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M.A. for CSIA 3 - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Hmm...I'm not even sure we're reading the same post, SkiDude. I've gone back a few times since you first mentioned it, and I cannot find anywhere where Danny says anything about comments from a coach, beyond the following few words:
Quote:
main feedback is based on aft balance relating to flex and extension

Where did he mention that "His coach told him he has too much ankle flex"? Perhaps the post has been edited and I missed it.

Regardless, since Danny posted a video clip and asked for movement analysis on it, it should make no difference what his coach or anyone else has said about his prior performances. I'm going by what I see--and I acknowledge that what I see reflects Danny's stated intent as well as his habitual movements and his equipment setup. It is only because Danny suggests that he is trying to keep his ankles extended, his back "rounded," and his arms more forward than usual that I accept the possibility that it might not be a boot issue. But if it isn't, it most certainly still won't be addressed by some of the boot-based "corrections" that others here have suggested.
Quote:
in some of his turns...like 1/3 to half of them...he gets plenty of ankle flex right at the start of the bottom third before he quickly does the ankle straighten to finish....again that is without even trying to flex the boot

I'm not seeing that, either, SkiDude. Perhaps our definitions of "plenty of ankle flex" differ, but I see minimal flex even at the most-flexed moments in this run. Take a look at the following sequence, from around 12-13 seconds in the video clip:

500

In the first frame, on the right, Danny is somewhere in the area of the "start of the bottom third" of the turn, as you describe, where his ankles are about as flexed as they get. I would not call that very much ankle flexion, and he still bends forward strongly with his upper body to maintain fore-aft balance. (Imagine what would happen if he had to flex his knees much lower, as in absorbing a large mogul.) The center image, a mere two frames later in the video, shows his feet having moved forward beneath him, further extending his ankles. In the final frame (left), just another moment later, he has extended his knees sharply, throwing his CM forward and pressing his shins against his boot tongues, actually lifting his ski tails off the snow--still with what I would describe as minimal ankle flex. In all of these images, from flexed to extended, from pressuring tails to pressuring tips, his spine remains tilted considerably more forward than his shins. Although they may not be conclusive in themselves, these are classic signs of insufficient forward boot lean.

Hey, as many here know, I may be the last person to say "not enough ankle flex"--I rarely feel the need to press forward against my own boots, much less try to "flex" them. But I'm also acutely aware of the issues of insufficient forward lean, since I am prone to it myself with my very thin lower legs.

Best regards,
Bob
post #32 of 56



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Hmm...I'm not even sure we're reading the same post, SkiDude. I've gone back a few times since you first mentioned it, and I cannot find anywhere where Danny says anything about comments from a coach, beyond the following few words:


Quote:
main feedback is based on aft balance relating to flex and extension



Where did he mention that "His coach told him he has too much ankle flex"? Perhaps the post has been edited and I missed it.

 

 

I read this....I interpreted what he said to mean that he was trying to stay off the front of the boot delibaratley.  Bold is mine.  I intpreted it as this was all coming from his coaches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyfleming View Post

Hi Everyone.

Im currently in training for the CSIA 3, which I hope to pass end of this season. Iv been working on a few things, but main feedback is based on aft balance relating to flex and extension. Im usually quite heavy on the front of my boots, so when I come to flex to allow my COM to come back to my BOS, Iv little option but to bend my knees alot. 

Here Im trying to keep my ancle extended - on the gas pedel feeling the back of my boot. Im rounding my back more than usual with arms further forward to try and keep in balance fore-aft.

Any MA would be great.

Thankyou!

Danny



 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes 

Quote:
in some of his turns...like 1/3 to half of them...he gets plenty of ankle flex right at the start of the bottom third before he quickly does the ankle straighten to finish....again that is without even trying to flex the boot



I'm not seeing that, either, SkiDude. Perhaps our definitions of "plenty of ankle flex" differ, but I see minimal flex even at the most-flexed moments in this run. Take a look at the following sequence, from around 12-13 seconds in the video clip:

500

Best regards,
Bob



Here are some screen shots:  Excessive ankle flex? No.  But for a guy trying NOT to flex...that is a fair bit.  It dont appear he needs help to flex forward if he wanted to....

 

ankles6.png

 ankles1.pngankels2.pngankels3.pngankels4.pngankles5.png

post #33 of 56
SkiDude--your images are not convincing me. Folded at the waist as Danny already is in each and every one of those frames, he would need to fold and reach forward even more if his boots (shins) were even more upright, as with toe lifts ("gas pedals") or shims on the boot tongues. If you have tried to isolate frames where Danny shows the most ankle flex and forward shin position in this entire run, then these images support my contention that Danny would benefit from a bit more forward lean (probably by increasing delta angle, but possibly just from tipping the cuffs forward or inserting calf shims).

Forward lean and "boot flex" can be deceptive, often appearing more extreme than it is. Here is a sequence of myself, taken several years ago at Arapahoe Basin. I'm wearing very snug Nordica Dobermann WC150 plug boots that were setup quite upright for me. I can assure you that not only was I not pressuring forward or flexing those boots as much as it looks, but I cannot and could not flex those boots as much as it looks:
500

Even with these very snug, very stiff boots that were, if anything, still too upright for me, it appears that I am flexing them deeply in the second half of the turn, doesn't it? I assure you that looks are deceiving!

