Transition and learn Parallel turns from Carving

Hey Tech the good news is if you really can carve your turns then you are making parallel turns already.

Where is your upper body facing, the direction the skis are going or down the fall line?

Are you able to change your turn radius by managing the pressure on your outside ski?

After a hard day on the slopes do you prefer a cold beer or a glass of wine?

How comfortable are you with flattening your skis and sideslipping down the fall line?

techlogic - you belong to the generation of skiers that whent straight to carving. I call that the lost generation. You hear all kind of talk about how people carve all their turns and how the same movements apply to carving as they do to regular parallel turning. You prove them all wrong. I thaught a young woman a few years ago to ski and after 1y of struggling she all of a sudden blew all away with blazing carving. But like you she could not ski basic parallel. I know exactly what the problem is. The problem is that when you carve the only thing you need to do is to tip your skis on edge and let the skis turn you. Not you turning the skis. Many people on this forum and elswhere would be ready to kill for such skills but the downside is that such skiing is very limiting. Like you have found out yourself. For narrow paths, steeps, bumps, offpist, powder, threes, slow skiing etc. you need to be able to "turn your skis".

Now we are getting into some very controverary terrain. IMO, and according to historical vintage traditional European beliefs, you need to initiate a so called skidding angle at the beginning of each turn. This means that insted of your skis tracking along their edges they skid/brush over the snow. The problem is how to achieve this skidding angle. Here I differ between two kind of turns: stand alone turns and linked turns. You could also divide them into long and short turns. The thing is that when you link turns you can use the rebound from previous turn and use the momentum to unweight your skis and pivot them a bit at transition so that they are skidding and not carving. Stand alone turns or long turns where you lost the momentum (gravity is constant) you need to resort to unweighting specific techiques. One would be to extend at transition thuss reducing the pressure under your skis when they are flat in transition and easy to pivto according to desired skidding angle. CSIA has some very good examples of this on their web sites. Do a search on youtube for CSIA parallel turns. Also, check out Ricks website www.yourskicoach.com with good articles and very important: video demonstrations of all techniques and on the fine art of steering. There are offcourse other good sites all over the net so do some searching.

Good luck.

TDK6

Tech,

A parallel turn is when the tips and tails maintain the same width between each ski at all points through the turn (that width can widen and narrow through the turn, but the distance between tips = distance between tails at all times). Although it is possible to carve a portion of a turn without parallel skis, If you try this, either your legs will split or cross. So in general, all carved turns are parallel turns. A parallel turn can be a carved turn (where the tail passes over exactly the same point where the tip traveled) or it can be a skidded turn (where the tail passes over a point outside of the turn where the tip passed). Unless you are skiing on (cough) firm snow, a carved turn will leave a pencil thin track in the snow while a skidded turn will leave a wider track in the snow.

The size of a carved turn is dependent on the dimensions of the ski. Althought it might seem that there is only 1 turn size possible for carved turns, that size can very a little depending on how much the ski bends during a turn. Other than that if you want to make turns shorter than the "1 size" (either shorter or longer), you need to steer the skis and cause skidding. Basically the idea is you need to force the tips and tails to travel on a different path than the carved turn arc. There are different ways to make this happen, but it's going to involve lowering the edge angle and applying lateral force to the skis. Some people say you can do this all through tipping movements, some people will tell you to turn your feet and some might tell you to do something weird like rotate your femur (i.e. turn the whole leg underneath your body vs just twisting your feet). If you've seen hockey a player stop on ice and can do the same thing on skis, you'll have figured out all you need to know to make skidded parallel turns. Ask your friends to show you.

techlogic - forgot to comment on the stance width issue. There is no reason why you could not carve with your feet glued together. Or make a basic parallel turn with your feet wide apart. But there are advantages and dissadvantages to both. Generally speaking a more narrow stance be it carving or skidded turns makes it easier to balance over the outside ski. With a wide stance you tend to lean on your inside ski. That can be a bad thing. A narrow stance is also more rigid. Easier to ski through varying and bad snow conditions. In old school powder or in bumps you should use a narrow stance.

You need to work on side slipping.

Find a steep slope and stop with your skis across the fall line perpendicular to the slope (as in a traverse).

First, dig your edges into the hill so you don't slip down the hill.

Then gradually tip you skis so they dig in less and they begin to slip down the hill, and you with them.

If you haven't done much of this, you will likely first find that the tips will want to slip down faster than the tails, and you move forwards across the slope as a result.

