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Mythbusting the QCT (short turn MA) - Page 2  

post #31 of 117

I don't get the "C" (for "Carving") part of these videos. I don't see a lot of carving going on, and the feet are so close together that the pressure distribution isn't conducive to the outside ski experiencing the majority of the pressure in order to arc well.

 

The blocking pole plant is certainly creating a fulcrum around which the body swings the legs to create a tighter turn. The bobble in the first video shows the sideways push of the feet to make that swing out and around work.

 

This is not to say that this is "bad" or "wrong" skiing, but it certainly isn't skiing that is primarily using the shape of the ski to manage the shape of the turn. It also isn't the approach that I prefer to use to tighten the turn, create short radius (mostly) carved turns, or shape those turns.

 

I would go so far as to suggest that letting the feet drift apart about a ski-boot-width would help get more arc and less push, if you'd like.

 

...but it really does look like a wedeln.

 

fa1406c9_Ott+Wedeln.gif

post #32 of 117
Thread Starter 

Older Than Dirt, if the bumps are very big and the slope very steep then I ski them one at the time. The problem is really if they are very close to each other. In such cases the "rounded" zipper line might be the best way to go. Note that the QCT offers some speed controll but its very tiring. The tempo is high. On the other hand your muscles get used to it the more you ski so thats why its important to parctise. And the only thing you need to do is to make one run a day. After a while you will find out that its not only one run. And its not only a tiring booring drill. Its a lot of fun as well. At easter I host an annual short turn competition for family and friends. We ski down the slope and make as many turns as we can without stopping. And we count them ourselves and then compare at the end of the slope. Its not a big slope but even a 100 turns kind of wears you out.

post #33 of 117
Thread Starter 

ssh - you are perfectly right. The C that stands for Carving isnt really Carving the way I define it as well. But I have let go of that limitation since it really does not matter. Or lets say its out of my hands and I just have to adapt in this case. Here is what carving in the bumps really looks like:

 

 

And yes. Its kind of like the wedeln. I have an old wedeln clip of me as well but cannot find it right now. However, there is a difference. The QCT are more rounded. Or lets say that the way I used to do it and the way I do it now is different. Today I put more effort in making the turn rounder. Its not allways possible to see from the videos but it sure feels different.

 

The stance width is a practical thing. In the bumps its easier to keep your feet together than apart. It has nothing to do with outside ski pressure. Its also possible to do in a narrow stance. IMO offcourse.

post #34 of 117

Yes, those GS-length turns are move carved, but, as we've demonstrated multiple times, turn length and shape can be altered without severely reducing the carved nature of a carved turn.

 

There are force dynamics that occur with your feet closer than hips-width apart that reduce your ability to use the inside edges, and it is the inside edges that we use for carving turns. In these turns, you are using more of the outside edge of the inside ski to shape your turn as a result of the pressure distribution between your skis based on the positioning of your feet more closely together than your natural stance.

 

I used to think that "it's easier to keep your feet together" in bumps, but now I don't. It's actually easier to maintain a natural stance in all of our skiing, but it certainly requires breaking very old habits for some of us!

 

I've just been watching a series of videos on the Images and Concepts and Brilliant Skiing DVDs and noticing the dramatic differences between their short turns and these "QCT"s. It occurs to me that there are more efficient ways to get to the outcome you are seeking than the movements you're making in these turns. Not that you have to change anything, of course, but just making sure that you see the implications of the stance and movements...

post #35 of 117
Thread Starter 

The SL skis I used for the video clip arced at that radius under those circumstances. They were not GS turns. Simply carved turns with SL skis. The stance witdth needs to be very narrow in skiing like that. Too much variations in the terrain for a wider stance. Also in bumps a closer stance is better since there is less room. In the FIS rule book its mentioned that the skis should be kept at same distance apart the whole time. If you dont you get points knocked off. So its easier to keep them close all the time. Less variation. Not that it matter for recreational skiers offcourse. Just saying. Im not claiming that Im doing the optimum kind of turns. Just fun to do short turns. Call them what you want. Im sure the DVD has much better skiing than I can possible crank out.

post #36 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

Yes, those GS-length turns are move carved, but, as we've demonstrated multiple times, turn length and shape can be altered without severely reducing the carved nature of a carved turn.