I'll stand by my original analysis. You are welcome to interpret the evidence differently. Danny should experiment!

Best regards,
Bob
post #34 of 56

Why?  You keep repeating yourself...but offer no explanation for your rational and blatantly ignoring the assessment/OP that his ankles are that straight cause he is trying to keep them there, rather you are insisting they are forced there by the boots. 

 

 

 

My approach is simple:

 

The skier is generally back...to correct I would reccomend more flexion of the ankle....more specifically a greater degree of progressive flexion of the ankle. 

 

His response...but when i do that, I tend to end up too far forward.

 

My response...ok pad the tongue or similiar, then try a greater degree of progressive flexion....the padded tongue will prevent you getting too far forward.

 

 

Whats your approach?  If I follow you:

 

The skier is generally back...so to correct tilt the boots more forward.

 

How does that create a more progressive and effictive flexion of the ankle?  More forward boots just alters the static neutral point.....which he will still be pushing into the BACK OF with your approach.  As an exercise "feel the back of the boot" is fine....but it is not an effective way to ski.   You need to come up with something that allows him to work the forward cuff of the boot and not end up too far forward as he struggled with before. 

 

If you want to ignore the written "pre-assessment" he offered in the OP (whether it be his own or that of a coach) that is up to you....but I dont think it affords this guy or his coaches as the case maybe the respect they deserve.

 

I agree thou on your expirment idea...boots are definatley worth playing with.  I doubt we will agree on much else so we might as well leave it here.

post #35 of 56
Honestly, SkiDude, what part of "I have acknowledged that he says he is trying to "open" his ankle and become more upright" or "I'm going by what I see--and I acknowledge that what I see reflects Danny's stated intent as well as his habitual movements and his equipment setup" does not translate into Canadian? What part of "It is not critical--or possible--to find the "right" answer here with the limited information we have so far ... any of the suggested solutions "might" be the one that works," so aggravates you?

Why are you so concerned about convincing me? I appreciate your perspective, but I'm not the one who is asking for help in this thread. I really don't wish to argue with you. I've presented substantial justification for my conclusions from the visuals we have, including a frame in which, despite his stated intent to press against the backs of his boots, Danny has literally thrown himself forward against his boot tongues (left image, post #31)--which still shows very little ankle flex. You have justified your perspective with a bunch of images showing Danny at arguably his "most flexed" moments, which to my eyes still show minimal forward lean considering that's as far as he ever gets--and I've shown you why I think the appearance can be deceiving.

You seem to want to argue, SkiDude, but you have not actually described the point you're trying to make. Do you think Danny's boots should be more upright? I accept that you think that Danny's upright shins and forward upper body may be entirely due to his intent--let me repeat that again: I accept that Danny's upright shins and forward upper body may be entirely due to his intent--and I have agreed that it could well be movement (intent) based, rather than a boot issue. Personally, I think it's unlikely--but not impossible. That's what experimenting and another clip should reveal, but the results are not in yet.

So, what are you thinking? Do you think that Danny needs his boots to be more upright than they are? Do you agree with the suggestions that a "gas pedal" or tongue shims would help? I won't say that these things aren't worth a try while he's experimenting, but I'll be very surprised if they do the trick. I submit that regardless of the reason he shows minimal forward lean in this clip--movements, intent, or equipment--the fact remains that he shows minimal forward lean. Adding forward lean to his boots may well not be the solution (if the problem is movement/intent-based)--and I've never suggested otherwise--but reducing the forward lean is most certainly not going to help, and I suspect it will make the problem worse. Visualize what would happen in any of the images you and I have posted, if his boots had less forward lean, moving his knees and hips further back, requiring him to bend and reach even more forward to compensate.

You don't have to agree, and you don't have to convince me. You don't have to experiment yourself, if you don't want to. I've explained why I think Danny should experiment with his forward lean. Are you trying to argue that he shouldn't? If so, I ask you--how could it help Danny to convince him not to experiment with a possible solution?

Experimentation will produce the answers Danny needs, and I think we've adequately justified why he ought to experiment. That's really all we can do at the moment. There is little point in debating the likely outcome. I have my suspicions. You may also--and yours may differ. That's fine--but Danny needs to find the answer.

Best regards,
Bob
post #36 of 56
Danny, all of this discussion arises from my suggestion that your boot setup may be less than optimal. While I still recommend exploring that possibility for the all reasons we've discussed, I would not suggest that it is the only thing to explore.

Remember that the whole point of optimizing fore-aft setup is to allow you to move efficiently so you can control fore-aft pressure on your skis throughout your maximum range of "vertical" motion. I still suspect that your setup compromises that efficiency and control to some extent but either way, there is still the question of what you choose to do with that control when you have it.

What is your belief--what do you want your skis to feel--as far as fore-aft pressure distribution is concerned, when you ski? What effects are you looking for? As Weems might ask, what is your intended purpose, and how do you see fore-aft pressure control affecting it?

Best regards,
Bob
post #37 of 56
Quote:
"no chance of working"

Nowhere did I say or imply that, SkiDude. Nowhere. Quite the opposite. Please refrain from misquoting me, and misrepresenting me so in the future.