Dig in with the tips edges and release the heels (by shifting some weight forward, but you don't have to think about it; just try and not let the tips slip, but release the tails).

Practice until you can slip straight down the hill, or slip forwards as you go down or slip backwards as you go down.

Now all you have to do is allow you skis to slip sideways while turning.  It's the same difference: a little easing off on the edge angle with control of where your weight is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geoffda 

Actually, the problem is that he was NOT taught carving.  All he can do is park and ride.  If he had learned the correct movements for carving, he'd know how to use his skis and he'd know how to brush a turn.  I don't ever turn my skis, that is work!  I let my skis turn me and I work with gravity, not against it.  And I do that in all conditions using the same movements regardless of whether I'm edge-locked.  If I want to brush, I just tip less and never increase my tipping angles enough to edge lock.  Pretty simple.  Meanwhile, I still flex, counterbalance, counteract, hold my poles the same way, etc. as I do when making edge locked turns, sking bumps, powder, crud, ice, whatever.  And whatever kind of turn I'm making, when I'm doing it right, I look back and see two distinct tracks in the snow that show that the inside ski never skidded and washed out the tracks of the outside ski.  TDK6 says it's impossible, but tracks show otherwise. 

 

When you hear talk about "how people carve all of their turns and how the same movements apply", it is usually from some of the most well respected and credentialled coaches out there.  You know, former national team coaches, top-level developmental coaches that are stocking ski teams, people like that.  People whose understanding of skiing can actually be objectively verified by the fact that they are regularly producing skiers who can compete and win on the world stage.  People whose understanding of how skiing works is so crystal clear that they can convey a few simple principals to you and your skiing changes forever. 

 

Techlogic, if you want to start to learn how to ski (and eventually learn how to actually carve), do an internet search on "phantom move".  That will set you down the road to learning that skiing is like any other sport.  Mastery is simply a matter of learning a few simple, fundamental movements and then applying them.  There are many schools of thought out there on how skiing works, but in my experience, there a way of explaining skiing that is so simple, complete and brilliant that it makes it very difficult to take anyone who tries to explain skiing outside of that framework seriously.  Particularly when you see the kind of skiing that correct movements produce.  Search a little and you will find it.

Sorry gedoffa but I must dissagree with most of what you are saying here above. First of all the people that claim they carve all the time are not world class skiers. Mostly bad skiers I would say. Secondly we have a different definition to carving so any argument over carving between us both would be a never ending story. You for example do not call OP carving carving. You call it park and ride. I find that a bit snobbish. I bet if you asked Ted Ligerty he would not consider your skiing carving eather. Not a good definition to carving IMO. If its a certain skill level you are trying to achieve. But I see that you are a PMTS skier. You have your own definition to carving. So does the SVMM. Why not stick to the OP definition? However, you are the first person that actually know when to use a PM. You score pritty high PMTS points in my book. Good advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

You need to work on side slipping.

 

 

Here comes that same old advice again: pivot slips, the cure to perfect carving

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

You need to work on side slipping.

 

 

Here comes that same old advice again: pivot slips, the cure to perfect carving

Sorry, nothing about pivoting.  I had to post then edit, because my firefox wouldn't let me do much with the post window.

EDIT: Come to think of it, it's actually an anti-pivot slip.

The first guy in the video is doing tight, linked turn, no doubt about it.  I'd argue that the second guy isn't "carving" as much as doing wide radius turns using a very similar technique, at least for the first couple turns at the top.  In both cases you can clearly see the skidding at the outside of the turn and the unweighting for turn initiation.

Check out the guy here at about 0:42.  No skidding at all, no spray of snow, little active unweighting - mostly as knee angulation and leaning into the turn. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpleOZtz8aY&feature=related

Here's the point - if you're really doing what the second guy in your video is doing you can the first.  Carving is lazy skiing, you're letting the skis do the work.  Be 10x more aggressive and start the next turn much MUCH sooner than you're comfortable with.   Find a video on pole plants too, that's a huge part of the whole rhythm of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by techlogik 

 

 Quick edit:  This youtube video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67NUC0q9154&feature=related

 

What I want to do is from :07-:17, what I do is carving, :18-:30. If that helps anybody with suggestions!

 

So you can ski like the guy in the vid from .18-.30, but cant make a basic parallel turn???????????

Sorry, not possible.  The skills are too transferable; you are kinda saying you can run on a race track with the best of them, but cant walk along the beach.  That makes no sense.