 

There are force dynamics that occur with your feet closer than hips-width apart that reduce your ability to use the inside edges, and it is the inside edges that we use for carving turns. In these turns, you are using more of the outside edge of the inside ski to shape your turn as a result of the pressure distribution between your skis based on the positioning of your feet more closely together than your natural stance.

 

I used to think that "it's easier to keep your feet together" in bumps, but now I don't. It's actually easier to maintain a natural stance in all of our skiing, but it certainly requires breaking very old habits for some of us!

 

I've just been watching a series of videos on the Images and Concepts and Brilliant Skiing DVDs and noticing the dramatic differences between their short turns and these "QCT"s. It occurs to me that there are more efficient ways to get to the outcome you are seeking than the movements you're making in these turns. Not that you have to change anything, of course, but just making sure that you see the implications of the stance and movements...



Ya, in this situation I really think you're right Steve. You've got to have a little more separation in the feet-boots-skis and thinking about maybe having the knees closer using angulation to help get on the inside edge more. Yes? No?

post #37 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

I don't get the "C" (for "Carving") part of these videos. I don't see a lot of carving going on, and the feet are so close together that the pressure distribution isn't conducive to the outside ski experiencing the majority of the pressure in order to arc well.

 

The blocking pole plant is certainly creating a fulcrum around which the body swings the legs to create a tighter turn. The bobble in the first video shows the sideways push of the feet to make that swing out and around work.

 

This is not to say that this is "bad" or "wrong" skiing, but it certainly isn't skiing that is primarily using the shape of the ski to manage the shape of the turn. It also isn't the approach that I prefer to use to tighten the turn, create short radius (mostly) carved turns, or shape those turns.

 

I would go so far as to suggest that letting the feet drift apart about a ski-boot-width would help get more arc and less push, if you'd like.

 

...but it really does look like a wedeln.

 

fa1406c9_Ott+Wedeln.gif



Yeah, we are using the broad definition of "carve" here.  While you were away, there was a lengthy thread on these turns, where it was well pointed out that they were not "carved" as some people define the term. 

 

I also agree there are other ways to skin a cat, from linked hard edge set braking to PMTS brushed carves, but I think it would be good to have this one down too, even though it looks like too much exercise for my lazy bones.wink.gif

post #38 of 117

Actually, if done correctly, they are very easy and not tireing. Good practice for moguls indeed.

 

Doing it HH's way is what i'd call correct.

post #39 of 117

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

The SL skis I used for the video clip arced at that radius under those circumstances. They were not GS turns. Simply carved turns with SL skis. The stance witdth needs to be very narrow in skiing like that. Too much variations in the terrain for a wider stance. Also in bumps a closer stance is better since there is less room. In the FIS rule book its mentioned that the skis should be kept at same distance apart the whole time. If you dont you get points knocked off. So its easier to keep them close all the time. Less variation. Not that it matter for recreational skiers offcourse. Just saying. Im not claiming that Im doing the optimum kind of turns. Just fun to do short turns. Call them what you want. Im sure the DVD has much better skiing than I can possible crank out.


tdk6, you think the turns in post #33 are not GS turns? I beg to differ! Those are very definitely GS-length turns. If you're talking about your "QCT" turns, I agree. Those are short turns, but they are not carved SL turns, either. The goal is to keep the feet the same distance apart, but they are not locked and pushed together:

 

84081720.jpg

 

Those skis are much thinner than the ones we typically ski, meaning that it's possible to get independent leg/feet activity even with the feet very closely together. The point is a functional one: being able to use that inside edge of the outside ski to manage the path of the ski. Modern competitive mogul skis are also much straighter than anything that skiers use on the piste/slopes today, so there are some differences in both intent and outcomes as a result. If you think about how straight the sidecut on competitive mogul skis (about 20m for the Hart F17 according to PhysicsMans calculator), "carving" isn't going to result in "quick" turns. You'll get more function out of those skis if you allow them to separate a bit... That's all I'm sayin'...

post #40 of 117

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

Yes, those GS-length turns are move carved, but, as we've demonstrated multiple times, turn length and shape can be altered without severely reducing the carved nature of a carved turn.

 

There are force dynamics that occur with your feet closer than hips-width apart that reduce your ability to use the inside edges, and it is the inside edges that we use for carving turns. In these turns, you are using more of the outside edge of the inside ski to shape your turn as a result of the pressure distribution between your skis based on the positioning of your feet more closely together than your natural stance.