Now let's see--we've seen suggestions ranging from toe lift to heel lift, from inside the boot to under the bindings, from technique adjustments to equipment changes, and from Canada to Finland to the US to Sweden (at least). If that doesn't qualify for the description of "all over the map," I don't know what does! Why does that offend you?
Quote:
No one is aggravated, Bob ... That aggrevates me

Make up your mind.

---

Sorry, Danny. I hope you're getting sufficient food for thought out of this thread. That's really all that matters.

Best regards,
Bob
post #38 of 56



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post



Quote:
"no chance of working"



Nowhere did I say or imply that, SkiDude. Nowhere. Quite the opposite. Please refrain from misquoting me, and misrepresenting me so in the future.
 

 



Um....these are direct quotes Bob...I only added the highlight....right in your post #35....bolded in red....again.

 


Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

So, what are you thinking? Do you think that Danny needs his boots to be more upright than they are? Do you agree with the suggestions that a "gas pedal" or tongue shims would help? I won't say that these things aren't worth a try while he's experimenting, but I'll be very surprised if do the trick. I submit that regardless of the reason he shows minimal forward lean in this clip--movements, intent, or equipment--the fact remains that he shows minimal forward lean. Adding forward lean to his boots may well not be the solution (if the problem is movement/intent-based)--and I've never suggested otherwise--but reducing the forward lean is most certainly not going to help, and I suspect it will make the problem worse. Visualize what would happen in any of the images you and I have posted, if his boots had less forward lean, moving his knees and hips further back, requiring him to bend and reach even more forward to compensate.



 

 


Post #11

 

Quote:
 Heluva--your suggestions above--particularly the "gas pedal" (lift under toe of boot)--will make Danny's problem worse.

 

 

If these dont imply "no chance of working", then sorry, what do they mean?  I thought no chance of working was a  good paraphrase, if not, what do you think would be more accurate?
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes 

 

Quote:

No one is aggravated, Bob ... That aggrevates me


Make up your mind.---

Well lets look at the full quote, not just snippets:   

 

 Quote:

 No one is aggravated Bob, by a "hey it might be worth giving this a whirl......

 

Now who is misquoting?  Again, it is important you hold yourself to the same standard you expect of others.

 

 

 

If you want to keep going here with the ....snowfight.gif

 

 

 

 I am ok with that, but I dont see the point.  nonono2.gif

 

Altthough admittley there is a part of me that would love to see you try and explain yourself out of your latest post.  Dont worry I saw your "all over the map" explanation...well done, very clever.

 

 

 

post #39 of 56
PS--SkiDude--you'd better have some pretty good justification for calling me a liar.
Quote:
frankly Bob, I thnk you are lying. I think you are saying that his self assessment is wrong because it is the only explanation you can offer to support your position.

And how many times do I have to specifically and explicitly acknowledge Danny's self-assessment and intent for you to get it? I never said it was wrong, and I have fully accepted it and considered it in my suggestions. I have never dissed anyone else's assessment either. I don't agree with all of them, but I can certainly respect the poster and disagree without "dissing."

I don't blame you for preferring to drop it.

Best regards,
Bob
post #40 of 56

I'll respond via pm.

post #41 of 56
Comments sure did go in a Boot Direction. Since others focused so much on Danny's re-alignment via boot mods, I think I'll row a different boat and offer a different path of re-alignment: Through movement pattern changes.


Danny Fleming,

Looking carefully at your video I'll suggest you have excellent balancing skills overall - and an easy, athletic flow to your skiing. I don't see a F/A balancing error - I see appropriate compensation for a Leg-Positioning error. Good Athleticism Plus Good Balance applied to an Inappropriate Movement Pattern equals a Funky Outcome (mathematically, GA + GB ~~> IMP = FO) . smile.gif


Is your coach requesting that you "Drive your feet around"..? Perhaps "Drive your outside-foot around/forward"..? Maybe even "Reduce your Tip-Lead"? That's what I'm seeing and I think it's what's causing a multitude of issues requiring compensatory movements that manifest with the appearance of boot issues. I don't think you need to modify your boots, just modify your technique.

By driving both feet Out, Forward & Around your CM will end up "back and inside" most of the turn. To retain your F/A Balance you'll need to 'lean forward' and compensate for the pelvis being so far behind both feet. At turn finish you'll also have no choice but to make a big Up, Forward & Over movement with your pelvis to achieve a practical crossover because the previous turn ended with your pelvis so far inside & back (exactly what I see in the video).

In the video, each turn starts fine and you seem to be in an appropriate stance overall. As the turn progresses you seem to 'drive' that outside foot forward eliminating nearly all tip-lead. Mechanically, this is putting your outside-foot in front of your CM and since your inside-foot is also in front of your CM, you must bend forward at the waist to compensate and regain your F/A balance.

---
Consider the Static Demo where a person takes off their skis and draws an "arc" in the snow with their outside-boot. They then draw the same kind of arc using the inside-boot. In theory, they're showing the path that skis travel in relation to the body/pelvis during an actual turn - but this is False! In real skiing the skier is also traveling forward while their feet "arc Out & Around" so their feet actually don't end up in front of them (as in the Demo) and instead cross under their body at the end of the proposed arc. The feet should never end up in front of them as in the Arcing-Boot Demo. BB has some moving Gifs in this video at 0:07 that show the Figure-Eight pattern our skis really travel.

Your own video demonstrates driving both feet in that Out & Around arc - but that puts your outside-foot continuously in front of your pelvis once the turn starts. This "puts pressure" against the back of your boot cuffs and may be the sensory input you were asked to look for.

