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Mythbusting the QCT (short turn MA) - Page 4  

post #91 of 117

Tomba.jpg

post #92 of 117

dakine, did you want to tell us what that image is meant to show?

post #93 of 117

The edge set is for getting more rebound  out of the turns and get higher above the fall line, stay in the fall line or as speed control on steep runs and allows the skier to stay on there line. So they can turn at the exact spot they wanted to.  As I have said once the ski is loaded all the skier needs to do is put the skis on edge or tip the ski and use speed or gravity to build up the pressure on the ski when tipped and the ski will turn. What was said in the video that most people buy boots they can not flex. Like a 150 race boot. We do not ski a soft boot more of a medium flexing boot. Like a 120.

 

The QCT to me is just the same turn with the ski doing the work and the skier just makes the movements to make this happen. I call it a short radius but call it what you want short swing to me means the same thing.

post #94 of 117

 

Quote:
skitansky wrote:
 

tdk, i think you are misunderstanding the QCT. it is a swing turn that ends in a hard edge check

 

 

Not really sure what defines a "swing turn", but the QCT doesn't utilize an edge check, it a firm edge "set" at the finish or through the finish of the turn.  The amount of pressure is variable, depending on speed/energy that needs to be dumped, and is moved from the shovel to the tail at the turn finish, fore/aft movement of pressure.  This is a very smooth edge/pressure build up as the skis are already tracking an arc as they are on edge and are starting to return back across the fall line.

 

I consider an edge check to be similar to a hockey stop, where the skis are quickly pivoted to change direction and as the skier down weights, usually sharply, on a static and previously unpressure ski that is now close to perpendicular to the fall line.

 

Quote:
geoffda wrote:

There really isn't any similarity at all  between Harald's turns and the QCT.  The QCT doesn't seem to use the ski for anything more than to generate a platform to rebound off of.  Once the ski is light it is then pivotted or steered to another late hit edge set.

 

The QCT is basically round or eliptical, as is HH's turn, which results from tipping or rolling the ski over on edge to carve.  The biggest difference is that HH's turn is ssssllllooooowwwww and not nearly as dynamic as a QCT.  These carved short turns, which aren't very short,  require a much larger radius which often requires the body to move back and forth across the fall line to follow the skis, resulting in a much broader fall line.  These turns can't hold the direct technical line because the skis and skier must deflect to far off the direct fall line.

 

Quote:
geoffda wrote:
 
When Harald skis bumps, the ski does all of the work.

 

Walking on water should be no trouble then.

 

Quote:
geoffda wrote:
 
As his skis come up the bump, he flexes and tips onto his new edges, pulling his feet back as he goes to keep snow contact.  He continues to increase his tipping angles while counteracting which brings the skis around quickly.  He gets his speed control from the turn itself, so there is no need for a hard edgeset at the bottom, nor does he have to stuff the tips.  In fact, he can release early because he gets most of his speed control done in the high C.

 

How broad of a fall line are we talking about here?  I mean, there is bump skiing and then there is fall line bump skiing, then there is crawling down the bumps in a very wide fall line.  You are claiming there is NO need for more pressure at the bottom of the turn than what one generates at the high C while fall line bump skiing on firm moguls to gain speed control????  I'm sure you or HH has a video recording of this, it would be very enlightening to see, I know I would appreciate a link.

 

I agree HH doesn't "stuff his tips", it's not by choice though,  it's that he can't "stuff his tips" with a turn that only uses tipping with even edge pressure throughout the turn.  It takes a very tight radius and dynamic QCT to repetitively turn into the mogul face (stuff the tips) and hold the technical line.

 

I like HH's skiing and I really like his teaching system from what I've seen and read.  Take that system and ADD the pressure/movement dynamics discussed in this thread to the turn and you've got a QCT.   :)

 

post #95 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

Tomba.jpg



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post

dakine, did you want to tell us what that image is meant to show?



Tomba....

Demonstrated master of the quick carved turn.

