learn to do it even better.  So all the contortions that make up most of my bad habits are things that I know should work but just mess me up while learning to ski.

 

I expect that as I progress I'll learn how to think more about my core.  But it's starting at the bottom, as it were, that's enabled me to let go. 

post #46 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdskier View Post

Do they still do ski canting?  I once had a 3deg cant on one ski.

 

Corrected any problems with twisting/ catching edges.

 

Then somehow I had it moved 3 degrees the wrong direction?  Couldn't ski worth crap

then so I took the cant off.


Ummmm ... did you put the skis on the wrong feet? biggrin.gif

.ma
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