If you implement this 'driving' idea then you must (necessarily) compensate by leaning your upper-body forward and downhill, essentially moving your CM forward to get it 'back over' that (now) too-far-forward outside-foot. Since this 'driving' pattern also puts your pelvis quite far inside and back at turn-finish you must make a big lateral Up & Forward move (with your pelvis) to quickly get across your skis into the new turn. You implement this as a relatively smooth (though abrupt) motion showing an excellent sense of re-balancing. But why do something that requires re-balancing for every turn?

---
Proposed Modifications

Since others have offered experiments to try, I'll do the same.

1) Discard the idea of driving that outside-foot forward and instead implement Independent Leg Steering (ILS), accepting the resulting Tip-Lead.
(I think 'Todo' may have been suggesting something along these lines earlier)

Watch this video of pivot slips paying special attention to the position of the skier's feet in relation to each other. Also pay close attention to the position of each foot in relation to the skier's CM. Note the foot-lead separation that occurs as each pivot develops. Implement this ILS pattern in your turns and don't worry about tip-lead nor driving the outside-foot forward.

2) Since you'll now have some tip-lead (foot-lead) at turn finish, stand mostly (60%) on that old outside-foot right through transition because it's the only foot under your CM and the one currently providing a solid platform to stand in-balance on. To initiate the new turn, simply tip this old outside-foot (that you're still mostly standing on) toward the new turn making no effort to 'step uphill' onto the old inside-foot (because it's still a bit in front of you - and doing so will only put you in the back seat) No Fore/Aft 're-balancing' effort is needed.

3) As the new turn begins, use ILS to progressively rotate both legs, guiding both ski tips into the new turn's direction. Use functional tension in your Glutes and Hamstrings to keep that new outside-foot under you as it repositions itself (via ILS) and increasingly becomes your new stance-foot and more weight lands on it. As your feet "change F/A positions", new tip-lead will be created as will appropriate counter for the new turn.

4) By not 'driving' the outside foot/ski forward, that foot will remain in a good place at turn finish (namely, under your CM) so you wont need to lean forward at the waist to be in F/A Balance. Further, you'll be able to progressively release edge-angles late in the old turn and allow your pelvis to migrate progressively across your skis. This pattern keeps a skier in continuous F/A Balance and permits the skier to move progressively into the new turn rather than needing to implement a big Up, Over & Forward re-balancing move.


---
The reason I don't think your boots are 'too stiff' is that I never see any real effort to flex them and therefore I don't know if they'd flex properly or not. They just might.

I also don't think your boots are 'too upright' because the technique you seem to be implementing drives the feet forward which extends both the knees and ankles - which never really flexes the boot anyway, and also requires that you flex forward at the waist to compensate. I see several frames at turn initiations where you seem to be in an ideal F/A balance position for a brief moment - then you drive your feet forward, opening both knees and ankles.


Look again at the video linked above (again, right here). This time look at the skiing. Regardless whether Braking or Gliding, both skiers demonstrate ILS and both skiers have that outside-foot under them when they "stand" firmly on it (due to ILS). In no case does either skier "drive the outside-foot forward" to the point that they've opened both knee & ankle and bend forward at the waist.

Just my 2¢, but a good investment I think.

.ma
post #42 of 56

Danny,

Simply put, try to get your hips/pelvis forward.  It would be interesting to see a picture of you standing in your neutral, flexed ski stance?  When skiing your angles should compliment each other.  IE. the angle from your ankle to your knee should be the same as that from your waist to your shoulders etc.  I only skimmed through the thread, but the photos in post #31 show that this is not happening & I think that might be a cue that could help you find more efficient movements.

JF

post #43 of 56
Ahem...well, good--thanks, MichaelA, for attempting to bring this thread back on track! As I mentioned in post #36, I never intended my initial suggestion to look at boot alignment to become the exclusive focus of this discussion. I still think that there may be issues of boot alignment that compromise Danny's ability to control his fore-aft pressure, especially when he flexes deeply, but the significance of these things may appear overblown and out of proportion in the recent discussion. Danny, I still encourage you to experiment with these things. But I agree with MichaelA and others that there are a few movement-based things you might explore as well.

First and foremost, as I suggested in post #36, I am wondering what your thoughts are regarding your intent for fore-aft pressure on your skis. What do you want your skis to "feel," and how do you want them to move and perform on the snow? I agree with Michael that it appears that your intent may be to push your feet forward--especially the outside foot--to complete the turn. This movement is quite pronounced in the original short video clip you posted, and I've captured a few frames that show it clearly (see my post #31). It's a fairly abrupt move that gives the appearance of an edgeset to finish the turn, and that you tend to follow with an equally abrupt "up and forward and downhill" move of your hips and center, with a strong knee extension, to start your next turn (left image in post #31). This move does tend to get you forward onto the fronts of your skis early in the turn, which leads to the tails twisting out with the forward pivot point others have mentioned. Then you push your feet forward again, stopping the skid, completing the turn, and beginning the cycle over again.