 

post #96 of 117

 

The downward pressure and edge check is a part of the technique that isn't mentioned much.

 

cjv may want to add more to the summary I put together here -

 

From SVMM DVD-

 

Quote:
Alot of people like to get into ski boots that are too stiff for them. Which means they can't really flex them so when they get out there they can't create the forces needed to turn the ski. This boot here [boot he is wearing] is a technica that is far down the line. So I can flex it. Watch it flex as I put my ankle and knees forward. I flex forward. See how it goes forward. My butt sinks straight down. That's how you flex your skis. You put them on edge and you push down on top of them.

Flex

  

In the DVD there is a section with the subheading "Springboard Your Skis With an Agressive Check" while the author is talking about an "agressive check" many times. The video then shows two skiers making turns with an agressive edge check. At 11:53 author says "...aggressive edge check plant the pole for the next turn". Later in the video there is the section titled "SPEED CONTROL - With an Agressive Check and Sit at Every Turn". The author says, "Now we definitely want to sit and hit our edge set hard, the hard check with a sit on the mogul, to slow us down..."

 

Key parts of the technique I learned from the DVD are pressing down hard by flexing the ankles and knees forward, creating an agressive edge check for rebound which creates knee angulation, keeping skis in contact with the snow by absorption/extension.

 

The best line to ski is called skiing the FALL LINE, key is snow contact by absorption/extension.

 

A short "swing turn" is what is taught on the SVMM DVD. From the DVD there is the section titled "STARTING IN MOGULS - Use The Same Short Swing Turn As On The Groomed Runs". The naration says when skiing moguls remember to use the same type of short swing turns we've been practicing on the groomed runs.

post #97 of 117

That may be the best post yet.

I'm really trying to figure out what you guys are talking about.

Yesterday I was trying out some of this stuff on my slalom skis.

Boot tongue pressure is the key to making these things work without getting seriously worked.

What I was doing wasn't so much finishing with a strong check as it was letting the pressure build and the arc shorten until I got to the point that I had to release the edges before the skis compressed me beyond my ability to stand back up agains the g force.

That make any sense?

 

I have two identical pair of Atomic boots, one 90 flex and one 120 flex.

I wouldn't try to do what I was doing on the 90 flex pair for fear of things getting out of control with the SL skis.

Perhaps the soft boot angle of the QCT requires skis that have tails with stiffness matched to the boots?

post #98 of 117

I use 80 flex boots and buckle them in the first catch. I love the feel they give me as I can flex my ankles every which way I want to create the pressure I want. Whether it's carving or skiing moguls.

 

It's such a great feeling when you can actually feel the ankles make the edge dig in the snow. The flip side of this is a smoother transition period when the skis are flat. It allows you to be quicker in my estimation.

post #99 of 117

When it is over 40 degrees F I feel like I'm telemarking in my 90 flexes.

Most of my skis are pretty stiff (Volkls) and I like to be able to initiate turns with tongue pressure to load the tips on hard snow.

This is even more so with my 21 m women's gs skis which take a lot of angle and strong pressure right in front of the boot before anything happens.

I use the 90 flexes with my mid fats on softer stuff.

 

All this stuff about boot flex and how it aligns with ski flex and technique is probably another thread.

 

Isn't this the aggressive check and pole plant?

HirscherSL,Montage,Web.jpg

 

post #100 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

 

Isn't this the aggressive check and pole plant?

 


That turn doesn't look like the turns shown on the DVD.
 

post #101 of 117

Most of us haven't seen the DVD so that's why we are polking around in the fog.

 

I'd also give your right whatchamacallum to be able to make turns like the one above.

Maybe if the guy in the DVD was a world cup rockstar who could squat a volkswagen, his turns would look like that.

What's different?

Hirscher is getting a lot of ankle flex as he really loads the edges then transfers this energy into his upper body to vault into the next turn.

Frame 7 is particularly interesting to me.

post #102 of 117

The guy that made the DVD is a rockstar and champion mogul skier!

 

The turns on the DVD are short swing turns used in bumps.