 

I used to think that "it's easier to keep your feet together" in bumps, but now I don't. It's actually easier to maintain a natural stance in all of our skiing, but it certainly requires breaking very old habits for some of us!

 

I've just been watching a series of videos on the Images and Concepts and Brilliant Skiing DVDs and noticing the dramatic differences between their short turns and these "QCT"s. It occurs to me that there are more efficient ways to get to the outcome you are seeking than the movements you're making in these turns. Not that you have to change anything, of course, but just making sure that you see the implications of the stance and movements...


Ya, in this situation I really think you're right Steve. You've got to have a little more separation in the feet-boots-skis and thinking about maybe having the knees closer using angulation to help get on the inside edge more. Yes? No?

 

 

Seems right to me, Lars, although I do still try to keep my lower legs pretty much parallel. I let that inside knee move more into the turn instead of having my knees move towards each other and "A-frame". I'm thinking mostly about the force vector from the center of mass through the inside edge of the outside ski. You want to avoid trying to compromise that force by moving that edge too far under your CoM, especially in shorter turns.

post #41 of 117

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

I don't get the "C" (for "Carving") part of these videos. I don't see a lot of carving going on, and the feet are so close together that the pressure distribution isn't conducive to the outside ski experiencing the majority of the pressure in order to arc well.

 

The blocking pole plant is certainly creating a fulcrum around which the body swings the legs to create a tighter turn. The bobble in the first video shows the sideways push of the feet to make that swing out and around work.

 

This is not to say that this is "bad" or "wrong" skiing, but it certainly isn't skiing that is primarily using the shape of the ski to manage the shape of the turn. It also isn't the approach that I prefer to use to tighten the turn, create short radius (mostly) carved turns, or shape those turns.

 

I would go so far as to suggest that letting the feet drift apart about a ski-boot-width would help get more arc and less push, if you'd like.

 

...but it really does look like a wedeln.

 

fa1406c9_Ott+Wedeln.gif



Yeah, we are using the broad definition of "carve" here.  While you were away, there was a lengthy thread on these turns, where it was well pointed out that they were not "carved" as some people define the term. 

 

I also agree there are other ways to skin a cat, from linked hard edge set braking to PMTS brushed carves, but I think it would be good to have this one down too, even though it looks like too much exercise for my lazy bones.wink.gif


Please forgive my ignorance on this, Ghost. Meanings of words are all I have to go on, so I'm working to understand the point of these turns. Are they an exercise? If so, I'm trying to understand what some of the dynamics are and express my concerns that they may cause compensations. I guess one could argue that any movements on snow will teach us something, but I do think that we have to be mindful that many can teach us to do things that may not be helpful. That's how I'm seeing this one at the moment.

post #42 of 117

They are just one way to ski moguls.  See here  http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/89364/nail-s-qct-s-quick-carved-turns

 

When I first encountered them in that thread, my opinion was meh, I can't see it being worthwhile.  Mind you I suck at moguls, but coming around to using something like the brushed carve which is based on the same tipping movements as a carved (as in edge locked tip to tail) turn, my mogul skiing does suck at a slightly higher level.  Now I'm thinking, "Variety is the spice of life, so why not try this variation."

post #43 of 117

Using a brushed carve in moguls definitely make sense to me (that's my typical turn type in bumps), but I'm not seeing how the turns in the OP video will help with that.

post #44 of 117

 

Quote:
ssh wrote:
 
I've just been watching a series of videos on the Images and Concepts and Brilliant Skiing DVDs and noticing the dramatic differences between their short turns and these "QCT"s.

 

Just guessing, because I've not seen the videos you refer to (link would help), I'd say the standout/defining difference would be "turn radius" which directly relates to the speed it takes to complete a turn, the deflection from a true fall line and the distance required to complete/finish the turn in order to gain the speed controlling advantages.  How's my guess?

 

 

Quote:
ssh wrote: 
 
It occurs to me that there are more efficient ways to get to the outcome you are seeking than the movements you're making in these turns. Not that you have to change anything, of course, but just making sure that you see the implications of the stance and movements...

 

Stance, I'm assuming the amount of separation between the feet, this separataion can vary from turn to turn and can even vary and change during the same turn.  It is often advantageous to initiate a turn with more separation and converge the feet/skis into the turn finish to focus energy build up.  I don't suggest "locking" the feet together at any point of the turn, but generally when skiing natural terrain, closer is better than wider.