That it looks a little abrupt and disconnected could well be due to your focus on keeping your ankles extended and avoiding being "heavy" on the fronts of your boots. As I've mentioned before, I'd love to see some video you "just skiing," without this particular focus. I think many instructors and other skiers tend to be too "heavy" on their boot tongues and try to get too much pressure on their ski tips when it is not needed, so it is quite possible that this is a good focus for you. But like any drill, you have to stop doing it to see how it has affected your skiing. I'd still love to see a clip of you just skiing "naturally."

In any case, I assume that you would prefer to have your skis carving more cleanly throughout more of the turn and to shape your turns more smoothly, but it would be helpful to hear your thoughts on what outcome you were trying to achieve. Until I hear otherwise, I'll go with my assumption. To accomplish "smoother, rounder, and carvier," I'd suggest you play with fore-aft movements similar to what you have been making, but adjust the timing ("DIRT"--Duration, Intensity, Rate, and Timing). I suggest that you DO want your feet to move forward beneath your body (CM) as you exit the turn--as you show in this clip--but that you need to allow the movement of your feet to continue unimpeded through the transition and into the initiation of the new turn. As it is, your feet "jet" forward to complete the turn with significant tail (and back of the boot) pressure, but then they abruptly slow down as your knees extend and your CM passes over the top to re-establish "tip pressure" early in the turn. This may well be your intention--it is for many skiers and instructors--but this is where I'd suggest you experiment (and possibly reconsider your beliefs, if necessary).

Instead of finishing your turn on your tails and then throwing your body forward and down the hill (relative to your feet), play with finishing--and starting your next turn--neutral. By "neutral," I mean balanced over the center of your downhill foot or slightly aft of center (beneath your ankle, aft of your arch), with your shins "neutral" in your boot cuffs--pressing neither forward nor aft. (Also coinciding with the moment of edge release, this "neutral" is the same attitude required for Pivot Slips, as seen in my video clip that MichaelA linked to.) Now the crux: allow your feet to pass through this "neutral" point unimpeded, and to continue across the hill beneath your body (CM). As they do this, it may appear that you are "in the back seat" for a moment in the initiation of the new turn, and you may well feel the back of your boots nudging the backs of your legs. To have finished "neutral" (balanced over your downhill foot), your body (CM) will have had to be moving downhill as you exited the previous turn, so all you have to do is let that movement continue across your skis, down the hill, and into the new turn. No effort is required to throw or push your body downhill--your body was already moving in the right direction, so you need only let it continue undisturbed. You will NOT feel "tip pressure" at the top of the new turn--nor will you need to. Your new turn will literally begin without effort, with the sensation of lightness and floating until your edges re-engage cleanly to carve through the control phase of the new turn, with pressure distributed along the length of the entire ski.

This may seem complicated, but it is really quite simple and nearly effortless when you get it right. Here's an image of Jimmy Cochran training at Keystone a couple years ago, showing what I'm talking about:
500

...and an image of Finland's Tanya Poutiannen, from Ron LeMaster's excellent collection (there are many more at www.ronlemaster.com):

500

Because they travel a longer path, your feet always move faster than your body (unless you do something to slow them down). Therefore, they MUST pass underneath you and move ahead of you, in a sense, in the transitions of linked turns. Meanwhile, your body takes a shortcut down the hill, getting ahead of the feet again by the time pressure is re-established in the control phase. We've discussed this transition at length over the past several years. (I call it the "X-Move"--a reference to the crossing paths of the feet and CM; others have labeled it "Foot Squirt.") It does involve a different intent and understanding from what you may currently subscribe to (and it may not fit the describers of some specific CSIA exam maneuvers--that's for you to determine). You may want to study the following recent threads for more discussion, along with some great images and video clips:

Is This Aft?

Reconciling Foot Squirt™ with Foragonal movements

Here's a summary of the specific movement changes that I encourage you to explore:
  • Slow down the abrupt forward "jetting" of your feet as you exit the turn, such that your feet pass through "neutral" at the moment your turn ends (and the next turn begins)
  • Allow that forward momentum of your feet to continue through neutral and into the new turn, letting your feet move out from underneath your body and toward what will be the outside of the new turn.
  • Give your ankles permission to extend somewhat and your feet permission to get "ahead of you" as they pass through neutral and into the new turn.
  • Do not try to "get forward" or create immediate tip pressure to start your new turn.
  • Savor--don't fight--the sensation of "floating" into the new turn, as your feet move off to the side and your body moves more directly down the hill.
  • Steer your skis precisely through this float phase, so that they continue pointing the direction they're moving and re-engage their edges smoothly as the pressure/control phase begins.
  • Allow your body (pelvis up) to remain "countered," with some uphill tip lead, as your legs rotate in your hip sockets beneath your pelvis--especially as you finish the turn and pass through "neutral" into the new turn. (MichaelA has also suggested this.)
  • As your skis carve through the control phase, they will progressively gain speed, eliminating your need to abruptly "jet" them forward as you did in your clip. Just let them continue, out of the old turn, through the transition, and into the new turn.
  • Unless you encounter a specific situational need to do otherwise, strive to maintain the pressure on your ski(s) in the same fore-aft "sweet spot" throughout the pressure phase of the turn--centered beneath your ankle. This will provide the cleanest, full-ski carving action.

These movements will feel quite different from the movements you have shown us in your video clip, Danny. It's hard to say whether you'll like the sensations at first, but keep playing with them. Your comfort--and your understanding--will develop quickly!