 

 

The turn you linked above is a WC SL turn.

 

  

 

post #103 of 117

One of the more interesting aspects of this approach is that you're talking about using movements that I have been intentionally removing from my skiing over the past 7 years or so. While I can certainly make those movements and those kinds of turns, they aren't appealing to me, probably because I'm more interested in reducing the amount of energy I burn per turn and per run in order to extend my day and my skiing years.

 

It's interesting, though...

post #104 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

 

Quote:
skitansky wrote:
 

tdk, i think you are misunderstanding the QCT. it is a swing turn that ends in a hard edge check

 

 

Not really sure what defines a "swing turn", but the QCT doesn't utilize an edge check, it a firm edge "set" at the finish or through the finish of the turn.  The amount of pressure is variable, depending on speed/energy that needs to be dumped, and is moved from the shovel to the tail at the turn finish, fore/aft movement of pressure.  This is a very smooth edge/pressure build up as the skis are already tracking an arc as they are on edge and are starting to return back across the fall line.

 

I consider an edge check to be similar to a hockey stop, where the skis are quickly pivoted to change direction and as the skier down weights, usually sharply, on a static and previously unpressure ski that is now close to perpendicular to the fall line.

  



Sorry for using bad language. Your description is how I see it as well.

post #105 of 117

Ski,

Thanks, I saw that bump vid.

I'm just not sure what the bump guy and what the WC guy are doing is much different technically except for the stylistic difference of skis together.

Check this out starting at about 6:40...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qH5Cpr3Kc0

 

That guy can ski bumps too and I don't think he changes his technique much.

post #106 of 117

Well, Bode isn't known for his good technique. He's known for taking unusual lines and somehow making it work.

There has been several coaches that has tried to make their skiers ski like Bode, but the end result of that is always failure.

post #107 of 117

 

Quote:
dakine wrote:
 
I'm just not sure what the bump guy and what the WC guy are doing is much different technically except for the stylistic difference of skis together.

 

The terrain each skier is skiing is very different, the slopes pitches are most likely different and the fall lines are very different, tight vs. broad.  While a lot of movements of each skier is making may be similar, the timing of the movements is certainly different.

post #108 of 117

Thread drift...back to SVMM and their technique.

post #109 of 117

 

true.

I'll shut up.

But, in the bump vid there are a few places where the guy really turns to change his line and it looks familiar to me.

post #110 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

 

Quote:
geoffda wrote:

There really isn't any similarity at all  between Harald's turns and the QCT.  The QCT doesn't seem to use the ski for anything more than to generate a platform to rebound off of.  Once the ski is light it is then pivotted or steered to another late hit edge set.

 

The QCT is basically round or eliptical, as is HH's turn, which results from tipping or rolling the ski over on edge to carve.  The biggest difference is that HH's turn is ssssllllooooowwwww and not nearly as dynamic as a QCT.  These carved short turns, which aren't very short,  require a much larger radius which often requires the body to move back and forth across the fall line to follow the skis, resulting in a much broader fall line.  These turns can't hold the direct technical line because the skis and skier must deflect to far off the direct fall line.

 

 

Quote:
geoffda wrote:
 
When Harald skis bumps, the ski does all of the work.

 

Walking on water should be no trouble then.

 

Quote:
geoffda wrote:
 
As his skis come up the bump, he flexes and tips onto his new edges, pulling his feet back as he goes to keep snow contact.  He continues to increase his tipping angles while counteracting which brings the skis around quickly.  He gets his speed control from the turn itself, so there is no need for a hard edgeset at the bottom, nor does he have to stuff the tips.  In fact, he can release early because he gets most of his speed control done in the high C.

 

How broad of a fall line are we talking about here?  I mean, there is bump skiing and then there is fall line bump skiing, then there is crawling down the bumps in a very wide fall line.  You are claiming there is NO need for more pressure at the bottom of the turn than what one generates at the high C while fall line bump skiing on firm moguls to gain speed control????  I'm sure you or HH has a video recording of this, it would be very enlightening to see, I know I would appreciate a link.

