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Shoguns vs Gotamas (the white ones) for a "take west" ski -- advise wanted

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

I live in Minnesota and get to the Rockies about one week a year.  Right now my "go to" ski for that trip is the white Gotama (older - but not sure of the year) and I like it. I have got a line on some Shogans for a decent price and am wondering if I should retire the Goats and pull the trigger on the Shogans? 

 

(when I am in the mts, I like to ski stuff I don't get im the big Minn -- unskiied powder if I am lucky, powder stashes I can find, left over powder after the feeding frenzy, steep chutes Baldy chutes at - don't mind a little hike - Alta and so forth) 185-190 lbs - 6 ft tall. High level skills.  - Just maybe somewhat slower and more cautious than the locals.

 

I did use the search and found some info on the and have a general idea -- Shogan = a little better in powder (softer with some rocker) Gotama = better on the groomed, stiffer, full length side cut. 

 

Would like to hear some opinions -- Some personal slant on the pros and cons of these two skiis.

 

Thanks

post #2 of 21

Don't retire the goats. If you like them keep them and us 'em. Otherwise sell them. People would buy them from you.

post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

Don't retire the goats. If you like them keep them and us 'em. Otherwise sell them. People would buy them from you.


Thanks for the advise. I am hearing the buzz about "rocker" and that is pulliing on me, but not quite enough to buy a pair (maybe at a deal to good to pass up I'd buy).

 

 I will think seriously about demoing next time out in powder country.  The downside is that I hate to waste the time with the process.  I am always driven to get the planks on and hit the goods before its gone.

post #4 of 21

Tromano's right. The old (pre-rockered) Goats are classics, very smooth big mountain, do all ski. You never know when you travel whether you'll end up in bottomless pow or stuff from four days ago. Nice to have something that will handle hardpack and firm bumps in trees well. 

post #5 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

Tromano's right. The old (pre-rockered) Goats are classics, very smooth big mountain, do all ski. You never know when you travel whether you'll end up in bottomless pow or stuff from four days ago. Nice to have something that will handle hardpack and firm bumps in trees well. 


Thanks to both of you -- I knew I liked the Goats, now I like them even more. I even like to ski them on my own hill when the snow is soft or the edges are left ungroomed and cruddy.  Helps me keep my touch/ feel/balance in tune for what I see out west. 

post #6 of 21

I sked the EP pro today in a foot of fresh and tried them on the groomed steeps freshly groomed. -17c out, Im 6ft 230lbs expert skier and they slayed it!! Im accually making them an offer on the demo I was on in the morrning. They railed the groomer WAY better than I could ever have thought, and well, in the powder I never ever skied the powder as good as I did today. I was giddy!! Had way to much fun on this ski. I would HIGHLEY recomend a demo on the EP pro boot center was perfection for me. Not a word of a lie you can ski in a stance like you would be railing the groomed with a 85mm waisted ski and CARVE powder like your sking a groomed run!! I was blown away!! Fast slow what ever. The groomed performance was the big selling point. They are 127 under foot and I ski on Nordica Jetfuels most of the time. I had as much fun the two runs down a steep groomer as I would have carving my Jetfuels. Powder was stupid relaxing and fun beyond belief!! Could do what ever i wanted really forgiving. Highly recomend trying these skis on any kind of softer snow day. I could accually see myself skiing groomed runs all day on these if they werent Ice. Thats how fun even on groomed they were. Totaly exeeded my expactations. Maybe there is better all rounders out there i dont know. I accually havent tryed to many other skis exept the JJ. For my ski instructor/ racer type of skiing these skied without me having to adjust my normal style/stance. Thats what I really liked. Slolom turns GS turns in the powder like i was on a groomed run. Railing powder lay them over. Also zipper lining the powder? It didnt matter what I tryed they did it with ease that I never could have thought possable for me. So there. Ya I loved them can ya tell!!biggrin.gif

post #7 of 21

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Uhhhhh.......I don't think the OP mentioned those among his choices.

 

SJ

post #8 of 21

I wouldn't assume that the Gotama is better on the groomed or skier packed without trying both skis for yourself. No one can tell you that conclusively. I prefer the Shogun over the Gotama for a wide range of conditions. It is a more sophisticated construction, beyond softwood and fiberglass. I think the Shogun represents the best of new ideas for a daily driver out west, albeit in a moderate design.