---

Finally, a word of caution: Again, I do not pretend to know exactly what you are looking for as an outcome in these turns, or what any "official" maneuver description may be for your CSIA certification exam. I have made some assumptions about these things, but you may have a highly specified task in mind that differs from my suggestions. Specifically, as others have noted too, I know that CSIA still prefers a strong "up" extension in the transitions of many turns, presumably to aid the edge release. This upward extension is not necessary when you finish your turns in "neutral" with an edge release, although there is no particular reason you cannot extend to a "tall neutral" as you exit the previous turn if the describers require it.

Well, if you didn't have enough to think about and play with before, you may now, Danny!

Best regards,
Bob
post #44 of 56
Thread Starter 

 

Sop this was filmed a couple weeks ago. Its on a groomed steep blue//black pitch. I see inclination and improper balance over the outside ski. Flexion wise, Lots of knee at the end. Im sinking down quite low, almost folding against the pressure. I dont really see any active ancle extension here. So my trainers goal is to even out my movements at the 3 lower joints.

 

Hopefully this will help clarify some points!

KR

Dan

post #45 of 56

There we go...

 

Well as I suspected your OP comments were pretty good.  Pad your tongues, and pull the pivot point back...the rest will fall into place.

 

Good Exercises:

 

Pivot slips (down a line)

Speiss (down a line)

Speiss with steering

1000 Steps

Hockey Stops (down a line)

Delay Turns (Tokyo Drift Style)

 

I like these exercises becuase you can easily self assess, especially the down a line ones.  Make a line in the snow with your pole, or get a friend to make one, or use a groomer line, or shadow line...or what have you...obvioulsy, the goal is to keep the pivot point on that line, if you drift off it, your pivot point is likely forward in your case...but could be back also. 

 

Good luck and keep us posted.

post #46 of 56

Danny, try this progression. I think it will help you get to where you are going.

 

Start out with outside ski turns one turn at a time on a gentle slope. Stand on a flat facing down the falline and let some speed build up. Next slowly tip the ski on edge and turn until you head up the hill to a stop. No skidding here, ride the skis hard edge across the hill. Tipping movements should originate in the foot and be accompanied by mirrored movements of the lifted foot. Next use the mirrored movements in the lifted foot to help shaped this carve across the hill to a stop. You won't be able to settle back, nor will you be able to bank or incline. Success will require that you stay centered and move with the skis, and as you shape the turn out of the falline, you will need to angulate and balance over the outside ski.

 

When this is feeling good and you can stay relaxed and centered throughout the turn and you are not making adjustments to your stance you can them move onto the next phase, which is linking carved outside ski turns. Start in the same way as before, except now you will place the lifted foot down on it's little edge, pick up the old outside ski and then change edges on the new stance ski by rolling it onto the the big toe edge. Tip it, don't twist it. Use lower body tipping to shape and tighten up your turns. Again use mirroring movements of the lifted foot and leg to assist in your tipping movements. Remember to change stance feet by placing the lifted foot down on it's little toe outside edge before you roll the ski onto it's new inside edge. This will help isolate your tipping movements to the lower body and keep you from inclining into the turn. Using mirroing movements of the lifted inside foot and leg will help you angulate and stay balanced over the outside foot. Also remember, no skidding or twisting of the stance foot. Riding a clean edge in this progression forces accuracy along with moving with the ski. You will have use all three lower joints in a coordinated manner. If you over flex your knees you will find yourself either skidding out or having to place your lifted ski down on the snow. Same thing will happen if you don't angulate over the outside ski, you find yourself placing the the lifted ski down.

 

 

When you can fluidly move from one turn to the next staying balanced over the outside ski as you use lower body tipping to shape your turn you will be ready for the next phase of the progression. Now add in your flexion and extension movements. When you place the new stance ski on the snow and start to roll it onto it's big toe edge, extend smoothly at this time, carrying this extension into the falline. In the falline you can then smoothly reverse these movements by slowly flexing down until it is time to change stance feet and start a new turn. Keep em carving still, no skidding or twisting. You have time and space in these turns, so make the time it takes to do your movements match the space it takes to do your turns. The key to this learning progression is to keep you skis carving. If you skid the skis you can be out of balance and then catch yourself by changing the steering angle (twisting the ski). Keep em carving and you have no such safety net. If you try this let us know how it goes.

post #47 of 56
Thread Starter 

 

So after a lot of work on...well pretty much everything...here I am now. I had the privilege to ski with 2 members of the csia 2011 Interski team over the weekend and they changed my skiing alot.

Any more thoughts would be appreciated!

Dan

post #48 of 56

Dan, 

 

You're getting good deflection in a lot of those turns! It also looks like you're actively turning from the lower body in a lot of the turns. 

 

I wanted to get some assessment practice too (I'm on the level 3 course this week), so... maybe you could consider these questions: 

 

Do you feel like you're maintaining pressure throughout your short radius turn? Or do you feel like you are absorbing it with an abrupt flexion->extension during phase 1? 

 

Where do you feel your weight through the turn? Does the up-extension in phase 1 put you way over the tips? (I noticed the tails off the snow during some of the turns.) Where is your weight during phase 2 and 3?

post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyfleming View Post

 

So after a lot of work on...well pretty much everything...here I am now. I had the privilege to ski with 2 members of the csia 2011 Interski team over the weekend and they changed my skiing alot.

Any more thoughts would be appreciated!

