EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › What attributes make a ski better in crud?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What attributes make a ski better in crud?

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

I'm curious about this.

 

First, my definition of crud is "Rocky Mountain Crud." To me, this is snow that fell as powder, but you are now skiing on it at 2-3:00 in the afternoon. It has been pushed and packed into piles of inconsistent firmness, has been sitting in the sun and getting wetter, and while generally soft, lacks any real consistency to how it will ski.

 

I've been skiing since the early-mid 80's, and in that time, I've found that just about any ski will be fun when skied in nice, light, untracked pow, with the main difference being how much the ski will float.

 

However, it seems crud (in my opinion) is what sets apart good powder oriented skis off from bad ones.

 

When I got my first dedicated powder ski a few years back, my experience in skiing crud turned around 180*. Before, when running hard snow and/or all mountain skis, when the fresh stuff got tracked out, I'd stick to the groomers for most of the afternoon, because when skiing crud, the skis would just get pushed around too much.

 

So, when I got my first set of dedicated powder skis (Atomic Sugar Daddies, 99 waist), suddenly it was a new world. They track cleanly through crud, they don't get pushed around, and they make skiing deep snow a joy from open to close.

 

Problem is, my Sugar Daddies are running out of tunable edge, so I need a new ski.  Problem is, I'm not sure what attrributes of the Daddies cause them to be pow friendly, although I assume it has to be a combination of having the width to float and the beefiness to not get pushed off.

 

So what do you look for in a crud ski?

post #2 of 21

Long length

Long radius

Massive

Moderately stiff.

post #3 of 21

"Runing out of tunable edge"?

 

I can see maybe tuning a pair of race skis to death, but I haven't actually sharpened the edges on any of my skis in over two years.

 

Buy another pair of SDs off Ebay/TGR/CL, get them tuned ONCE, then leave them alone except for waxing, repair of really bad gouges/core shots and de-burring.

post #4 of 21

For the most part, I think its the skier, not the ski in crud. Variable conditions are just that variable, so you want  a ski that is versatile and can work well in just about any conditions. Just get a ski you like that works with your style and give appropriate feedback. No ski will transiton seamlessly from one condition to the next with out a pilot who knows what he is doing.

So the question is do you want a heavy beefy ski to blast through anything in your path? Do you want a very damp ski that ignores the terrain? Do you want a ski that gives you feedback on what the snow is like under your skis so you can ski mmore by feel? Do you want a wider ski that can float over the chunder? Do you want a light and more energtic ski to pop you from turn to turn? Just get what you like. 

post #5 of 21

My preference in a crud ski is my preference in my daily driver. It is not the same as what I want from my powder ski. This based on a three ski quiver.

crud: 98mm waist, medium to stiff flex, metal and rubber for weight and dampening, tip design that drives and punches through. (Nothing that makes it ride up and over; nothing that makes it react hyper to variable snow)

Tromano's options: dampness that ignores variable.

As to what the skier does:  look far ahead, clear through all the chunks and chunder, has to think ahead to the next turns, and be committed  ahead with a solid stance and a strong mind about driving through and past it all.

post #6 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

For the most part, I think its the skier, not the ski in crud. Variable conditions are just that variable, so you want  a ski that is versatile and can work well in just about any conditions. Just get a ski you like that works with your style and give appropriate feedback. No ski will transiton seamlessly from one condition to the next with out a pilot who knows what he is doing.

 


+1 Bring the ski that is most appropriate for the morning conditions then adjust during the day as the conditions change. Learn to ski crud better, It is a challenge but easy to master especially with todays wider shaped twin tipped rockered wonder skis. Remember us old timers use to ski crud (or anything) on skinny long sticks. You have to ski crud loose, with either leg ready to absorb and adjust as you hit the piles of snow. Stay centered on top of your ski, not on your tails. If you can ski bumps well you should have no probelm with crud.

Good luck,

Rick G
post #7 of 21
Thread Starter 

I reallty don't have problems skiing crud. These days, I love it.

 

I just want to know what to look for in my next set of skis to get similar performance in the cut up stuff.

post #8 of 21

My $.02

 

Damp - a ski with a lot of "pop" will get bounced around in the crud.  A damp ski goes right through it.

 

Massive - the more mass you have down there, the more the momentum will carry you through the irregularities.  I like demo bindings for this reason - they're heavier.  A lightweight nimble ski won't power through the crud like a heavy ski.

 

Stiff, but not too stiff - you want the tip to be soft enough to absorb some of the impact when you hit a pile, but not so soft that it gets deflected and feels out of control.  

 

I had an epiphany about 5 years ago skiing cut up crud in the afternoon on a pair of lightweight on-piste carvers (Dynastar Omecarve 8) - I was getting bounced around all over the place, it felt like I was skiing over speed bumps everywhere I went.  On a whim, I switched out to my old skis (Volkl P50) - a much damper ski with a longer turn radius.  The difference was astounding - it felt like they had run a groomer over the hill.  The ski just cut through the lumps like they weren't there.  So, it does depend on the ski somewhat.  Some skis are just not very good in crud.

post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post

My $.02

 

Damp - a ski with a lot of "pop" will get bounced around in the crud.  A damp ski goes right through it.