 

Exactly what movements are you referring to that could help TDK6 improve the roundness of his turn, the speed he can complete a turn in, and the subtle edge pressure timing required to cleanly link these turns?  I'm sure these specific movement improvements could help a lot of other readers here also.  Movements is a more difficult term to generalize as it can refer to anything from the desired degree of ankle roll at the turn initiation,  the amount of retraction of the downhill ski at transition and everything in between that is needed to link turns as quickly and cleanly as TDK6's turns at the :24 sec mark in video 2.  Are you serious that you can improve the speed and fluidity of these 5 turns by prescribing better/improved movements?   If you can, supporting video demonstrating quicker,cleaner and rounder turns that utilize your improved movements/timing would be very enlightening and a high mark for skiers to emulate.  Don't get me wrong here, I don't think TDK6's QCT's are the "best" I've ever seen, but those turns starting at the :24 sec mark are pretty damn clean and solid IMO.

 

I'm going to post a couple other QCT videos we've discussed in the past, including mine which are certainly not the "best" QCT's ever, but I'm not embarrassed to claim them mine either.  I think what sets these QCT's apart from other short turn examples on the internet is the extremely tight radius, speed and roundness of the completed turn, all characteristic of turns needed to ski and hold the technical line.

 

 

Nice QCT's @ 1:00 mark.

 

post #45 of 117

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

Quote:
ssh wrote:
 
I've just been watching a series of videos on the Images and Concepts and Brilliant Skiing DVDs and noticing the dramatic differences between their short turns and these "QCT"s.

 

Just guessing, because I've not seen the videos you refer to (link would help), I'd say the standout/defining difference would be "turn radius" which directly relates to the speed it takes to complete a turn, the deflection from a true fall line and the distance required to complete/finish the turn in order to gain the speed controlling advantages.  How's my guess?


The Images and Concepts DVD is here, but there isn't much on YouTube showing the short turns. Here's the intro video:

 

 

The primary distinction is the use of the skis' edges to shape the turn instead of pushing them out and twisting them.

 

I did make an effort to describe some movements and outcomes that I thought could be used to improve these like to separate the feet so you can get more tipping, use tipping as the force onto the inside edge of the outside ski and get more tipping (like the other videos you used as examples do).

 

I have no idea when I might have another opportunity to shoot video of myself; it's pretty rare that I ski at a time and in a way that lets me get some video done, but if I get the chance I'll give it a shot.

post #46 of 117

 

Quote:
ssh wrote:
 

I did make an effort to describe some movements and outcomes that I thought could be used to improve these like to separate the feet so you can get more tipping, use tipping as the force onto the inside edge of the outside ski and get more tipping (like the other videos you used as examples do).

 

I have no idea when I might have another opportunity to shoot video of myself; it's pretty rare that I ski at a time and in a way that lets me get some video done, but if I get the chance I'll give it a shot.

 

I'm all for tipping the skis onto edge, actually the earlier the better.  This is why we try to generate angulation and getting the feet out laterally away from the body, this has to be done extremely quickly when making QCT's though. 

 

It would be great to see your own QCT and I understand how difficult it can be to get something worth posting.  I wasn't actually asking you to provide personal video, just any video utilizing the improved movements you suggest. 

 

What did you think of the QCT's in the videos I posted?  Everyone's QCT's look different, but they all share similar characteristics.   I've got to get some new video of my QCT on the Volkl SL 168's  I'm using this season, in the video I posted, I was on Dynastar GS 183's and skiing them for the first time.

post #47 of 117

 

Quote:
ssh wrote:
 
The primary distinction is the use of the skis' edges to shape the turn instead of pushing them out and twisting them.

 

You can't "shape" a turn tighter than the skis sidecut radius by simply tipping them on edge and riding them, the skier has to wind up or tighten the radius by rotary movments/steering in combination with timed extension and flexion of the ankles/kness/hips, then throw in some well timed fore/aft movements to edge/ski pressuring and you are making QCT's.

post #48 of 117

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

Quote:
ssh wrote:
 

I did make an effort to describe some movements and outcomes that I thought could be used to improve these like to separate the feet so you can get more tipping, use tipping as the force onto the inside edge of the outside ski and get more tipping (like the other videos you used as examples do).

 

I have no idea when I might have another opportunity to shoot video of myself; it's pretty rare that I ski at a time and in a way that lets me get some video done, but if I get the chance I'll give it a shot.