Dan


Post #45 still applies.  Are those tongues padded? If they are, seems you need more still.  Pivot point has come back I'd say....but still needs more, a good 3-4 inches still.  

 

That should help smooth the finishes out, allowing you to carry more momentum turn to turn.

 

post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 That should help smooth the finishes out, allowing you to carry more momentum turn to turn.

 


      I agree. To me you have so much edging and pressure, particularly the downhill/outside foot, that you are almost stopping your own flow.

      

      Do you think you could achieve the same speed control and turn size via a more progressive steering and tipping of the feet,

     and less pressure through your heels?

 

      You might think of the "new turn" as actually starting before neutral/float.   What I mean is that you could think of it starting as soon as you start to lessen the angle of the skis, eventually allowing your CM to move over them.  

 

If you have any bit of an edge set in the bottom of the turn, it often comes along with your feet being too far out in front of your hips, then the momentum stops momentarily and a large movement is required to move into the new turn.

 

post #51 of 56

Seems like everyone nailed the symptoms.

The OP was asked to ski with more vertical shins and lo and behold - there it is!

Be interesting to see what the video would be if he focused on just keeping the femurs more vertical.  If it's the boots he'll never get there will he?

 

As an aside, as the new kid feel free to guide me right and Danny I'm sorry to use your vid as an MA trainng tool...

but it sure seems to me that the timing of the flexing and extending is wrong too.

Max flex of the legs is at 1/2 to 2/3 through the turn where I would think max extension should exist?

post #52 of 56

 

 

Hey, Danny--this thread seems to have a died a sudden death back in March. How has the rest of your season gone? I had meant to reply with another post a while back, but did not find the time.
 
Overall, reading back through this thread, it seems that three main issues have been brought up. One is your equipment and boot setup, particularly fore-aft. Two is your fore-aft pressure management, and what your intent is and has been in that respect. And third, more recently, is the timing of your edging and pressuring movements through the transition. 
 
Regarding the first two points of boot setup and fore-aft pressure management, it seems to me that there has been some confusion expressed regarding the purpose of fore-aft boot setup, the purpose of ankle flexion, and the relationship of both of these things to fore-aft balance and pressure on skis. I'll suggest something I've said before--that our skis do not care a whit how our boots are set up, or whether we flex our ankles or not. They respond purely to pressure--to where any pressure on them is focused fore and aft. Now some examiners and many instructors may well respond to "boot flex"--wanting a particular "look" in skiers and instructors--but skis do not! As far as ski performance is concerned, fore-aft setup and ankle flexion and extension are relevant only inasmuch as they affect your ability to regulate fore-aft pressure through the phases of the turn, in various conditions, and throughout your range of "vertical" (tall-short) movement. And they can have significant effects there. I have tried to illustrate and describe these effects with the diagram in my post #21, and the light-hearted animation in post #24.
 
But boot setup affects only how you must move and compensate to maintain fore-aft balance and to regulate pressure the way you want it forward and back. It does not, in itself, move you forward or back, as other joints--knees, hips, spine, arms--can also regulate fore-aft pressure and can, therefore, compensate for different boot setup. Optimal boot setup allows us to most efficiently control fore-aft balance through the full range of flexion and extension (tall-short), as suggested in the top row of my diagram in post #21.
 
How we use that control--whether set up optimally or not--is another story. I asked (post #36), "What is your belief--what do you want your skis to feel--as far as fore-aft pressure distribution is concerned, when you ski? What effects are you looking for?" Note that this question is "outcome-based," asking not about the movements you are trying to make or demonstrate, but about what the intended effects of those movements are, from the skis' point of view. I am still curious what your understanding is here. I am also curious what you understand the standards and expectations to be for your CSIA Level 3 exam--and whether they are movement-based or outcome-based, or both?
 
Regardless, these questions may be mostly moot by now, as I suspect that your exam has come and gone. You are probably looking more ahead to summer activities, and putting skiing thoughts aside for a while. But, as you were working hard and experimenting, you've kept us in suspense as to the outcome of your exploration. Not to mention the outcome of your exam! I hope you were successful, both in getting that pin, and in broadening your understanding and improving your skiing.
 
And regarding the third point--that of timing through the transition--for what it's worth, I agree with some of the comments of others. It appears to me, in all three of the clips you have posted, that you tend to be "heaviest" and with the highest edge angles near the very end of your turns, followed by a distinct "up" movement that lightens your skis as you initiate the new turn. The effect of this is to lose some of the energy at the end of the turn, rather than allowing your skis and body to move freely and unimpeded through the transition and into the new turn.
 
Perhaps this is your intent--a sensation you seek, or a belief based on official descriptions of the task you are performing. But I suspect that you can smooth out your transitions, carry more speed and momentum from turn to turn, and generally ski more efficiently and with less effort through the transitions, if you re-adjust the timing of your pressure control and edging movements. Let go of the old turn a little sooner. If you must extend in the transition (which appears to be doctrine for CSIA?), think of extending out of the old turn--being tallest at the end of the turn as you pass through "neutral"--rather than extending up and into the new turn. This will move your maximum pressure back up the hill and earlier in the turn, allowing a smoother and more progressive release of that pressure, and facilitating an effortless "float" through the transition and into the new turn.
 