My advice is you first of all need to understand where you are currently at.  Get some video of yourself (or even a few still pics), and just look at what you are really doing, feel free to post here if you like.  You cant possibly improve if you dont know where you are starting from.

SkiDude is right. Video or it didn't happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by techlogik 

I thank all of your for your responses that went into detail with useful info.

 

TDK6, you are probably the most correct of exactly what I go through and described/summarized what the situation is.  I will look up the videos and study those more.  Thank you, your words resonate soundly and clearly.  I watch my friends, they give some tips on keeping the feet close, and working on the slipping motion and body turn of the lower waist/legs on down.  I need to watch some closer videos again.  I use slips many times though throughout the day as I mention below to Ghost for my reply to him.  Starting/stopping, and other various times a slip is required to really get around on the slopes.  The issue is once moving down a run with all sorts of terrain, the crud, groomed and other various types, my ability to perform the proper parallel turn technique that looks correct, and link those turns with control of speed, turn radius and such I struggle with.  Again, I will look at those videos and then go out and practice.

 

geoffda, mmm....okay, if you say so.  Not sure what I am supposed to do with that.

 

Ghost, thanks for the reply.  But, I already am very proficient at side slipping.  I am very good with my feet close together and slipping from a start, going forward, at times going backwards down the hill, then slip with feet close together into my forward movement.  I really like the slipping movement, but not at high speeds!!!  Maybe this is my issues, the slipping movement while at higher speeds.  At high speeds, let me tilt my skis onto the edge and away I go, fun!  But this limits my enjoyment of the various parts of the mountain and terrain I can confidently go out onto.  From a slip start on a steep slope I then transition to a carving setup/turn, my feet legs drift apart and I do primarily a tilting onto the edges for a carving turn.  My turn radius is of course much larger than my friends who are parallel turning very tight, they control their speed well and the movement is much different then I of course execute.  My issue is staying with the slip movement, feet/skis close together, and being able to quickly, with proper form, make a parallel turn.

 

Let me look at those videos you all suggested, then if I have some more questions, I will post again.  I need to get on some longer flatter groomed runs where I can carry speed, yet have plenty of room to work on the movement.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Quick edit:  This youtube video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67NUC0q9154&feature=related

 

What I want to do is from :07-:17, what I do is carving, :18-:30. If that helps anybody with suggestions!

 

I believe you. I think that Helluva and Skidude missunderstood you a bit because Im sure you dont think you can ski as well as Paul Lorenz, merely just doing the same he is doing. Only he does it better . Its a question of carving vs skidded turns. Im delighted to hear that you are so well aware of your carving techniques limitations. Most people are not. Im tempted to say that as someone that can only carve you are the first person on this board to step forward and bring this thing up for discussion. This issue has been very much neglected. There is a whole new generation growing up with carving skis only tipping and turning.

Its correct that Paul is skidding his turns at 07-17 but he is also skidding his turns at 48-53. If we look closer, he is carving in two different ways. Short turns initiated with tipping of the lower legs, so called knee pointing or femure rotation, and long turns flexing his inside leg to create tipping. Or a combination of both. Depending on how square he stays to his skis. When he is skidding his turns they are only short. This kind of makes sence since when he is making long turns his short radius SL skis can carve the arc and when he is making short turns down the fall line and its too steep to carve that straight without accellerating too much he skids his turns. My bet is that you are turning using mostly flexing of the inside leg. And you stay very square to your skis. This is the total opposite of what you want to do. You want to keep facing down the fall line with your upper body and point your knees from side to side. If you take any of Pauls short carved turns you and focus your eyes on his hip socets you will see that he is rotating his feet back and forth left and right. Side to side. Try it on a very gentle slope. Then try to close your stance and insted of locking your edges you use the femure rotation of the legs to pivot the skis back and forth. But remember, you can only do this if you link your turns. Because you need to use the edge set from one turn to fuel the initiation of the next. Thats why there is so much snow spraying from Pauls skis in the lower part of the turn when he is skidding.

Yes, without a video we really cannot pinnpoint your issues dead on. Merely give you general advice. That can be totally wrong.

I'm on the boat of "If you can truly carve, then you can do a basic parallel turn".

Really carving requires good edge control and good balance movements.  Not to mention I assume if you can carve, you can also hockey stop.  The combination of carving technique and balance and a hockey stop gives you all the tools you need to do parallel skidded/scarved turns.

One thing I'd like to note about side-slipping is it's easy on a steep slope.  Try it on very flat a bunny hill.  If you can't side slip down a bunny hill with good constant speed and no jerky movements, then you probably can't really carve. 