 

Massive - the more mass you have down there, the more the momentum will carry you through the irregularities.  I like demo bindings for this reason - they're heavier.  A lightweight nimble ski won't power through the crud like a heavy ski.

 

Stiff, but not too stiff - you want the tip to be soft enough to absorb some of the impact when you hit a pile, but not so soft that it gets deflected and feels out of control.  

 

I had an epiphany about 5 years ago skiing cut up crud in the afternoon on a pair of lightweight on-piste carvers (Dynastar Omecarve 8) - I was getting bounced around all over the place, it felt like I was skiing over speed bumps everywhere I went.  On a whim, I switched out to my old skis (Volkl P50) - a much damper ski with a longer turn radius.  The difference was astounding - it felt like they had run a groomer over the hill.  The ski just cut through the lumps like they weren't there.  So, it does depend on the ski somewhat.  Some skis are just not very good in crud.

I think you're oversimplifying this. There are a myriad of other factors. A ski certainly still can be poppy, and lay waste to crud. Flex patterns, shapes, and materials can greatly effect how a ski behaves in the crud.
 

post #10 of 21

Crud isn't easy as it requires you to anticipate where you need to power the skis through the snow. Wimpy, floppy skis (like many powder skis) have little chance to plow through the snow. Mass helps as the momentum of the ski aids in powering through rather than bouncing off the snow. Narrower skis (not just the waist, but at the tip and tail as well) will slice through the snow more easily than a wider ski as wider skis will want to float up over the crud.

 

It does boil down mostly to the skier, though. You can't let the snow push your skis around so you have to be strong, using core strength, to maintain the direction you want you skis to take. You have to anticipate what the snow is going to try to do to your skis. I try to turn from crud pile to crud pile. That way all my turns are in snow that reacts similarly. Plus my skis are on edge in the piles, making the slice through the crud rather than trying to ride over it.

post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post


I think you're oversimplifying this.


I think you're right. (c:

post #12 of 21

Good skiers make skiing look easy and they make it look good, wherever on whatever ski.  I think we have way too many choices, don't get me wrong It's fun and I am much as a gear head as the next guy.  I like to try new stuff but I still have kept it down to 2 pairs of skis, they ain't cheap ya know.  So I agree when said it's the skier and then a lot of other things need to be taken into account.  I look at skiing kind of like golf, you need to be able swing well first.  So again with all those choices in mind and if we want to bring a crud ski to the mountain, I would like something damp, a little heavy and a llittle stiffer.  I've a liked a lot of different skis but I haven't replaced my Mantra's as my daily ski (yeah some are better at this, some that, a few not as good here or there and on and on...I just don't want to have to think about it too much), powder doesn't last long and the crud arrives quickly.  Ski the crud fast with strength, good form and proper balance...Charge!

post #13 of 21

Take this for what it is, a random comment, but I have had problems with my downhill ski rattling off my boot at 40mph+ through spring crud. So if you go fast, binding selection might be important too. They were Markers, but I also didn't have the DIN above my recommended rating of 8 (165, 305mm, III+). This year I've bumped it to 10.

 

Low sidecut, stiff with maybe a slightly softer tip, sharknose tip, damp. Thats what I look for in a crud ski. Also, it needs some width, trying out 100mm this year. I think a smaller width (78mm) played a part in the downhill ski rattling off - too much boot drag/boot out? A little bit of tip rocker would be nice too, just to avoid jamming it - probably could go without the softer tip if it has some tip rocker?

post #14 of 21

Those IM103s I sold you are battleships in the crud. 40mph is really just starting to get into their fun zone.

post #15 of 21

There are some inaccurate statements floating around here. One attribute that has no benefit in crud must be twin tips. th_dunno-1[1].gif yes, old timers used to ski crud on their Rossi ST Comps, but only good skiers could do it, unlike today. And I have to say that many bump skiers are crappy crud skiers, I see no connection whatsoever between the two skills, maybe the opposite. On the other hand, most good crud skiers are not going to have a problem with bumps, just a theory, because crud skiing is primarily possessing good basic all around skills.

 

Brian, I'm taking it as pretty random as it seems not completely thought out yet. there must be 5 contradictions. Ec, would you say that "pop" is primarily in the ski's tail ? Therefore, the tip design is still not specified as per a ski with "pop". I would say that the worst crud ski I ever demoed was the Volkl 6 Star, a "poppy" (sic) ski. But I would say that the problem lay with the lively, hooky tip design.

post #16 of 21


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post

My $.02

 

Damp - a ski with a lot of "pop" will get bounced around in the crud.  A damp ski goes right through it.

 

Massive - the more mass you have down there, the more the momentum will carry you through the irregularities.  I like demo bindings for this reason - they're heavier.  A lightweight nimble ski won't power through the crud like a heavy ski.