 

I'm all for tipping the skis onto edge, actually the earlier the better.  This is why we try to generate angulation and getting the feet out laterally away from the body, this has to be done extremely quickly when making QCT's though. 

 

It would be great to see your own QCT and I understand how difficult it can be to get something worth posting.  I wasn't actually asking you to provide personal video, just any video utilizing the improved movements you suggest. 

 

What did you think of the QCT's in the videos I posted?  Everyone's QCT's look different, but they all share similar characteristics.   I've got to get some new video of my QCT on the Volkl SL 168's  I'm using this season, in the video I posted, I was on Dynastar GS 183's and skiing them for the first time.


I was referring to the two videos you posted when I wrote that I really liked the movements I saw. Much more tipping, tipping first, then steering, shaping while on edge, using the skis instead of pushing them around, keeping the skis moving independently (and functionally separated)... Nice skiing... icon14.gif

 

That said, these characteristics seem to me to be effective approaches to skiing, and very much in keeping with what the best skiers do on every turn... am I missing something? Obviously, the DIRT changes to achieve the result that you're seeking with these tighter turns, but I don't see dramatically different movement patterns.

post #49 of 117

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

Quote:
ssh wrote:
 
The primary distinction is the use of the skis' edges to shape the turn instead of pushing them out and twisting them.

 

You can't "shape" a turn tighter than the skis sidecut radius by simply tipping them on edge and riding them, the skier has to wind up or tighten the radius by rotary movments/steering in combination with timed extension and flexion of the ankles/kness/hips, then throw in some well timed fore/aft movements to edge/ski pressuring and you are making QCT's.


Absolutely true! But, pushing the skis out to the side isn't the kind of rotary movements/steering that are effective and the movements I was suggesting could be improved.

post #50 of 117
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

Actually, if done correctly, they are very easy and not tireing. Good practice for moguls indeed.

 

Doing it HH's way is what i'd call correct.


Yes, that would be the right way to do them. The one and two footed relese drills are the basis for good short turns.
 

post #51 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

The SL skis I used for the video clip arced at that radius under those circumstances. They were not GS turns. Simply carved turns with SL skis. The stance witdth needs to be very narrow in skiing like that. Too much variations in the terrain for a wider stance. Also in bumps a closer stance is better since there is less room. In the FIS rule book its mentioned that the skis should be kept at same distance apart the whole time. If you dont you get points knocked off. So its easier to keep them close all the time. Less variation. Not that it matter for recreational skiers offcourse. Just saying. Im not claiming that Im doing the optimum kind of turns. Just fun to do short turns. Call them what you want. Im sure the DVD has much better skiing than I can possible crank out.


tdk6, you think the turns in post #33 are not GS turns? I beg to differ! Those are very definitely GS-length turns. If you're talking about your "QCT" turns, I agree. Those are short turns, but they are not carved SL turns, either. The goal is to keep the feet the same distance apart, but they are not locked and pushed together:

 

84081720.jpg

 

Those skis are much thinner than the ones we typically ski, meaning that it's possible to get independent leg/feet activity even with the feet very closely together. The point is a functional one: being able to use that inside edge of the outside ski to manage the path of the ski. Modern competitive mogul skis are also much straighter than anything that skiers use on the piste/slopes today, so there are some differences in both intent and outcomes as a result. If you think about how straight the sidecut on competitive mogul skis (about 20m for the Hart F17 according to PhysicsMans calculator), "carving" isn't going to result in "quick" turns. You'll get more function out of those skis if you allow them to separate a bit... That's all I'm sayin'...


I dont really understand. The skis I used were r=12m SL race department skis. Sure you can call them GS turns if you want but if I had been using similair r=27m GS skis the turn arcs would have been waaaaay bigger. But this is behind the point. I was just making a demo of how to carve clean RR-trax in a mogul field. This was before I ever heared of QTCs and mogul carving technique. For the people that havent tried this I might point out that you cannot tip a lot into the turn because your sideways gripp is on and off.

 

 The stance width can be more open. Its an individual thing. I have no problem with that. On my next video session I will try to do some in a wider stance. I guess Im going back to my roots with the close stance. I also feel that I can turn much quicker when in a close stance. If we go to nitpicking the feet should not open up during the turn. Stemming out the downhill ski at the end of a turn was a flaw back in the good old days and I guess it can still be considerd one. Just for the record, here is me brushing turns in a wider stance.