 

I agree HH doesn't "stuff his tips", it's not by choice though,  it's that he can't "stuff his tips" with a turn that only uses tipping with even edge pressure throughout the turn.  It takes a very tight radius and dynamic QCT to repetitively turn into the mogul face (stuff the tips) and hold the technical line.

 

I like HH's skiing and I really like his teaching system from what I've seen and read.  Take that system and ADD the pressure/movement dynamics discussed in this thread to the turn and you've got a QCT.   :)

 


Yes, when you tip your feet you get engagement at the top of the arc.  Not only that you get control at the top of the arc.  There are certainly plenty of ways to get from one set of edges to the other, but foot tipping is the only way that gives you the level of control that you need to get true high c engagement.  Of course Harald's turns seem SLOW.  That's because he is able to engage the ski immediately and get performance out of the high c.  Watching Harald make carved short turns down something steep is as amazing as trying to follow his tracks is demoralizing.  It is like he is in slow motion through transition.  Then the turn executes in real time, then back to slow motion for the next transition.  When you look at his tracks, you can see a bit of a stretch through transition, but you can also see that he is on his new edges while the skis are finishing the old turn. The amount of time that this gives him before he needs to move into the fall line is something you have to see to believe.

 

Most people really don't understand the importance of this.  I was at my kid's ski race yesterday and I watched some 200 kids run slalom.  Of those kids there were only maybe 10 that were actually using foot tipping and of those maybe only four or five that had all of the supporting movements down.  The two best boys in age class had the complete game.  The fastest girl in age class also had it.  Those were your top three skiers and those were your fastest three skiers by a large margin.  And there was a J5 or a J6 (can't remember now) that was a coaches kid that had it.  Those four skiers were the only ones who got performance out of the ski at the top of the arc.  That's what tipping does for you. 

 

There were plenty of other skiers that looked good, but couldn't compete because they were trying to transition with their hips.  When you do that, you have no control over the high c.  Once your hips move into the turn, you have to head down the fall line.  So your choice is either to stay in the old turn longer than you want and be late or cut off the top of the high c so you can stay on line which usually screws up the next turn.  When you tip, you can get on your new edges while be being able to delay full commitment to the new turn until you are ready.  I can't do this yet, but the best racers can.

 

When you contrast this with the QCT's I've seen, there is nothing going on with the ski until the bottom of the turn.  They are a rebound turn where the ski is light and inactive through the top of the turn.  The turns may be "round" and I'm not saying that when Joey does them they don't look good, but the ski isn't doing any work other than establishing a platform with which to move into the new turn.  There is no engagement going on until after the fall line.  Perhaps this is necessary to get the level of quickness required to ski the technical line; I don't know.  Harald definitely doesn't ski the technical line & doesn't try.  I've never tried it so I don't know either.  Then again, I've seen foot speed out of Harald that I can't match on my best day so who knows?  What  I do know is that high c carving in the bumps produces an excellent turn for recreational bump skiing that uses the same movements that I use everywhere else.  I also know that it produces a turn that requires far less energy than if I were to be more active with my skis.  I can ski more bumps without stopping and I'm not completely wasted after a day of skiing.  The only place I ever feel it is in my hamstrings.  I also know that the movements that Harald teaches are the same movements that the best alpine racers in the world are using.  These are the things that I'm looking for.  YMMV.

 

Look, I'm not at all trying to bash on the QCT.  I've always admired Joey's skiing from a pure aesthetic standpoint.  I love watching him jam the bumps and as a (insert ridiculous number here)-time world champion I can totally understand why people would want to emulate him.  I could absolutely believe that the QCT is a world class turn for bumpers.  No question, Joey's skiing is absolutely dynamic, but that in and of itself tells you that it is different from what Harald is teaching.  Back in the day, Harald wanted to emulate Stenmark and Stenmark's free skiing.  Stenmark is a technician.  He skis with precision and as Harald has said, when you watch him free ski, what you see is absolute consistency and what most people (who don't know what they are looking at) would describe as boring. 