 

I tested both: Shogun = wow.  Gotama = eh? clear differences.

 

The old Gotama is nothing special beyond useful dimensions, IMO.

post #9 of 21

^^^^ Well, since he already owns the early Goats, that's a mark in their favor. As in, paid for. Disagree strongly with opinion about < 2010 Goats; as with most users (read Sierra Jim's comments about them, or stuff over on TGR) found them to be unusually supple in tight places, decent carvers, very loose and surfy in soft snow. The torsion box construction gave them a lot of life and they were weirdly light (many used them for AT, weighed less than Mantras as I recall.). Thus, the reason people will snap up his if he sells is that they're classic skis.

 

Haven't skied the Shogun, reviews indicate it's a nice ski. The question is, is it actually better enough to justify the opportunity costs (as in, spend the $$ on a different ski altogether instead of same/slightly improved version of what you already have)? 

 

If the $$ are burning a hole in your pocket, I'd keep the Goats, get something like a S7 or Praxis Protest. If it's been snowing where you're off to, take the fun shapes. If not, take the Goats. Win-win. 

post #10 of 21

I didn't read anywhere that the OP was thinking about a new ski but had no money, that is, preferred a ski that he already owned, is paid for,  so as not to spend money. anyway, how would no money  or already paid for affect anyone here?biggrin.gif

 

Sierra Jim is a truth sayer of biblical proportions here, and well earned, but I have no problem expressing different preferences and ideas, and I'm sure he doesn't either.

 

Someone could also summarize all the qualities you attribute to the Gotama in one word: weak.

 

Is it really necessary to bolster your opinion with what maggots say or what everyone would buy? He said, she said....(second hand knowledge). It doesn't give that opinion more weight, IMO, because I already know I disagree with most of those skiers anyway, and so might the OP who is asking for a personal slant.  Which is not the same as current trend analysis. 

post #11 of 21

Well, you're certainly gonna give a personal slant. But coupa points: First, I'm not "bolstering my opinion." I argue differently than you. I like to cite evidence. I analyze data. I find most "opinions" just that, and not as sacrosanct as many Americans do. "It's just my opinion" is right up there with "Anything to say before we turn on the current?" as useless phrases. So I cited SJ (who I certainly don't think is a high holy anything, go read my post about Start Haus) and some folks at TGR who've talked about/reviewed Goats in detail, pro and con, as a sort of shorthand for "don't want to do your work for you, try a search." In point of fact, < 2010 Goats have gotten positive first hand reviews from nearly everyone who's owned them. I've owned three pair, and wish I had kept one. The reviews have been detailed, rather than the compact "nothing special." You're the outlier, and being so doesn't (gasp) make your opinion any more special or interesting. So you like your Shoguns. That's great. I like my skis too, mostly, but don't assume they're the solution to all skiers' problems. 

 

Second, if the OP has no concern for $$, he must be unusual - as my father in law sez, the more money you make, the more money you worry about keeping - but opportunity costs were the point I made. If he replaces (to repeat my argument) one good ski with another, similar ski, he uses up the opportunity to go for something actually different.

 

Third, while you make think you scored +8 for saying "someone could" (nice avoidance of a logical argument that can be pinned down) find the attributes of the Goat I mentioned "weak," I fail to see how "unusually supple in tight places, decent carver...loose and surfy in soft snow" could be construed as weak. Let's try the inverse: "Unusually unbending in tight places, mediocre carver...tight and carvy in soft snow." Uh, yep, these are qualities "someone could" seek in a powder ski. Would you? 

post #12 of 21

Without going personal, or going into the details.  If I were in your situation and could only bring one ski, I would bring the Shogun, if you could bring two pairs out West, I'd bring the Goat and something true powdery (S7/JJ-like, or PR115/Atlas, etc.).  