 

 

Just as a reference. Here Im carving rr-tracks in a close stance. This video goes way back, 2003 or something like that. Note how elegantly I slip out of the edge locked carve at the very end when I stop.

 

 

Nail is correct. You cannot passively be depending on your skis side cut and edge to turn you when performing short turns like in a clean carved turn like in the clip here above. You need to crank those skis arround. Or let them gently swing arround due to unwiding. For sure its a combination of many things but its deffinetly a muscle action. And in this case it does not matter much if the skis have a radius of 12 or 21. I can easily do QCT on 27+ radius GS skis. Regarding the pressure distribution between the feet. Im all for outside ski pressure but Im also a true spokesman for a more two footed stance when called for. The guy in the photo has his feet "glued" together. But if you taka a photo 1/1000 of a second and make any conclusions the skier is in an open stace due to slight vertical separation you might be side tracked.

 

 

post #52 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

Quote:
ssh wrote:
 
The primary distinction is the use of the skis' edges to shape the turn instead of pushing them out and twisting them.

 

You can't "shape" a turn tighter than the skis sidecut radius by simply tipping them on edge and riding them, the skier has to wind up or tighten the radius by rotary movments/steering in combination with timed extension and flexion of the ankles/kness/hips, then throw in some well timed fore/aft movements to edge/ski pressuring and you are making QCT's.


Absolutely true! But, pushing the skis out to the side isn't the kind of rotary movements/steering that are effective and the movements I was suggesting could be improved.



From the front it might look like pushing out to the side. Its not easy to see the shaping of the turn early on. Especially when dooing very quick turns.

post #53 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

Exactly what movements are you referring to that could help TDK6 improve the roundness of his turn, the speed he can complete a turn in, and the subtle edge pressure timing required to cleanly link these turns?  I'm sure these specific movement improvements could help a lot of other readers here also.  Movements is a more difficult term to generalize as it can refer to anything from the desired degree of ankle roll at the turn initiation,  the amount of retraction of the downhill ski at transition and everything in between that is needed to link turns as quickly and cleanly as TDK6's turns at the :24 sec mark in video 2.  Are you serious that you can improve the speed and fluidity of these 5 turns by prescribing better/improved movements?   If you can, supporting video demonstrating quicker,cleaner and rounder turns that utilize your improved movements/timing would be very enlightening and a high mark for skiers to emulate.  Don't get me wrong here, I don't think TDK6's QCT's are the "best" I've ever seen, but those turns starting at the :24 sec mark are pretty damn clean and solid IMO.

 

 

Thanks Nail smile.gif. In the first clip I was kind of just trying to make controlled short turns and really tring to round off the turns. In the second clip I was trying to ripp!

post #54 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

I'm going to post a couple other QCT videos we've discussed in the past, including mine which are certainly not the "best" QCT's ever, but I'm not embarrassed to claim them mine either.  I think what sets these QCT's apart from other short turn examples on the internet is the extremely tight radius, speed and roundness of the completed turn, all characteristic of turns needed to ski and hold the technical line.

 

 

 


Is your weight on your heels? It looks like you are a little aft.

post #55 of 117

KIS what I see is the same movements being made in the video's.  Feathered carved turns but done faster and quicker than those done in SSH's video.

 

Ski with more energy and downhill ski like the kids say.  The 1st three turns more pressure is applied then when the ski is loaded into reverse camber the skis will build up the pressure with speed and tipping with more pressure applied to the downhill ski at the end or beginning of the new turn to get maxi um  float into the next turn.. What SVMM does is make movements to allow this to happen

 

To me a carve is when the ski tracks in the same arc as the tip and tail follow the same path. It is a SL turn but more of when the SL skier is in a flush. More down the fall line. Feet apart is not the ultimate when making QCT...... The closer the feet the quicker the turns can be. Yes skier will feather or float the top part of the turn. This is called getting off the edges. This is how racers go faster then the other guy by getting off there edges and floating or projecting the COM downhill.

post #56 of 117

Yes the skier is ending the turn at the aft position at this point the skier moves up and forward into the new turn. Then with the pole flick skiers weight is brought back to the fore position for the next turn using the energy created to propel the skier back down the run from the tail to the tip.

post #57 of 117

The kids look like they are more forward, and in balance, hence quicker imo.

post #58 of 117

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I dont really understand. The skis I used were r=12m SL race department skis. Sure you can call them GS turns if you want but if I had been using similair r=27m GS skis the turn arcs would have been waaaaay bigger. But this is behind the point. I was just making a demo of how to carve clean RR-trax in a mogul field. This was before I ever heared of QTCs and mogul carving technique. For the people that havent tried this I might point out that you cannot tip a lot into the turn because your sideways gripp is on and off.

