Does the new ski technology reduce the need for lessons? - Page 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrizzledVeteran 

They were questions, Josh.

 

Not reflections of a sore hindquarter.

 

You're projecting.

 

The e-skiers on TGR are just that.  I am not saying TGR lacks highly skilled skiers.  I am saying the bulk of posters at TGR are pretenders, despite the presence of a few skilled people.  That's the nature of all internet discussion... a few knowledgeable experienced people and a throng of hangers-on who seek greatness by affiliation, or seek the wisdom of the sages... or perhaps, both.

 

I've skied Stowe.  Don't assume I haven't.  I ski tight trees at speed.  Don't assume I can't.  Funny thing is, I do it all without funshapes.

 

Put your penis back in your pants.  I don't need to see it.

 

Do you remember when you were a weekend warrior gaper, and someone told you to move west to live as a skier, not as a poseur?  Yeah, you can thank me now, you project-a-problem "expert."

 

(that last statement is not a put-down, but a reminder to not assume so much about the person you're talking to)

 

I don't understand why my questions were heard/read as a challenge to your "expert" status.  I'm asking you to define very generalized terms in a way that makes sense and proves your several points about skis not making things easier for the average weekend warrior.

 

I'm asking you to discern the difference between

 

easier = funner

 

and

 

easier = now an expert

 

If someone rides an 8" travel DH bike on a moderately rocky trail and is able to go 15 mph where previously on a fully-rigid bike that person couldn't ride the trail, is he now an "expert" rider?  Or is he just able to ride a trail he couldn't ride before?

 

Isn't "expert" a label relating to skill, and not a designation of terrain negotiated, or terrain survived?

 

When you stop feeling defensive and needing to justify your status as an "expert," I'd encourage you to consider that question of what "expert" really means.

sorry I would have probably posted differently if I realized who you were.

expert is a skill set, but today was a day at stowe that un fun shape skis were damn near impossible in the woods for anyone. Snow was super heavy and was chopped a pair of S7s killed it for me, my "the ones" met their match.  My point is people should embrace new things before discounting them, if you dont like them you dont like them.

whoa! now that's interesting (insert icon with raised eyebrows)

how many TGR skiers have how much skill would be a supposition on anyone's part. that is why they post up a lot of pics and vids; that is where they make their claim. for example: remember Tyrone? he posted some conclusive images here as to his guts and skills.

Is old school technique obsolete? Perhaps. But it can still be helpful in certain situations. Nothing wrong with having all the tools in the box.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlogiston 

Getting back to the topic, just for a second..
With new shaped skis, taking a lesson at some place like the Hunter Mtn Ski school would hurt a beginner. He'll learn all the obsolete wedging, unweighting and ski-rotating techniques that of the old Graduated Length Method; and nothing about tipping the skis onto their edges and allowing the sidecut to make the turns, efforlessly.
Can't blame the Hunter instructors entirely; from what I've seen, they're lousy skiers themselves. They teach garbage technique because it's all they know. And they're proud of it, too.
So YES, the new technologies make lessons less necessary than they were (if they ever were).

BWPA-

Snow was super heavy and was chopped a pair of S7s killed it for me, my "the ones" met their match. 

Still doesn't get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slider 

Is old school technique obsolete? Perhaps. But it can still be helpful in certain situations. Nothing wrong with having all the tools in the box.
 

BWPA-

Snow was super heavy and was chopped a pair of S7s killed it for me, my "the ones" met their match. 

 

Still doesn't get it.

 

There are so many useful ways to change speed and direction.

example: really manky snow on low angle slope = more closed stance (old school stance)

              survival section with tough conditions = hop initiated turn

I have noticed that ski mountaineers, Chris Davenport, Glenn Plake use technique that is bomber and totally balanced, not necessarily pretty or fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slider 

Is old school technique obsolete? Perhaps. But it can still be helpful in certain situations. Nothing wrong with having all the tools in the box.
 

BWPA-

Snow was super heavy and was chopped a pair of S7s killed it for me, my "the ones" met their match. 