 

Stiff, but not too stiff - you want the tip to be soft enough to absorb some of the impact when you hit a pile, but not so soft that it gets deflected and feels out of control.  

 

I had an epiphany about 5 years ago skiing cut up crud in the afternoon on a pair of lightweight on-piste carvers (Dynastar Omecarve 8) - I was getting bounced around all over the place, it felt like I was skiing over speed bumps everywhere I went.  On a whim, I switched out to my old skis (Volkl P50) - a much damper ski with a longer turn radius.  The difference was astounding - it felt like they had run a groomer over the hill.  The ski just cut through the lumps like they weren't there.  So, it does depend on the ski somewhat.  Some skis are just not very good in crud.

 

Obviously light and popy, shapely carvers like the omecarves will stink in crud. But once you get into the all mountain / daily driver class of skis, almost any ski is going to be pretty good in crud. Even those that are more shapely and lively. There are skis that are very optimized for crud (head im88, dynastar LP, mythic, IM03), but in order to be that good in crud, I think that these skis are overly stiff, very straight, too heavy, very damp, not very forgiving and are not the most versatile for all mountain skiing. If that's what you want then great.

 

But! Plenty of other daily drivers are nearly as good while providing a more versatile, forgiving, user friendly, lively and fun ski. The sultan 85 is a very nice crud ski but its got some life and pop to it. And dynastar's trouble line has a stiffer tip for plowing crud and a medium or softer tail for pop and energy.

 

I just think the OP would might want to consider (rather than get the heaviest burliest crud battleship) finding a daily driver that he likes and the crud performance will almost certainly be good enough. Plenty of reviews of this sort of ski on here: crazy 88s, 98s, etc...

post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
To me, this is snow that fell as powder, but you are now skiing on it at 2-3:00 in the afternoon. It has been pushed and packed into piles of inconsistent firmness, has been sitting in the sun and getting wetter, and while generally soft, lacks any real consistency to how it will ski.

 


This isn't crud, it's crumbly powder and chop. Crud makes a slurping sound as it smacks into your skis, just before it eats them. But I digress. 

 

Your answer is one word: Mass. Heavier skis handle crud better. Flex pattern and shovel shape help, but it gets down to whether the ski has enough inertia to resist being deviated by snow it hits. The end. 

post #18 of 21

Ghost had it mostly right: longer, heavier, AND DAMPER skis with less side cut are better in crud. They ought to be softer than you'd want on piste, but stiffer than you'd want in powder.  And crud is the only thing we have in excess around here in the PNW.

post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

Those IM103s I sold you are battleships in the crud. 40mph is really just starting to get into their fun zone.

So I've noticed biggrin.gif. We've had a ton of powder days this year, so they haven't gotten a lot of use, but I've definitely had fun on them during 3 days of crud skiing this year. Unless I can find someone to hit Vail sidecountry with this weekend, I'll be on them at Breck, ripping the upper mountain. Should get warm enough to make for some nice crud skiing.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

Brian, I'm taking it as pretty random as it seems not completely thought out yet. there must be 5 contradictions. Ec, would you say that "pop" is primarily in the ski's tail ? Therefore, the tip design is still not specified as per a ski with "pop". I would say that the worst crud ski I ever demoed was the Volkl 6 Star, a "poppy" (sic) ski. But I would say that the problem lay with the lively, hooky tip design.

My comment about the downhill ski rattling off is a random one - it's happened a few times and I'm still trying to nail down why. However, my comments about what skis I like in crud is certainly not random and is based on my experiences. I do know what works (for me).
 

post #20 of 21

I'm starting to think that what I think is great in crud may not be ideal for someone else. I'm 5 foot 9 inches. 220 pounds, and have tree trunks for legs. I guess I bring a lot of my own mass. I may have my own definition of "pop" also. Maybe lively is a better word.

post #21 of 21


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

I'm starting to think that what I think is great in crud may not be ideal for someone else. I'm 5 foot 9 inches. 220 pounds, and have tree trunks for legs. I guess I bring a lot of my own mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

This isn't crud, it's crumbly powder and chop. Crud makes a slurping sound as it smacks into your skis, just before it eats them.

 

 

Two points being made:

1) Most skiers are different from each other in many ways; i.e. I am 5'11" and 160# with bean poles for legs, I don't bring much mass.

2) There are actually variations in "crud" !!  Some is just cut up powder; some is sun baked/cut powder; some are big globs of cut up powder that has been baked and then set up.

 

IMOH, the best crud skis I have been on would be:

1) for crud that is cut-up heavy powder, I have had some great times on AC4/40/50s; however, if it is firm or set up much, these skis will toss me all over the place(same for Mantras.)

2) my old 177cm Atomic D$$$$$(R:EXs) 115-84-102 ski it all very, very, well, Hence, I use them for my primary randonee skis.

 

I would rather have a little narrower ski(80-95 mm) because I prefer to "go through" rather than over.

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › What attributes make a ski better in crud?