 

post #13 of 21
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the comments -- Looks I can't go far wrong with either and it certainly boils down to if "am I willing to spend the money". Right nowI am thinking I won't find too many chances like this to ease into the rocker tech in a all around ski at a bargain price.  I will let you know if make the purchase and eventually my opinions.

post #14 of 21

citing anonymous hear say is not evidence. and it's a "weak" way to try to give your personal argument weight. In fact, what a person feels actually skiing on a certain model is about as real as an evaluation gets. Reviews vary, each of equal value or lack of value as the other.

post #15 of 21

Shogun is not quite a rocker ski, the rocker is pretty small by today's standards.  if you want to "ease into a rocker", you should jump in and get a true rockered wide powder ski.   Of course nothing beats a good ski at a great price ;-)
-

post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

citing anonymous hear say is not evidence. and it's a "weak" way to try to give your personal argument weight. In fact, what a person feels actually skiing on a certain model is about as real as an evaluation gets. Reviews vary, each of equal value or lack of value as the other.

This is a totally b.s. remark. Do you want legal citations or quotes from every review of every ski that anyone here brings up? The English language as used online has usages such as "I've heard," or "a lot of people like/don't like" that substitute for exhaustive (and boring) citations or links. Are we gonna jump over to scholarly journal style at Epic? Maybe Harvard Law Review usage?

 

And your comment about what a person "feels" being as real as an evaluation gets is nonsensical. A good ski review covers conditions, various terrain, and if the skier knows enough about the ski, evals of issues like shape, camber, weight, and so on. I may get two or three demo runs on a certain ski, not necessarily in good tune or in the right length. Is my "actually skiing" going to be a better sense of the ski than someone's season on it? For instance, I demoed some Nordica Burners a few seasons ago, was very unimpressed. But the strong reviews convinced me that my experience was atypical, probably the day or the ski (longer than I wanted). So I bought a pair this season as part of SJ's "Armada" sale, correct length. They're great. My subjective two run experience was not a good indicator. eek.gif

 

Reviews vary, obviously. But they are no more all of equal value than all reviewers are equal in terms of their tastes, similarity to you, or experience. Or the opinions of the White House Chief of Staff are equal to mine concerning how the federal bureaucracy works. Some pieces of evidence are more valuable than others. That's law, science, medicine, the works. Stop flailing on this one with spurious arguments. Non-rockered Goats were good skis, and your experience, however personally important to you, is an outlier. It is less representative of their value to others than the average experience out here. (Also a basic tenet of statistics, in case you want to take that on too...)
 

post #17 of 21


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skugrud View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

Don't retire the goats. If you like them keep them and us 'em. Otherwise sell them. People would buy them from you.


Thanks for the advise. I am hearing the buzz about "rocker" and that is pulliing on me, but not quite enough to buy a pair (maybe at a deal to good to pass up I'd buy).

 

 I will think seriously about demoing next time out in powder country.  The downside is that I hate to waste the time with the process.  I am always driven to get the planks on and hit the goods before its gone.


Shoguns and classic gotamas are in the same class -- both are great skis for a western daily driver. You don't need to make a change unless you really want to. I would demo some new designs before you buy. See if you like them better than the goats.

 

post #18 of 21


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skugrud View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

Don't retire the goats. If you like them keep them and us 'em. Otherwise sell them. People would buy them from you.


Thanks for the advise. I am hearing the buzz about "rocker" and that is pulliing on me, but not quite enough to buy a pair (maybe at a deal to good to pass up I'd buy).

 

 I will think seriously about demoing next time out in powder country.  The downside is that I hate to waste the time with the process.  I am always driven to get the planks on and hit the goods before its gone.


Shoguns and classic gotamas are in the same class -- both are great skis for a western daily driver. If your goats are in good shape then you don't need to make a change unless you really want to. I would demo new rockered skis before you buy. See if you like them better than the goats.

 

Then when you find a deal this spring make your move.

post #19 of 21

A buddy just got back last night from sking lots of the 2012 skis at the show up hear at Big White. The real stand out was the new Armada TST. He said it will be the biggest hit next year for all conditions. They had knee deep powder and firm groomers and that ski was one of the very best. Line no longer makes the EP pro but have a nother ski that 118 at the waist that is a real nice ski also. You can buy the pre sale Armadas right now at select locations. EVO has them I dont know who else. That would be a great ski for what this conversation is about.