 

If you (or anybody else) wants to ski like Joey, more power to you.  My only point in this post and the previous was simply to make sure that everyone understands that there are vast differences in technique between the two approaches (which hopefully I've made somewhat clear).   The QCT (at least as I've seen it executed in this and other threads) has nothing in common with the type of short turn Harald teaches; it is fundamentally opposite in approach.  I'll say it one last time.  If you want to understand ski technique, start with the feet.  How a skier uses (or does not use) their feet says everything about their understanding of how skiing works and their idea of how to use a ski.

post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post

 when you tip your feet you get engagement at the top of the arc.  Not only that you get control at the top of the arc.  There are certainly plenty of ways to get from one set of edges to the other, but foot tipping is the only way that gives you the level of control that you need to get true high c engagement.  Of course Harald's turns seem SLOW.  That's because he is able to engage the ski immediately and get performance out of the high c.  Watching Harald make carved short turns down something steep is as amazing as trying to follow his tracks is demoralizing.  

HH's short turns on the steeps are massively pivoted.  There is usually no high C engagement and speed control at all.  He pivots all the way to the falline, then engages and does his speed control at and below the falline.  He powers his big pivots with anticipation and a blocking pole plant.  That turning technique is clear to see in this video.  Watch the slow mo portions in particular.  They make the  anticipation and big pivot blatantly obvious.   See the body face down the falline and strong pole plant as he transitions between turns.  Watch the skis leave the snow, the tails swing around, and skis quickly twist downhill.  See engagement and snow spray delayed until after the skis have reached and passed the falline.  

 

post #112 of 117

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV9SpXbpwyU

 

Yeppers.  This relates to parts of the "freeride" discussion in another recent thread.  To be clear, I think Harb is a ripping skier, leaving aside the us/them stuff, but the movement pattern is clear. On terrain that some people think is steep, but actually is not, he does to a very good job hooking them up up high, and that may account for part of the disconnect, in addition to the social reinforcement dynamic.

post #113 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post

 when you tip your feet you get engagement at the top of the arc.  Not only that you get control at the top of the arc.  There are certainly plenty of ways to get from one set of edges to the other, but foot tipping is the only way that gives you the level of control that you need to get true high c engagement.  Of course Harald's turns seem SLOW.  That's because he is able to engage the ski immediately and get performance out of the high c.  Watching Harald make carved short turns down something steep is as amazing as trying to follow his tracks is demoralizing.  

HH's short turns on the steeps are massively pivoted.  There is usually no high C engagement and speed control at all.  He pivots all the way to the falline, then engages and does his speed control at and below the falline.  He powers his big pivots with anticipation and a blocking pole plant.  That turning technique is clear to see in this video.  Watch the slow mo portions in particular.  They make the  anticipation and big pivot blatantly obvious.   See the body face down the falline and strong pole plant as he transitions between turns.  Watch the skis leave the snow, the tails swing around, and skis quickly twist downhill.  See engagement and snow spray delayed until after the skis have reached and passed the falline.  

 

Hi C engagement from the same video below.  No pivot there.  Watch the feet, watch where the skis hook up.  That's what he strives for in every turn.  Does he achieve it?  Is there such thing as the perfect skier?  But he gets it done most of the time. 

 

Is the start of every turn anticipated?  Yes.  You must hold your counteracting through release in order to cleanly engage the new edges. If you don't that will cause the ski to slide.  Is the pole plant blocking?  Of course.  But do you understand what it is blocking?  A blocking pole plant gets its name because it blocks you from rotating your upper body into the new turn.  On any kind of steeps or off-piste conditions, a blocking pole plant is money because it prevents you from doing the most damaging thing you could possibly do--rotate.  And if you think about it, rotation causes your inside hand to drop and viola you lean in and lose it.  So personally, I think a blocking pole plant is an absolute necessity for the type of terrain Harald is skiing in the posted video.