 

 The stance width can be more open. Its an individual thing. I have no problem with that. On my next video session I will try to do some in a wider stance. I guess Im going back to my roots with the close stance. I also feel that I can turn much quicker when in a close stance. If we go to nitpicking the feet should not open up during the turn. Stemming out the downhill ski at the end of a turn was a flaw back in the good old days and I guess it can still be considerd one. Just for the record, here is me brushing turns in a wider stance.

 

 

Just as a reference. Here Im carving rr-tracks in a close stance. This video goes way back, 2003 or something like that. Note how elegantly I slip out of the edge locked carve at the very end when I stop.

 

Nail is correct. You cannot passively be depending on your skis side cut and edge to turn you when performing short turns like in a clean carved turn like in the clip here above. You need to crank those skis arround. Or let them gently swing arround due to unwiding. For sure its a combination of many things but its deffinetly a muscle action. And in this case it does not matter much if the skis have a radius of 12 or 21. I can easily do QCT on 27+ radius GS skis. Regarding the pressure distribution between the feet. Im all for outside ski pressure but Im also a true spokesman for a more two footed stance when called for. The guy in the photo has his feet "glued" together. But if you taka a photo 1/1000 of a second and make any conclusions the skier is in an open stace due to slight vertical separation you might be side tracked.


Those arced turns in the bumps were on 12m SL skis? Ok, count me as shocked by the length of the turns. I often demonstrate carving on bumps in a similar way on my 15m or 17m Nordicas, and make significantly shorter turns than those using higher edge angles, so I'm just very unclear of your intent there versus mine.

 

I like those turns with your feet more apart! Well done! The forces are helping you much more than in the other stance. I'm not talking about preferences, but rather about what happens to the force vectors. With your feet together, the inside edges of  your skis are approximately under the centerline of your body and your knees are together, making independent flexing much more difficult. The inside leg has a more difficult time collapsing as a result of the knees being so close together, and the force vector pushes more of the pressure towards the center and outside of the outside ski instead of towards the inside edges. All of this means that it is more difficult to apply that force to the inside edge of the outside ski when your feet are closer together.

 

Of course, anyone can ski however they want, but I find it helpful to understand the implications of various positions and movements.

 

I also disagree about the implications of sidecut on turn shape and the movements and muscular support you have to apply to shorten your turns with different sidecuts. The extent to which the sidecut doesn't matter is the extent to which you're not using the sidecut (and therefore some element of "carving") to make the turns.

post #59 of 117

 

Quote:
CarlR wrote:

Is your weight on your heels? It looks like you are a little aft.

 

I'll move my ski pressure focus from fore to aft into the turn finish, sort of a "scooping" movement to generate and focus energy at the bottom of the turn.  As I drive my feet forward (close the ankles, extend the knees and close the hips), I can generate a powerful and  focused edge set simultaneous with a striking a firm pole flick which marks the end of the turn and beginning of the next turn.

 

Since I've just driven my feet slightly forward to move my pressure aft, I can now pull my feet back the same distance to smoothly release my edges and initiate the new turn.  I will now close/flex my knees to release by pulling my feet back, open and roll my ankles to regain shovel pressure and engage my edges early in the high C and open/extend my hips which will project my COM downhill and help to get early edge pressure during the float phase following tran

 

Quote:
ssh wrote:
 
1000x500px-LL-46db5d71_84081720.jpg
 
Those skis are much thinner than the ones we typically ski, meaning that it's possible to get independent leg/feet activity even with the feet very closely together. The point is a functional one: being able to use that inside edge of the outside ski to manage the path of the ski.