 

     I ended up buy the last EP pro yesterday. I just cant say enough about the fun factor and railing groomers on this ski at 127 under foot. Its going to be a one Q ski for me other than icey groomer days. its that good. Powder performance is second to none. Its the railing groomers that sold me for this ski as a daily driver.  

post #20 of 21

Since we review skis a lot, it's relevant to point out, the OP asked for a personal slant, and I gave mine. Why do you, beyond, have a problem with that? I didn't say you couldn't offer your personal experience with these models, but you would like me to withold my experience, saying it does not align well with your background knowledge and the legions who agree with you. It's not a democracy, we don't have to end up with a majority consensus here, rather a lot of personal slants. Different skis work well on different mountains. You don't ski mine, or I yours, so we are without that frame of reference.  People like the Shogun here this season for a daily driver, some still like the goat in powder, not so much as a few years ago. that's some info I'm providing the OP. 

post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

Since we review skis a lot, it's relevant to point out, the OP asked for a personal slant, and I gave mine. Why do you, beyond, have a problem with that? I didn't say you couldn't offer your personal experience with these models, but you would like me to withold my experience, saying it does not align well with your background knowledge and the legions who agree with you. It's not a democracy, we don't have to end up with a majority consensus here, rather a lot of personal slants. Different skis work well on different mountains. You don't ski mine, or I yours, so we are without that frame of reference.  People like the Shogun here this season for a daily driver, some still like the goat in powder, not so much as a few years ago. that's some info I'm providing the OP. 


I have no problem whatsoever with you offering your personal take on a ski. Never said I did. What I do have a problem with is your need to attack other folks who do things here a bit differently than you. As in, offer personal take plus summary of others' stated personal takes. (Really quite common around here, as is offering feedback that is a touch different than the OP asks for. Perhaps that's "weak," and probably we should have moderators delete any post that doesn't specifically address the precise terms of reference used by the OP, no more, no less. What this place needs is some DISCIPLINE!!  wink.gif

 

And as for having to end up with a majority consensus, nope, we don't. Won't ever. But again, never said we should, did I? Just said, in several ways (links, italicized quotes, and OED definienda to follow) that 1) I disagreed with you, and 2) Your opinion about Goats was different than the average opinion here or on TGR. Now that's a statement of statistical reality. Go spend a month researching all reviews and posts about all pre 2010 Goats on all web sites, and report back if you think I'm blowing smoke.

 

Is it invalid or "weak" to bring up the typical take on gear? Well, an ad populum argument is a logical fallacy. So if I had said, "keep your Goats because everyone else does," that's fallacious. But what I said was ( Premise 1): "Well, since he already owns the early Goats, that's a mark in their favor. As in, paid for." (Premise 2, actually a conclusion from embedded premises supported by empirical evidence): Disagree (because)...as with most users ...(I) found them to be unusually supple in tight places, decent carvers, very loose and surfy in soft snow. The torsion box construction gave them a lot of life and they were weirdly light (many used them for AT, weighed less than Mantras as I recall.)" (Premise 3): "The question is, is it (Shogun) actually better enough to justify the opportunity costs...)So looks pretty much OK as a logical argument.

 

Now is it arguing that you don't count because your opinion is contrary to the majority? Nope. Having an opinion about skis, foods, or politicians that's different from the mean hopefully happens to all of us part of the time. Healthy for our egos. And it doesn't make our opinion less important in itself. But it also doesn't erase the reality of the center of the curve; most people's "personal slant" is otherwise than ours on topic X. The realization that an opinion, or observation of something, or personal action, can be atypical, and that its location in the curve has significance to how we look at it, seems like a foundation of modern intellectual activity, from molecular biology to histories of French food to Supreme Court briefs. Which is why I stated: "Some pieces of evidence are are valuable than others." and referred later to outliers. If I want to buy a car, and it gets 95% buyer satisfaction ratings somewhere, I might glance at the 5% out of due diligence, but I pay far more attention to the fact that almost everybody liked his or her car. Why that is so really really maddening to hear, I have no idea...th_dunno-1[1].gif Here, this may help:

 

 

OP: PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO DAVLURI'S OPINION ABOUT GOATS.  All better now? 

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