 

Here's another interesting thing.  If you apply strong counteracting movements to an engaged ski at the same time you increase the tipping, the ski will snap around remarkably fast.  It looks like a pivot because the change in direction is so dramatic.  But when you look at the tracks you see no sign of a skid.  I've skied with Harald enough to know. 

 

Is there some redirect of the skis when they are airborne?  Yeah, I think there are turns where you see that.  But it's minimal and if it is there it is caused by the unwind effect due to his anticipated start (and the bumps themselves will sometimes cause ski to deflect).  Regardless, it isn't a major player in how he's getting the turn done.  If he gets launched a little, the thing to notice is that feet are still tipping; his movements don't vary.  As a result, he's able to settle onto an enaged ski and he's usually still hitting the high c.

 

As for speed control, it was there in spades.  While he chose to ski that run fast, there was no acceleration going on; the speed was constant.  Trust me, he can ski that run as slow as you need to see it.  He can also crank it up, then dial it back without missing a beat. I've seen him do all of that.  And if you start taking away the energy he is generating, you'll see skis glued to the bumps.  The Performance Free Skiing video shows several turns with that level of skiing. 

 

What he is not doing is hitting the edges late.  His knees won't take that anyway, but what you are seeing are the results of increasing the edge angles throughout the turn to finish edge locked.  It's a progressive application of edge, not a set.  Again, tracks don't lie and I've seen enough of his to know.

 

Watch the feet, watch the feet, watch the feet.  I'm telling you, try to follow Harald when he is cranking short turns down something steep.  Try to stay exactly in his tracks.  It is not possible without complete mastery of the high C.  Trust me, I've spent several hours trying to do this.  While I can usually manage to stay behind him, I can't match his tracks.  If you ever get the chance, try it yourself.  It's a telling exercise. 

 

 

   

 Image

post #114 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post

 when you tip your feet you get engagement at the top of the arc.  Not only that you get control at the top of the arc.  There are certainly plenty of ways to get from one set of edges to the other, but foot tipping is the only way that gives you the level of control that you need to get true high c engagement.  Of course Harald's turns seem SLOW.  That's because he is able to engage the ski immediately and get performance out of the high c.  Watching Harald make carved short turns down something steep is as amazing as trying to follow his tracks is demoralizing.  

HH's short turns on the steeps are massively pivoted.  There is usually no high C engagement and speed control at all.  He pivots all the way to the falline, then engages and does his speed control at and below the falline.  He powers his big pivots with anticipation and a blocking pole plant.  That turning technique is clear to see in this video.  Watch the slow mo portions in particular.  They make the  anticipation and big pivot blatantly obvious.   See the body face down the falline and strong pole plant as he transitions between turns.  Watch the skis leave the snow, the tails swing around, and skis quickly twist downhill.  See engagement and snow spray delayed until after the skis have reached and passed the falline.  

 

Hi C engagement from the same video below.  No pivot there.  Watch the feet, watch where the skis hook up.  That's what he strives for in every turn.  Does he achieve it?  Is there such thing as the perfect skier?  But he gets it done most of the time. 

 

 

 

   

 Image

 

In that frame you've captured his pivot has already happened.  You can tell by the snow spray trail above him that his skis have already changed direction by about 90 degrees from the direction they were pointing at the end of the prior turn.  That frame was captured from the slow mo of a massive pivot he did.  

 

In that video almost every turn he does has a pivoted entry.  If as you say, he's striving for non pivoted transitions in every turn, this run is an abysmal failure.  I don't see it that way.  I see it as decent skiing.  I don't care that he's pivoting.  Pivoting is not a taboo technique, it's a useful tool.  This terrain is a good place to use it.

 

 

 

Quote:
Is the start of every turn anticipated?  Yes.  You must hold your counteracting through release in order to cleanly engage the new edges. If you don't that will cause the ski to slide.  