 

That's a terrible picture to introduce to support your point ssh, the turn in the photo is a 100% pivot/slip/skid, the tips will never leave the fall line.   Notice the contorted body position with the femurs pointing left and the ankles pointed right, doesn't that seem odd to you?  The competitor is going to slam laterally into the mogul side wall below, bounce and pivot again.   Proof, without even seeing the video, look at where the tails are in the picture.  The tips of the skis were never in that location, tails follow the tips in a carve turn, it's a characteristic of a carved turn.  Most WC mogul competitors use a very proficient pivot/slip/skid to navigate the course.  Here's a great video comparing the pivot/slip (left skier) and a carved turn (right skier) in a competition course.  The skier on the left is Cota, he just placed 3rd a couple weeks ago in Placid I think, using the same pivot/slip tech.  It's a fast and stable technique to navigate a perfect zipperline, but doesn't represent an advanced skiing technique IMO.

 

 

 

post #60 of 117

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post
 
Quote:
ssh wrote:
 
1000x500px-LL-46db5d71_84081720.jpg
 
Those skis are much thinner than the ones we typically ski, meaning that it's possible to get independent leg/feet activity even with the feet very closely together. The point is a functional one: being able to use that inside edge of the outside ski to manage the path of the ski.

 

That's a terrible picture to introduce to support your point ssh, the turn in the photo is a 100% pivot/slip/skid, the tips will never leave the fall line.   Notice the contorted body position with the femurs pointing left and the ankles pointed right, doesn't that seem odd to you?  The competitor is going to slam laterally into the mogul side wall below, bounce and pivot again.   Proof, without even seeing the video, look at where the tails are in the picture.  The tips of the skis were never in that location, tails follow the tips in a carve turn, it's a characteristic of a carved turn.  Most WC mogul competitors use a very proficient pivot/slip/skid to navigate the course.  Here's a great video comparing the pivot/slip (left skier) and a carved turn (right skier) in a competition course.  The skier on the left is Cota, he just placed 3rd a couple weeks ago in Placid I think, using the same pivot/slip tech.  It's a fast and stable technique to navigate a perfect zipperline, but doesn't represent an advanced skiing technique IMO.

 

 


You're seeing a lot in that one picture, Nailbender, and a lot with which I disagree. In that photo, the skis are currently both in the air, with the inside edge of the new outside ski beginning to reconnect with the snow as the first part of either ski to do so. Exactly what has happened before and what will happen next is pure conjecture on the part of anyone examining the photo. I used it only to show the separation of the inside edges of competitive skis, and believe that it shows that well. The position of competitive mogul skiers helps get the force vectors to align over the inside edges when necessary, but they are largely contrived for competition.

 

The "contorted" body position is typical of competitive bump skiing due to the requirements of keeping the knees locked for good subjective scoring by the judges (which I find to be ludicrous, but, like figure skating, there's a personal preference element that makes the scoring subjective). Ironically, "carving" is also a key part of scoring, so according to the judges, the technique in your video must be carved or he'd be penalized:

 

 

Quote from the FIS:

Turns:

Five judges independently evaluate the competitor’s turns based on the following points of criteria:

Fall Line: Skiing in the fall line is considered the shortest way from the start to the finish. To achieve the maximum points for fall line, the competitor should stay in the selected fall line out of the start gate.

Carving: All turns should be initiated by carving. Carving means efficient use of edging to control speed in and out of the turn throughout the whole run. Carving is the result of correctly-timed weight shifting.

Absorption and Extension: The skier should follow the shape of the mogul through absorption from the start until the top of the mogul. Extension starts right after the top of the mogul and follows the shape of the mogul. Pressure between skis and snow should remain the same during absorption and extension, absorbing as the skier moves up and extending as the skier moves down. Additionally, the skier should aggressively utilize the moguls to assist initiation of turns, rather than waiting for the moguls.

Upper Body: The head should remain still, facing downhill. The chest should also stay straight and natural. Hands stay in front of the body in a natural position.

Each judge may give a maximum score of 5.0. The high and low scores are discarded and the three remaining scores are added together to total a maximum of 15.0 points.

This is one of the many reason I find discussion of competitive mogul skiing to be largely immaterial to recreational mogul skiers. We can certainly learn from their technique, but they use different equipment seeking a different outcome on different bumps than we will ever encounter outside a competitive arena.

 

So, by all means learn to carve turns, steer tighter turns while largely using the sidecut of the ski to manage the turn shape, and how to make them as tight as you possibly can. But, let's recognize what we're using and when. As I mentioned above, if the difference between sidecut radius is immaterial to the shaping of a turn, then the sidecut is a minor (at best) part of what is used to create the turn.

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