2012 Fischer Vacuum Ski Boot: A Game Changer - Page 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexzn 

Yeah, and they will do it with the same success rate as they do now selling skis to the masses .  Technology replacing experience and professionalism is a well-perpetuated myth,  and we have been through this cycle many times.  Latest example: rockered skis remove the need for good technique in soft snow.  I think so far ski technique is alive and well.  

Who needs technique when you can make it down on a wide bananna?

What's the technique on the moon? I doubt the Fischer boots would work since it's 250 degrees F in the sun.

Skiing the Mountains of the Moon (2008) Is Jack Schmitt really skiing on the moon? We can see he is turning his upper body and knees and leaning as we do down here on earth. Let's listen to the downlink conversation back in December of 1972: Jack at 167:07:20: "Too bad I don't have my skis". Jack at 167:07:39: "Shhh...Shhh...Shhh...Whoo!... Can't keep my edges...Shhhh...Shhhoomp...Little hard to get a good hip rotation". It was fun to watch him on their downlink television because Jack used all the best techniques. He unloaded his boots and moved his body as a veteran skier would, but he didn't seem to slide across the surface much on his rubber-soled moon boots. I asked him about this when I was painting this motif and he said, "Future moon skiers would be wise to strap some teflon skis over their moon boots". Harrison "Jack" Schmitt was often affectionately referred to as "Dr. Rock" by his Apollo 17 crewmates Gene Cernan, and Ron Evans. Dr. Rock was a highly skilled and dedicated professional geologist with a doctorate from Harvard. NASA sent him to Air Force flight training and he became an excellent pilot. All the rest of us who walked on the moon were professional test pilots that NASA trained to be geologists. In my opinion Jack was a great astronaut. His superior performance as the lunar module pilot of Apollo 17 may have proven that it is just as effective to make a competent pilot out of a skilled geologist as to train a skilled pilot to become a competent geologist.

Fischer have announced the new "POP UP-ROLL UP" version for next year (joke) 

If there was ever any doubt we've tested and played with this stuff, I hope this goes somewhere.

Amusing as this was, we were testing the thermo memory of the plastics. Taking it to this extreme we will see over the next week how and if the boot returns to it's original memory shape. "Pop UP!"

What was your conclusion, other than that pair is gonna end up on Craig's List with a very fuzzy picture?

Simple really the people doing this process should use hotter ovens, but then they wouldn't have had to buy the Fischer one, ergo.................

Well, if you're gonna get a vacuum, and want a good fit, and a vacuum is a vacuum, is there any reason somebody with wide feet shouldn't go with the 95mm versions?

game changer...... not sure great technology, sure.... but having followed the 36 pages of this there are a few conclusions that can be reached, having spoken to dealers who have sold it well and others where it has sat on the rack i really don't know what to think, i know we will not stock the product next season, not enough space in the UK for more machines even though i have had a client call up fisher asking if they would supply us as he wants to buy a pair of them but from us only????

one thing that has become clear is that this boot is great for the right foot but it doesn't fit everyone, the success stories have probably come form times when the fitter has selected the boot for an ideal foot, the failures may have been form where there boot was requested by the client and was not ideal in shape

sure the boot deforms but it cannot go as far as some people expect it to, the plastic cannot simply disappear to make it fit round a super skinny foot and likewise cannot stretch around a big wide high volume foot

boot fitters will not go out of business because of this, as szk quite rightly said every other boot manufacturer would go out of business first or come up with something equal or better to the vac boot, when they do the stores that don't stock fisher will do done with another brand and so the cycle continues

did anyone ever think back to how this whole thing works, all the good ideas have already been had they are just being had again at new times

besides for one final time just because it is called the vacuum boot doesn't mean it is a vacuum process IT IS A PRESSURE FIT NOT A VACUUM!!!

Did you like our work Charlie? The plastic does deform, at a high temp, but then we're sure it will crack in the cold. So we'll stick to 80° and the plastic will creep back. 

Our conclusion, as we always need one, Fischer have tried to buy "reputable" bootfitters credibility. And it's almost worked. The problem now is how they go into the bigger super stores. You don't need eyes to see, you need Vision.

Still don't believe the public race version is treated the same as the Racers using the product, been told not, and so. blah, blah, blah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMALLZOOKEEPER 

Fischer have announced the new "POP UP-ROLL UP" version for next year (joke)

 

 

If there was ever any doubt we've tested and played with this stuff, I hope this goes somewhere.

Amusing as this was, we were testing the thermo memory of the plastics. Taking it to this extreme we will see over the next week how and if the boot returns to it's original memory shape. "Pop UP!"

...

fun? funny?  not from a supposed Pro...

coming from a pro, this is juvenile

your ongoing vendetta against Fischer Vacs might seem almost funny

not that fischer needs vindication, boots on the hill seem to be doin that...

if this was you doin the same with and about ANY other product, I'd feel the same.

I used to run into dealers like you all too often - a sad lot - talkin down whatever they don;t carry

good thing most dealers do a good job standing behind and selling to what they do inventory

business that tough in France ?

you need to move on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexzn 

Yes, there is.  You may not have enough overlap for a good seal if your foot is really wide... YMMV. 
 