 

Still doesn't get it.

 

eh noone that days was skiing woods because of the snow. If you can do it better on skinnier ski Id like to see it.

I cant wait till this weekend when we get some fresh snow where anything really will work.
 

Ones ability varies by conditions,terrain,gear,ect. Unless of course you are an expert then you could ski 2x4's on ice. I am far from being an expert and at my age will never reach that goal. I can hang with the bros but not with the pros. I like the challenge of difficult conditions it keeps the skills sharp. We have a big warm up 50F @ the mt. it will be interesting to see how well RR skis work in deep slush. Now back to our scheduled programming.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

 

 

eh noone that days was skiing woods because of the snow. If you can do it better on skinnier ski Id like to see it.

 

I cant wait till this weekend when we get some fresh snow where anything really will work.
 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by slider 

Ones ability varies by conditions,terrain,gear,ect. Unless of course you are an expert then you could ski 2x4's on ice. I am far from being an expert and at my age will never reach that goal. I can hang with the bros but not with the pros. I like the challenge of difficult conditions it keeps the skills sharp. We have a big warm up 50F @ the mt. it will be interesting to see how well RR skis work in deep slush. Now back to our scheduled programming.
 

 

ones ability is always the same. Noone in the world can ski thick breakable wind crust in steep VERY tight trees for long enjoyable periods of time unless you have some help from the new tech. I have never seen breakable crust as bad out west as I have seen here. Plus when you get breakable crust out west there is always more room to turn.

Perhaps I was unclear,my point being that usually flat light, old gear or breakable crust regresses your movements, ie fall. Has nothing to do with parameters but your skill level to deal with it. So your skis did not meet their match,you did. We are going from 50F to 20F overnight, maybe will get some of that breakable crust too. Agree technology helps instead of skills.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

 

ones ability is always the same. Noone in the world can ski thick breakable wind crust in steep VERY tight trees for long enjoyable periods of time unless you have some help from the new tech. I have never seen breakable crust as bad out west as I have seen here. Plus when you get breakable crust out west there is always more room to turn.

 

 

 

i so agree snowbowler as per your op below

..as an aspiring intermediate (out 40x this yr) who just got back into skiing a few yrs ago with the new technology,

i take alot of lessons (Iove the commeraderie and feedback) ....and while sometimes the process is a bit redundant, overall I find it useful.

(next year to switch things up i will take the whistler dave murray camp and/or check out the harb harvey ski school)

....sure while the newer skis might both initiate and turn easier for you, there is still so much to learn imo as per executing good upper/lower body separation, balance, turn initiation/entry/exit, proper edging etc etc ( esp on steeper and uneven terrain) all while staying in control.....

...as one coach said to me 'anyone can get down a hill fast...or attempt a steep grade out of their skill level...but to do so in control with good technique and be able to stop or maneuver suddenly should something happen are two differerent things''

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowbowler 

I don't think you can buy technical skiing skills by purchasing new technology gear. I have seen this for the past 15 or so years with regards to shaped ski technology. People have bought the new gear and continued to ski like they already were. Boots locked, twisty/pivoty smears down the fall line. There have been quite a few that have adapted to new shapes but mostly younger kids who have grown up on them. There is not anything wrong with how people are using their skis if they are happy, but they sure are not getting out of the gear anything what they potentially could. Now I'm seeing a lot of the same stuff with todays rockered tech, especially very fat twin tip/rockers with people skiing on groomed slopes right next to untracked or slightly tracked up powder. They don't go in it. So if one has the technical skills to be an excellent skier they can get much more out of the new gear and let it take them places they might not have ventured before. But those skills still need to be developed sometime. The gear won't do it for you. Problem I have found in teaching some people with newer tech i.e. shaped skis is they say they want to learn to use it etc,  but when I say lets go over to some easy green cruiser and try some stuff they don't want to or only grudgingly go. I'll give them things to play around with that could help them to get the most out of their gear but right after the lesson they are  back up on the steeper slopes still hacking their way down. They have to put in the time and mileage (on the easier terrain ) to ingrain the skills that will get them the max out of their gear.