The sensation will be a distinct feeling of your skis "playing catch" with your body--throwing you across the hill, then moving underneath and ahead of you to "catch" you on the other side, redirecting in the "control phase," and then throwing you back across the other way. It's a very obvious sensation--float--catch, redirect, throw--float--catch, redirect, throw--and one that I, at least, find quite addictive. I have tried to describe it with the animated video clip of the "medicine ball" in the "Is this aft?" thread (post #40). Here it is again:
 
 
Note the energy that Erik Schlopy and the other skiers in this clip carry through their transitions as they release the pressure as soon as their bodies have been redirected toward the next turn and float through the transition. Notice that any extension ("up"), when it occurs at all, comes as they exit the old turn, and it is part of the "throwing" of their bodies toward the new turn. They float weightlessly through "neutral" (the inflection point where the old turn ends and the new turn begins, and where the paths of the body and the feet cross), as their feet move underneath and ahead of their bodies to get into position for the "catch" that begins the pressure phase of the next turn.
 
The adjustment in timing from the turns in your clips will be very subtle. In fact, you do tend to allow your feet to move through the transition much better than many skiers and instructors do. But the effect and the difference in sensation will be dramatic--you'll know it for sure when you find it! 
 
And part of the success with this movement will come back to your beliefs and intent for fore-aft pressure, ankle flex, and boot flex. Many instructors--perhaps including some of your trainers (I do not know, but with their emphasis on opening your ankles, I suspect that this is not a problem), focus strongly on moving your "hips ahead of your feet" to start the turn, trying to "engage the tips" to initiate, often by flexing the ankles and boots forward through the transition. While your body does, indeed, need to move downhill of your feet in the transition, the thought of moving your "hips ahead of your feet" can easily translate into an entirely different movement from what I have described. To "catch" your body, your feet must get ahead of it, at least in the sense of across the hill. Clearly, your feet must move to the outside of the new turn from your body, which, of course, is "ahead of" you as you move across the hill in the transition.
 
So to accomplish these powerful, dynamic, effortless transitions, you must give yourself permission to make these critical movements. Is it possible that your extension into the new turn arises from an effort to move your body (center of mass, or perhaps hips) ahead of your feet? This thought would explain also the heavy pressure at the end of the old turn, which abruptly slows your feet and helps you get "ahead of" them again. 
 
Anyway, Danny, I hope you have had a fine season and that you found success in your exam. Thank you for sharing part of your journey with us. My ramblings here remain largely speculation, as you have not provided much insight into your intent, beyond exploring skiing with less pressure on your boot tongues and with more "open" ankles. So, if you're still around, how did it all come out? What changes have you made in your skiing? What revelations have you experienced? And--how did that exam go?
 
Best regards,
Bob

 

 

post #53 of 56
Thread Starter 

Hi again.

As far as the exam went, I didnt pass. I Passed the mogul component but the rest (short, advanced, intermediate) were just under. Im thankful I dont have to resit the teach ever again! I think the progress I have made in altering my range of motion really helped me in the bumps. Just a shame about the rest. Im not bitter, I understand where I`m below the standard and am focused for next season. And I'm happy with the effort I've put in and the rewards/changes I've got out of this season. I guess thats all that really matters.

I dont have a new video of my turns for you, sorry.

I really like the medicine ball analogy.

Im trying to stay low through the transition to allow a lateral extension. Not being so heavy on the tongues has really helped to smooth out the transition and to get the skis 'ahead' of my body. I do need to release my turn a little sooner though which will help smooth it out further.

Im battling with rotation now. At the very end of the transition/start of phase 2 my outside hip comes up and turns inside. It seems to be something I cant even correct at slow speeds. Im going to work on strength, and especially flexability over the summer to help release my femurs. Ive had no real training on this issue so I can just speculate, but personally I think its coming from the transition. Im not allowing my COM a free and smooth travel over my skis, possibly with a premature extension, so I haul my hips over and around to help get me into the new turn.

Many many thanks for all your time and efforts everyone, Im looking forward to next season already.

 

post #54 of 56

DF,

 

In the videos that you posted, I saw locked ankles, which is a common technical issue that a lot of L3 candidates need to work on.

 

If you've passed your mogul skiing, then that should be a good indication that you're getting the desired range of movement in the ankle joint, and have ankles/knees/hips working together.  It might take some more work to carry this over into the rest of your skiing, but you should have a better base to build on now.

 

Equipment is always a factor for consideration, but in your case I don't see your boots as the critical limiting factor.  I would work some more on technical development with your existing setup first.

 

post #55 of 56

Thanks for the reply, Danny! Sorry to hear that the exam didn't produce a pin for you this time, but it sounds like it was a worthwhile experience anyway. And you're that much closer to it.

 

I think that the self-assessment in your last post is very accurate, from what I've seen in your video clips. These are subtle things you're working on, but that's the nature of the finely tuned finesse that Full Certification involves. 

 

Have a great summer! Will you get up to Whistler/Blackcomb, or anywhere else for any skiing in the next few months?

 

Please keep in touch, and keep us posted. 

 

Best regards,

Bob Barnes

post #56 of 56

Hi Danny, 

 

They're running another exam this weekend at Whistler Blackcomb if you've made the improvements you need and feel ready to redo the ski portion. And if not this season, maybe I'll see you at the exam next season! (I'm planning on taking the exam by Jan. Or Feb. Hopefully!)

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