 

 That's not true, it's just the opposite.  Trying to maintain old turn counter through the transition makes it harder to initiate cleanly, with no pivot.  If you remain facing down the falline through the transition, you maintain torque in your core and legs.  When you release the legs will naturally want to unwind, to relieve that torque.  The legs and skis will want to twist back into directional harmony with the downhill facing body.  That's exactly what happens to HH's skis almost every turn.  If you instead let the torque to dissipate by allowing your upper body to unwind in the direction of your across the hill pointing skis as you transition, the skis will not want to twist downhill.

 

 

 

Quote:
Is the pole plant blocking?  Of course.  But do you understand what it is blocking?  A blocking pole plant gets its name because it blocks you from rotating your upper body into the new turn.  On any kind of steeps or off-piste conditions, a blocking pole plant is money because it prevents you from doing the most damaging thing you could possibly do--rotate. 

 

With so much anticipation, he couldn't rotate if he wanted to, because he's already rotated about as far as his body will allow.  Rotation causes a pivot.  Anticipation encourages a pivot too, it's just a more efficient way of pivoting.  The blocking pole plant simply provides apoint of leverage by which to make the pivot more dynamic and managed.   

 

 

 

Quote:
Here's another interesting thing.  If you apply strong counteracting movements to an engaged ski at the same time you increase the tipping, the ski will snap around remarkably fast.  It looks like a pivot because the change in direction is so dramatic.  But when you look at the tracks you see no sign of a skid.  I've skied with Harald enough to know.

 

Next time you follow him down that run, don't try to keep up with him.  Instead, actually stop and look at his tracks.  You will not see arc to arc, there's scant arc to arc in that video clip.  You'll instead see big track breaks with major redirection happening in between.

 

 

 

Quote:
Is there some redirect of the skis when they are airborne?  Yeah, I think there are turns where you see that.  But it's minimal and if it is there it is caused by the unwind effect due to his anticipated start (and the bumps themselves will sometimes cause ski to deflect). 

 

  Not minimal, it's massive.  But yes, you have it right that anticipation is the engine of it.  Bumps are associated with a pivot if anticipation is present as you launch from it into a transition, because as you say the legs/skis want to unwind and join the body in facing downhill.  Launch from a bump with the body facing square to the skis across the hill and the skis don't want to twist downhill anywhere near the amount, if at all.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
 I'm telling you, try to follow Harald when he is cranking short turns down something steep.  Try to stay exactly in his tracks.  It is not possible without complete mastery of the high C.  Trust me, I've spent several hours trying to do this.  While I can usually manage to stay behind him, I can't match his tracks.  If you ever get the chance, try it yourself.  It's a telling exercise. 

 

 

That's the problem you're probably having trying to follow him, Geoffda.  You're trying to engage cleanly, at the top of the high C, and he's pivoting like a big dog, completely skipping high C engagement, like he did in the video.  No way you're going to be able to stay in his tracks like that, you'll turn way too slow, with much more skid and drag.  Next time try pivoting like he is, it will be very revealing how much easier it will be to stay in his tracks and keep up with him.  

 

 

post #115 of 117


 

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Originally Posted by geoffda View Post



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Originally Posted by Rick View Post



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Originally Posted by geoffda View Post

 when you tip your feet you get engagement at the top of the arc.  Not only that you get control at the top of the arc.  There are certainly plenty of ways to get from one set of edges to the other, but foot tipping is the only way that gives you the level of control that you need to get true high c engagement.  Of course Harald's turns seem SLOW.  That's because he is able to engage the ski immediately and get performance out of the high c.  Watching Harald make carved short turns down something steep is as amazing as trying to follow his tracks is demoralizing.  

HH's short turns on the steeps are massively pivoted.  There is usually no high C engagement and speed control at all.  He pivots all the way to the falline, then engages and does his speed control at and below the falline.  He powers his big pivots with anticipation and a blocking pole plant.  That turning technique is clear to see in this video.  Watch the slow mo portions in particular.  They make the  anticipation and big pivot blatantly obvious.   See the body face down the falline and strong pole plant as he transitions between turns.  Watch the skis leave the snow, the tails swing around, and skis quickly twist downhill.  See engagement and snow spray delayed until after the skis have reached and passed the falline.  