If people are in control, and happy, safe, that's great, but so many think they are way better than they actually are, but because they are comfortable and figured out their own way to get down a difficult run, they don't know how much easier or better it could be if they actually took a lesson. The hardest thing to do is tell someone they need to make changes when they're skiing pretty comfortable, and may not feel they need to improve.

My good friend here in leysin, switzerland, is one of the worst skiers i've ever skied with, but he somehow keeps up with us, on most of the terrain we ski. He refuses a lesson, and says he'll only take one if she is attractive and will let him buy her dinner. He thinks he's in control, but i've learned how to avoid having him run into you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slider 

Perhaps I was unclear,my point being that usually flat light, old gear or breakable crust regresses your movements, ie fall. Has nothing to do with parameters but your skill level to deal with it. So your skis did not meet their match,you did. We are going from 50F to 20F overnight, maybe will get some of that breakable crust too. Agree technology helps instead of skills.
 

 

so if a WC racer finished lower due to being a say a rockered ski it was just his skill level right? or if a Mogul skier used marker binding set at 6 and popped out his skill level let him down right?

My movements worked the 188 S7 that day, they did not work with my Blizzard 'the one" . The S7s stayed right on top and the pintail made the tail sink. "the ones" were submarines and required tons of effort to get a turn to happen in fact sometimes they wouldnt turn at all. So I have one ski that was not confindence inspiring at all and one that was inspiring me to charge. If you want to say that movement regression whatever. There are days here that it impossible to ski the woods on anything but S7 type ski and it is still really tough. The right equipment encourages aggressive movements, the wrong equipment breeds gross ineffective movements. My skis did let me down, if something else worked for me that day, if nothing else worked for me I let me down.

skiingaround... your quote below: totally get you.

I belong to a social ski club...when many of the people get together they like to blast down the hill in a competitive vein...

funny, however, but some (who diss me for taking ''too many lessons'') and who boast of ''never having taken a lesson in my life''

could sure do with one as they blast down the hill mach3 with not much control (or it seems that way)

......sure some have natural ability, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by skiingaround 

If people are in control, and happy, safe, that's great, but so many think they are way better than they actually are, but because they are comfortable and figured out their own way to get down a difficult run, they don't know how much easier or better it could be if they actually took a lesson. The hardest thing to do is tell someone they need to make changes when they're skiing pretty comfortable, and may not feel they need to improve.

My good friend here in leysin, switzerland, is one of the worst skiers i've ever skied with, but he somehow keeps up with us, on most of the terrain we ski. He refuses a lesson, and says he'll only take one if she is attractive and will let him buy her dinner. He thinks he's in control, but i've learned how to avoid having him run into you.

I'm not sure if this will explain a relationship that's similar but it is and it does if you think about it.

For a living I work in a field that when an accident occurs it usually includes people getting hurt or sometimes killed. The industry in the USA is over seen by NFPA 86. Now this is a guide line and not a set of laws, but it is a guide line set up by industry experts that have been in the industry for many many years for most part are familiar with new technologies and innovation's ,very much like skiing its ever evolving in equipment and approach to the final end results.

The guide lines as I said are not the only way to perform the tasks but they are recognized as hopefully the safest. If an incident should occur then the courts refer to NFPA guidelines and you better prove why your way was better then the guide lines that were put forward to keep people safe. ( similar rules in Canada but are the law and you get fined and go to jail for not following)

You don't have to take a lesson or lessons... you can learn to get down the hill on your own but chances are your missing something that you should know for performance safety and stability.

Just cause its new don't make it so you don't need your old basics.

In answer to the OP's thread title "Does the new ski technology reduce the need for lessons?"   No.

As a former boss told me back in the early/mid 90s "Funny thing, if people can't carve a turn on straight skis, they can't carve one on shapes either".

On the other hand to answer the question in the OPs text. "So if a person can ski the whole mountain and enjoy it, why take a lesson to get any better?".   

Why indeed?