 

Good to know

Quote:

Originally Posted by UGASkiDawg 

I spent a small fortune today putting Zipfit liners in my VAC 130's in a final attempt to make the boot usable.  If it doesn't work (And I won't know till I ski them) I will be selling the shells and and original liners on ebay and complaining loudly to Fische and badmouthing the product everywhere I can.  Regardless of whether the Zipfits work or not I am very unhappy with Fischer products and don't plan to buy another one in my lifetime at this point.  I expected possible problems with a new boot but the problem I didn't expect was that it wouldn't fit worth a damn without a super expensive third party liner.  

For what they cost, the results should be guaranteed. Reading the initial reviews, I was considering them at the beginning of the season. I'm glad I held off.

It's not surprising they had some bugs in their first year of production. But, in cases like yours, where the problems couldn't be resolved, The dealer should be able to take them back and be reimbursed by Fischer.

Time for a "Time out" enjoy your cup o tea!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYSVn9UPP6U

Quote:

Originally Posted by DropKickMurphy 


But the whole purpose was to get a perfect fit for hard to fit feet. Those with the "right foot" can find a great boot that fits them off-the-shelf for half the price of the Fischers.

 

yes the whole purpose was to do that, and it doesn't seem to have delivered does it

For those who missed the capitalized word JOKE in Smallzookeeper's post, I'm here to point it out to you.

36 pages on a thread about a boot!  sheesh!

I'm still awaiting with baited breath the outcome of this critically important experiment.  SZK, is it true that Fischers can intermarry with a Garmont? 

For those looking, the serious Fischer Vacuum thread is here.

But this thread was 'Epic'!

Why was this moved to Apres?  SZK is a real accomplished boot fitter who has an opposing

opinion to how this thread started.

I think you are seeking to squelch any dissenting opinions about a product that is pushed by

owners of this forum.

That's pretty weak.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea is awesome, and will hopefully be a "game changer", but can't adults

have a real, sometimes heated, discussion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moreoutdoor 

 

...

fun? funny?  not from a supposed Pro...

coming from a pro, this is juvenile

your ongoing vendetta against Fischer Vacs might seem almost funny

not that fischer needs vindication, boots on the hill seem to be doin that...

if this was you doin the same with and about ANY other product, I'd feel the same.

I used to run into dealers like you all too often - a sad lot - talkin down whatever they don;t carry

good thing most dealers do a good job standing behind and selling to what they do inventory

business that tough in France ?

you need to move on...

I think its great that a retailer is willing to do extreme testing on product no matter their motivations.  Doubt that the boots were free, and even if they were, szk could have ebayed them for $ towards the bottom line. I also would not be surprized if the fischer r&d department has not done similar as the mindset for r&d tends to be 'outside the box'.

 SZK, from a r&d perspective I'd like to see it sit a lot longer than a week to see how much they creep back.  I'd then recook them and see how they rebound. Then cook again for a fit on a problematic non fischer foot (eg wide forefoot, w high arch, w narrow heel, w big ankle bones, w small leg shaft)-cook one at fischer rec. temp. and time and other til its super soft and compare fits using same forming pressure. 

Next recook test shell for problematic wide forefoot and narrow neel/ leg combo, and do in 2 stages.  First at lower pressure to allow for creating toe space without using toes as battering ram (which I can't see helping foot structure alignment) to counter the usual high preasure for narrow heels, next try to reheat rear of shell only (doubt if this can be done in oven even if using foil and ice packs. Probably need to boil -suspend shell to keep toe out and maybe ice pack toe as well) and redo vac at very high preasure with the cold preformed forefoot. Compare fit to traditionally vac shell.

When finished with all the fit testing you want to do,destructive test them when freezing (flex, impact) compared to the un-extreme heated mating shell and a typical hi-perf standard shell, and do it all in a simple reproduceable quantifiable manner.  Could give a different set of fitting possibilities depending on results from all this. 

Thankyou, it is really that which we are getting at, thi time around it was Fischer, we do this to all ne "technologies" we like to quaestion and "myth bust" if it then stands up we'll sell it in spades with the confidence needed to do such innovations justice. We can only draw two conclusions regards Fischer's process, either it doesn't work, or the "chosen" few aren't quite what we are lead to believe they are. Either way it's not been 100% successful. Given the randomness of both the success and failure of the product, i'd suggest the later. I hope that pleases the Fischer Fanboys.

I don't think it is the "randomness of success". I think that most of the bad fits have come from the inexperience of the boot fitters with a new technology. Make sure the boot is heated enough and the foot is padded enough (ESPECIALLY  the toe box), with the right pressure, and you should get a good fit. I have a very high instep, narrow heel, 101mm toe width, with alignment issues, and my B/W 130's are spot on after two fittings. I strongly agree with Moreoutdoor, SZK, you've made your point "time to move on".

Mr PUD, please re read my post, it's exactly the point I made. Cheers, XX

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmkmqYEarw

Quote:

Originally Posted by supergaper 

I cant see how the Soma stance would be adjusted by the molding- just look at how the heel and toe

line up with the lugs.

By having the foot *not quite aligned* with the heel and toe centers of the boot and then shrinking the plastic down to preserve that alignment.