 

Hi C engagement from the same video below.  No pivot there.  Watch the feet, watch where the skis hook up.  That's what he strives for in every turn.  Does he achieve it?  Is there such thing as the perfect skier?  But he gets it done most of the time. 

 

Is the start of every turn anticipated?  Yes.  You must hold your counteracting through release in order to cleanly engage the new edges. If you don't that will cause the ski to slide.  Is the pole plant blocking?  Of course.  But do you understand what it is blocking?  A blocking pole plant gets its name because it blocks you from rotating your upper body into the new turn.  On any kind of steeps or off-piste conditions, a blocking pole plant is money because it prevents you from doing the most damaging thing you could possibly do--rotate.  And if you think about it, rotation causes your inside hand to drop and viola you lean in and lose it.  So personally, I think a blocking pole plant is an absolute necessity for the type of terrain Harald is skiing in the posted video.

 

Here's another interesting thing.  If you apply strong counteracting movements to an engaged ski at the same time you increase the tipping, the ski will snap around remarkably fast.  It looks like a pivot because the change in direction is so dramatic.  But when you look at the tracks you see no sign of a skid.  I've skied with Harald enough to know. 

 

Is there some redirect of the skis when they are airborne?  Yeah, I think there are turns where you see that.  But it's minimal and if it is there it is caused by the unwind effect due to his anticipated start (and the bumps themselves will sometimes cause ski to deflect).  Regardless, it isn't a major player in how he's getting the turn done.  If he gets launched a little, the thing to notice is that feet are still tipping; his movements don't vary.  As a result, he's able to settle onto an enaged ski and he's usually still hitting the high c.

 

As for speed control, it was there in spades.  While he chose to ski that run fast, there was no acceleration going on; the speed was constant.  Trust me, he can ski that run as slow as you need to see it.  He can also crank it up, then dial it back without missing a beat. I've seen him do all of that.  And if you start taking away the energy he is generating, you'll see skis glued to the bumps.  The Performance Free Skiing video shows several turns with that level of skiing. 

 

What he is not doing is hitting the edges late.  His knees won't take that anyway, but what you are seeing are the results of increasing the edge angles throughout the turn to finish edge locked.  It's a progressive application of edge, not a set.  Again, tracks don't lie and I've seen enough of his to know.

 

Watch the feet, watch the feet, watch the feet.  I'm telling you, try to follow Harald when he is cranking short turns down something steep.  Try to stay exactly in his tracks.  It is not possible without complete mastery of the high C.  Trust me, I've spent several hours trying to do this.  While I can usually manage to stay behind him, I can't match his tracks.  If you ever get the chance, try it yourself.  It's a telling exercise. 

 

 

   

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I think you need to know Rick's definition of pivot. My guess is that his definition is not the same as yours.  He has made similar remark in the past. Look up Holiday and Eric D.'s video post. They said there was no pivot in their skiing but Rick said they have "massive pivot". They are expert skiers, and instructors. Is it possible that they do not know what they were doing?

post #116 of 117
Thread Starter 

Rick, very good posting. Seems there are more myths to be busted than the QCT. In good spirit though, as so far. The hedding in this thread is a bit  wink.gif so I hope discussions and "claims" will not bee taken too seriously.

 

It is true that carving cleanly the high C is the sectret to successfull carving. At the same time it should be notissed that for successful short turns the high C should be brushed, not edge locked carved. Because systems like SVMM and PMTS both use the word carving when brushing the high C people get confused and dont realize what Rick pointed out in his last posting. That our skis pivot as they come off their old edges and square up. Note that anticipation is a non-existent word in PMTS BTW.

 

Also, the fact that its impossible for geoffda to follow HHs tracks doesent really tell us anything new about HHs skiing because we already know he is an expert skier.

post #117 of 117

There is quite a lot of mass in the legs and feet.  Ideally you would want to "rotate" that mass just enough so that the legs keep up with the skis tipping-induced rotation.

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