As BushwackerinPA is laboriously trying to convince all and sundry, being on the right tool can make everything easier. If someone wishes to invest in the hardware they can "buy" a way to maximize the enjoyment of their existing skills. Just getting on a new ski can be a lesson in itself.

I personally would rather upgrade my skills to get the most out of my existing equipment, but if others would rather buy stuff rather then knowledge/experience more power to them. That means the "new" (lots of skis from the 30's are mid rise, pintail designs) gear will continue to develop. On the other hand I can buy a lot of lesson time for the cost of buying new gear every year.

breakable crust can only get so bad (thick and frozen) before you float on top of it....snarking aside, new wide skis have made breakable crust just another snow condition, no longer feared as back in the day.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

 

ones ability is always the same. Noone in the world can ski thick breakable wind crust in steep VERY tight trees for long enjoyable periods of time unless you have some help from the new tech. I have never seen breakable crust as bad out west as I have seen here. Plus when you get breakable crust out west there is always more room to turn.

 

 

 

You say'n I can leave the hockey shin guards at home with the new skis?

New wider skis, with rockered tips seem to make the hockey shinguards a thing of the past, like buggy whips.

I am a mere newb here, but felt an urge to stick my neck out;

Regardless of equipment and level, everybody will benefit from lessons with a good instructor/trainer/coach, unless you have a highly developed remote viewing skill in order to see yourself skiing, or someone filming you ( and then filming complete runs ).

When I free ski with other instructors we almost always ask and give critique to eachother, something I find very useful.

We also have bi-weekly , internal ski school clinics, in order to acquire better skills.

If the best skiers in the world benefit from instruction, I find it strange that average Joe believes he doesn't need it if he wants to improve his skiing quickly.

I had the chance to ski for a few hours with one of our norwegian national team trainers last week, and I know my skiing improved from it.

In the end, though, it's all about enjoying your skiing. Improving your skill will make you enjoy it even more.

Lets hope that will not be the case.

Neck is stretched out on the block, make sure your axe is sharp.

Happy skiing!

This is the truth and the light and probably the chief reason people get into ski teaching: lessons work for us -- we believe! -- and  we want to spread the love around. 

skis are merely the tools used to attack the mountain.  fat skis, skinny skis, choose your weapon but using the tools requires skills.  you can get it with experience, trial and error or you can take lessons.  I;ve done it both ways-self taught to begin with, took "free lessons" included in week long trips but have never paid upfront for lessons. 

the lessons really helped me jumpstart my skiing out of being a plateaued intermediate(you know, only likes cruising groomed green, blue and black trails, avoid steeps and bumps like the plague).

my advice to beginners and plateaued intermediates-take a  week long trip where lessons might be included.  in my case, took 3 trips to sugarloaf maine 3 years in a row and the lessons helped me get over some of my issues.  you can;t learn enough in a single day or even a weekend.  you need to ski several days in a row for everything to stick.  I get frustrated by my "once a year" ski/snowboard friends who never get better because they don;t want to take more than 2 days(and 4 hours or less per day) to try it.  i say don;t think of it as a sunk cost but as an investment in your future fun.  since then, i;ve bought shorter but fatter skis and skied at bigger mountains.

on my last trip, my friend;s wife just started skiing this year, after snowboarding for the previous few.  never took lessons and was husband taught.  she was doing pretty good on the east coast small mountains with our coaching.  we went to utah and experience 4 powder days.  in spite of a few shaky moments, she handled everything thrown at her reasonably well and in the end enjoyed herself immensely.  Steeps, knee to thigh deep powder, pow bumps, trekking through unknown woods.  her tool for the trip?  skinny 140 length Junior race skis(she;s 5 foot, 100 lbs).  she probably had to work harder to compensate for her skinny skis but in the end her technique got better overall.  she'll probably get bigger, burlier skis in the future but i think she came off the trip feeling really satisfied having not "cheated".

tek, there are wider skis that are not necessarily burlier, as in heavier or stiffer. by learning about powder skis, you can get something wide that has no down side, and will feel lively and energetic, not burly. And not cheater skis.