The problem here is lack of video/pictures of the OP's skiing.  A lot of times, we think we're doing something with our bodies when in fact we're not.  I remember when I started skiing, by second year, I thought I was carving.  I thought I felt all the stuff I was suppose to feel and people around me told me I had good form.  Those that didn't know how to carve would say I was carving.  After getting better, I realized I was no where near being able to truly carve at that time.  This would go on for multiple years, where I think I'm carving cleanly, but I learn something new and realized I wasn't doing something right before.  When I finally saw a video of myself skiing, I was shocked I wasn't actually getting nearly as much edge angle as I thought and my skiing wasn't nearly as dynamic or aggressive as it felt.

I'm also a person who started on shaped skis, so I remember going through some of the same problems you describe.  I was performing what I thought were "carved turns" but I had trouble with short quick parallel skidded/scarved turns down the fall line.  It wasn't until I truly learned how to carve pretty decent (I can assume that now cause of race results), could I make very good controlled short parallel turns.

The point is, it's hard to be objective about your own skiing and describe how you ski based on what you "feel" while skiing.  This is especially the case for those without that many years of experience under their belt.  You really need a well-trained person that understands all the concepts of skiing to look at your skiing and make an objective analysis.

If you really want good advice, you need to provide videos of your skiing so that people can see exactly where you're coming from and what your strengths/weaknesses are.

majortato, good posting. And since you have had the same kind of experiances as the  OP he should be able to pick up valuable information from you. A video of the OP would be of much help. But it would also be of interest if the OP ever saw himself on video. That is an eye opener. We thing we do stuff we dont. I hosted a thread a long time ago named something like "pepole think they are carving but they dont". In that therad I claimed that people usually dont carve even if they are. Skiing behind and filming the tails of the skis or simply silming the tracks show the blue print to your skiing. I dont doubt that the OP can carve.

Please note that a skidded turn is no quicker than a carved turn.  You are right that at some point, the radius of the ski limits how small of an arc you can carve cleanly.  Letting the ski edges brush instead of rail allows smaller radius turns, and gives the impression of "quicker" turning.  In both cases, the skis still need to be on edge...it's all about how you manage the pressure when the skis on edge whether you are allowing it to skid or to carve.

Again, hard to say without video, but from what it sounds like, I think you need to work on your transition and earlier edge engagement.  A couple common problems include:

• too far backseat - this does not allow your tails to release and start the new turn.  You also need to actively be forward to engage the next turn early before the fall line.
• outside ski overloaded at the end of the turn.  Likely this is what you're experiencing as "carving".  The last phase of the turn (after the fall line), you are on high edge angle with snow and your ski is heavily pressured.  This causes the skis to rail and gives the sensation of carving.  This is a progression step towards really carving the whole turn.  The problem is you are balancing too much on the outside ski, so you can't release it fast enough to start the next turn.  You need to work to get your weight forward at start of turn and not hurry the initial phase of the turn.  Let the skis build up pressure and don't rush the movement.  Carving the top half of a turn is a difficult task and takes practice.  When skis are in fall-line, you should have maximum pressure on outside edge.  At this point, you should feel the skis shoot you across the hill.  It takes lots of practice to manage these forces  because you feel like the skis are gonna through you into the air across the hill and onto your butt.  After the fall line, your outside ski should start releasing and the inside ski needs to build pressure.  At the end of the turn, your weight is equally distributed on both feet instead of just the outside leg.  At this point, you can easily transition into the next turn.  Your edge angles should be dynamic throughout the turn, increasing, then decreasing.  Most people tend to throw their skis on edge and rush the first phase of the turn, which causes the forces to build up much later in the turn and hence an overloaded ski at the end of the turn.  The result is a locked edge where edge angle is highest at the end of the turn.

Once you have gotten the hang of getting your weight forward, a good transition, and dynamic ski edge angles, you should be able to easily manage the pressure on your ski edges.  You can then perform parallel turns that incorporate more active steering and skidding to control speed.  The turns will work the same way as truly carved turns.  The only difference is managing how much you let your edges brush across the snow.  The result is offensive "scarved" turns rather than the defensive quick hockey stop turns you see so often (a lot of beginners will think this is good skiing when in fact it is not).

Once again, pivot slips are a great drill to get a good feel for edge pressure management, transition, and active steering.  Work to perfect it on very flat terrain to gain better edge control.  Steeper terrain is easy to side slip on, but provides great practice for getting weight forward during transition.