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Magic Words or Analogies - Page 2

post #31 of 48

Point well taken SSH.  Just as I would probably be a little uncomfortable telling a guy to stand like he's at a urinal.  "Squeeze your butt cheeks like your trying to hold a quarter in there" works well to, but it's certainly one that I use with great caution!biggrin.gif

post #32 of 48

Love it!

 

I read a Megan Harvey tip about this a few years ago... have any of you tried it with students? In the tip, she suggested putting a fist between your knees and squeezing it, noting the core muscle activation that occurs, then pay attention to that while skiing...

 

I have tried it myself, but haven't used it with students, yet.

post #33 of 48

The Yoga people talk about pelvic tilting or thrusting.  I think the Quarter Squeeze and other efforts to maintain stance tensions sometimes make us too stiff and inflexible and take away from other movements that make skiing more fluid.   

post #34 of 48

Yes, I agree Kneale that some of these tips can make a person ski a little too stiff, but sometimes they do finally "get it" when you ask them to take a couple of runs in these positions and just try to feel where they're at on their skis and how it feels and if they notice any changes in their skiing as a result of them.  I figure it's better to over exaggerate something with the hopes that they will maintain some of the skills that we were working on once I leave and they go free skiing on their own.

 

I've also heard of the Yoga moves and the pelvic thrust move.  I've actually heard of an analogy for it but don't think I'd ever be able to use it in a lesson myself.redface.gif

post #35 of 48

At an ESA many years ago, an all-women group with a woman coach was talking about skiing bumps over lunch. I happened to join them for part of their lunch break, and they were discussing the visual their coach had given them to get them to perform rapid pelvic thrusts... something about a picket fence, as I recall...

 

eek.gif

post #36 of 48

I'm pretty sure that we're talking about the same analogy Steve! roflmao.gif

post #37 of 48

Neal, Core tension shouldn't be confused with excessive tension in the limbs, or the glutes. That's the biggest problem we see when suggesting a higher level of core tension. Snowmiser mentioned the age old attitude of exaggerating an idea to get a student to acheive the proper ROM, level of tension, etc. When it comes to core tension, this approach fails miserably for exactly the reason you mentioned. 

 

I subscribe to Katy and Megan's philosophy of a rock solid core anchoring our balancing activities. Pertubation training can be traced back to developing and holding more core tension while not holding excessive tension in the rest of the body. It's also congruent with the idea of the entire body having a role in balance. When it comes to skiing there are no free rides for any part of the body.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 2/10/11 at 4:00pm
post #38 of 48

I've heard women's groups talk about "push the bush", but I don't get the picket fence reference.

 

JASP, I don't think of glute and pelvic tensions as part of core tension.  I think of those as externals, similar to doing things like raising toes to the tops of the boots or holding hands out Frenkenstein style, etc.  Those muscle tensions limit flexibility and relaxation.

post #39 of 48

I have a semi-regular student who is an Event rider (equestrian). Now I haven't ridden a horse since I was at a dude ranch at age 14 or so, but my wife coaches dressage, so I see a lot of it. Anyway... the other day, I was teaching her how to ski "half-pass" which worked perfectly for her and was amusing for all.

post #40 of 48

Quite possibly the best analogy I've heard. Will have to use it sparingly, but a definite addition to my bag of tricks.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

We talk among ourselves about the difference between Shi*ing turns and Fuc*ing them.  You can get into real trouble using this analogy with the wrong student.  Although, I hear, it has been known to work very well and get some people laughing.
 

post #41 of 48

Exactly Neal! I was commenting only because I saw the higher core tension idea morphing into the squeeze the quarter idea. Pelvic thrusts and push the bush are contrived ways to get the hips and the core to move into the new turn. From a biomechanical perspective tilting the pelvis too much in any direction changes the geometry and alignment of the legs and feet. So we need to be careful with the idea of that move offering any signifigant help to most of our students. We also need to be sensitive to the idea of purposeful misalignment in the sacro lumbar spine and how that may create an unequal load on the discs of the lower spine. I've seen more than one lower spine problem occur from this type of advice.

 

The best advice I've ever heard about this is from a friend who is a world famous back surgeon and one of the founders of the Colorado Doctor's patrol, He used to ask the following question, "Would you walk five miles holding your spine in one of these contrived positions? If not, why in the world would you want to spend the day skiing in that position? Good balance comes from good posture and better back health comes from better posture."