A reason for lessons: people do not have an accurate image of themselves skiing. Ask them if they're bending their knees to the max and they'll say yes while barely flexing their knees. Likewise angulation and extension etc. People tend to think they are in a more defined body position than they actually are, and are shocked when they see a video of themselves as a stiff stick person with no upper body separation. The extra set of critical eyes is essential. 

she;s probably not buying powder skis, just something more all mountain appropiate so she can grow as her skill set improves.  her current skis are "starter skis".

i don;t disagree about lessons but maybe people do better with a ski coach instead.  usually when they take the weeklong lessons, people drop out and by the end of the week it becomes more or less a private lesson.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tekweezle 
 usually when they take the weeklong lessons, people drop out and by the end of the week it becomes more or less a private lesson.

I must be doing something right, The times I've done ski week or season long programs my groups are more likely to grow then shrink. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by madMads 

I am a mere newb here, but felt an urge to stick my neck out;

 

Regardless of equipment and level, everybody will benefit from lessons with a good instructor/trainer/coach, unless you have a highly developed remote viewing skill in order to see yourself skiing, or someone filming you ( and then filming complete runs ).

When I free ski with other instructors we almost always ask and give critique to eachother, something I find very useful.

 

We also have bi-weekly , internal ski school clinics, in order to acquire better skills.

 

If the best skiers in the world benefit from instruction, I find it strange that average Joe believes he doesn't need it if he wants to improve his skiing quickly.

 

I had the chance to ski for a few hours with one of our norwegian national team trainers last week, and I know my skiing improved from it.

 

In the end, though, it's all about enjoying your skiing. Improving your skill will make you enjoy it even more.

 

 

Lets hope that will not be the case.

 

Neck is stretched out on the block, make sure your axe is sharp.

 

Happy skiing!

 

 

(bolding mine)

Excellent post, MadMads--and a slightly belated welcome to EpicSki!

It really does amaze me how many people believe you can simply buy better skiing, pushed perhaps by peer pressure, marketing blitzes, the (false) promise of "instant gratification," and the current trend toward mediocrity being "good enough." There is a concurrent thread running that asks what people think would help them most at becoming better skiers, and it fascinates me how few posters mention coaching or instruction. 

---

Does buying a faster car make you a better driver? Does buying an SUV keep you on the icy road?

Does buying a new knife make you a better chef?

Does buying a new BMW make you a better lawyer?

---

A good instructor can look at any skier on the mountain and quickly identify a focus that will help that skier enjoy the sport more, and get more out of whatever equipment he or she chooses, on whatever terrain or condition he or she wants to ski. I recognize that great instructors may be hard to find, and that good instruction is not cheap. But it will make a world of difference. Even poor skiing can be rewarding and fun, but there are sensations in good turns, along with confidence, efficiency, safety, and joy, that no new gear purchase alone will ever approach.

Best regards,

Bob

Equipment technology?  I wonder...

Each spring I do my own "retro fling". ' bring out the older boards.  This past week, over only a few days, I was able to enjoy quality time on some differing technology.  Late model Elan Wavemasters, some old  Volkle G4's and a pair of G3's too , Some VERY old K2 710s and even a full day on some "Swiss Army" no names, just a serial number and the little Swiss cross, with FT88  AT bindings. (72 mm width tip to tail)

They were all great fun and provide much pleasure.

Spring conditions, from morning crust to afternoon mank, and everything between. Trees too,  no white rooms,  that was a few weeks ago ;-)

Spring tends to bring out the best in me...

Do I have a preference?  sure, (G4's)

  Do any of them put limits on where or what I ski?  I don't feel they do.

Do I ski "different" with each?  Most likely, the sensations are wildly different! (But they still turn both ways)

Could I ski better?  sure!

Maybe I should wrangle a lesson.....next season early ;-)   but which ski should I use........;-)

Cheers

Cal

At the end of the day, no equipment, no matter how good, will ever replace the value of a lesson. Whether it be motor racing, lawn bowls or sky diving, there's always room to learn from a professional.