 

If a student is doing toilet turns (sticking their butt out) get them to stand up, don't tell them to tuck their tail and roll their back like a scared dog. That being said, what other means do we have to get a person to stop doing toilet turns? How can we get them to move their body into the new turn more effectively? How can we teach them to move instinctively with the skis and to seek good balance throughout their turns?

 

Why not return to the simple basics? Thousand step turns, skating across the flats, uphill herringbones, and transition moves like side slips. All of these include a fairly upright stance and a wider RoM that facilitates our projecting the body (not just the pelvis) into the new turn without any of the long term consequences of poor posture. I know this advice is devoid of snappy catch phrases and so called "magic" but the best magicians will tell you their craft has a very strong basis in basic fundamental physical laws. Straying too far from those only inhibits higher levels of performance. Same goes for skiing

 

So to be clear the only magic is in how well you communicate with your students. Since no two students are carbon copies, we cannot expect one magic word to work equally well for everyone.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 2/11/11 at 4:00pm
post #42 of 48
Thread Starter 

I agree there is no one magic word that works for everyone.  I'm a fanatic for teaching good basic skills, especially to never evers.  I also encourage people to stay on lower terrain longer to help ingrain good movement patterns before going up the hill.  If they learn the skills there then later instructors do not have to help them break bad habits before helping them to advance in their skills.

 

As for the magic word idea, the purpose of this tread is to collect a bunch of good ideas and thoughts.  This is to help others increase the size of their toolkit, to encourage lateral thinking, and to help people think outside the box when working with students.  As part of the PSIA-E Level II exam you are given a random student profile; this student is a stockbroker, this student is an airline pilot, the kid is a football player, etc.  Then you are given a random slip containing what they want to learn; he wants to get more parallel, he's a never ever, he wants to ski in bumps, etc.  You then teach the student.  One of the tasks is to use transference with appropriate analogies to help get points across.  It's a great task that many find challenging.  I've used this type of teaching for many years and find it works.

 

I've got a good sized toolkit as is.  However, I'm always looking to refine my skills as a teacher and mentor.  No matter how good you are, you can always improve.  If you rest you rust!

post #43 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square View Post

 this student is an airline pilot,


I've had quite a few of these guys. Love 'em. "Don't use so much rudder".

post #44 of 48

Nicely said T Square! I agree that a particular phrase might trigger some folks to actually start thinking about how they present an idea. Sadly, there are a whole lot of folks who will never see this idea as an opportunity to work on becoming better communicators, all they want are short cuts. Then they go out armed with these new phrases and misuse them and confuse more people than they help.

post #45 of 48

Lemme see...

 

"If you're not turning, go faster."

 

"Look for the white, don't look for the green." (Works great in the gates, too).

 

"Don't try to turn the skis, make the skis turn you."

 

There's more, I just can't remember it right now...

 

biggrin.gif

post #46 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

....I agree that a particular phrase might trigger some folks to actually start thinking about how they present an idea. Sadly, there are a whole lot of folks who will never see this idea as an opportunity to work on becoming better communicators, all they want are short cuts. Then they go out armed with these new phrases and misuse them and confuse more people than they help.


Oh Gawd! Sadly what you say is too true.

 

I always remember the worst instructor is normally someone with a new pin.  They have all that knowledge and are looking for some poor sucker to do a complete data dump on.

 

 

I was out working with a student, private lesson, and her mother, who is also an instructor, came along to see how I teach.  (She's a great gal and kept her mouth shut and did not butt in on the teaching.)  I gave her some teaching hints and ideas as we went along.  However, I was concentrating on only one main idea during the lesson with her daughter.  When we got done I asked the mother, "What did you learn."  Her answer was pure gold, "I have to do more of less during a lesson."  She really got it.

post #47 of 48

Yup. I remember a clinic where a jumping wedge was being used to focus on balance and disciplined foot to foot weight distribution. I saw so many newbie coached out on the hill for the next few weeks making theitr students do the hops. I magine how worn out those folks were at the end of the day.

nonono2.gif

post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Yup. I remember a clinic where a jumping wedge was being used to focus on balance and disciplined foot to foot weight distribution. I saw so many newbie coached out on the hill for the next few weeks making theitr students do the hops. I magine how worn out those folks were at the end of the day.

nonono2.gif


This is one of my favorite tricks, because I discovered it on my own (no, I don't claim ownership - it's just that nobody showed it to me).  When it works, it can be very effective.  When it doesn't - oh, well, come up with another one.  I have yet to learn a trick that works 100% of the time.  

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