or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Old School Approach to Great Skiing
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Old School Approach to Great Skiing - Page 4

post #91 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

Bob and Steve - great posts, I consider myself so fortunate to have access to the well thought out ideas and carefully written posts of people like the two of you share with us.

 

PSIA-E stresses "speed control through turn shape.'  I fully understand Bob's statements that we shouldn't think of turns for speed control and am trying to make these concepts work together.  I think I have but want confirmation of my understanding.

 

Speed control is accomplished through managing gravity.

 

The way to manage these gravitational forces is by directing your mass towards or away from the gravitational pull of the earth.

 

Turns are designed to direct your mass in your intended direction, both to manage gravity AND to get from point a to point b (and to enjoy the ride!)

 

Does this accurately describe your thinking on this subject?  


Mango,  I think Bob's mantra, "ski a slow enough line to control your speed and ski around that line as fast as you can"  this statement is the clearest description of what the intent is for me anyway!

 

"Speed control through turn shape" is not opposed to the offensive skiing intent at all, while turning to slow down is opposed.  

post #92 of 154

Hey, did someone say my name? I haven't been around here in a while--been traveling the world, seeking out my favorite conditions (ice), and having a great time. No, ladies, I'm not ready to settle down yet. Rust never sleeps.

 

Good to see you all!

 

What, you're looking for advice from me? Well, I've read over this thread (not easy for a tin man, you know), and I can see that my help is sorely needed. It seems that a lot of you guys try to make this so hard. It's unbelievable. Skiing is easy! (Especially compared to typing.) I've always been able to do it, from the very first time I tried, because I have never tried to hold back, make it hard, brake, or any of that stuff. I don't do anything at all. I can't! I go with the flow. I don't have doubts. And I don't have misunderstanding.

 

If you're trying to do anything, you're trying to do too much, and you're trying too hard. Let it happen! 

 

Weight transfer? You gotta be kidding. Why would I? HOW could I? Yes, of course, I do let the weight transfer to my outside ski when it wants to, but I don't do anything to make it happen. I just let it happen. And my skis certainly don't care which one I'm standing on.

 

I never push on a ski, but I certainly let my skis push on me. 

 

I don't care if my skis are parallel or not. They usually are, but sometimes they have a little wedge, and sometimes the tips come apart a little. I don't care--doesn't make any difference to me. 

 

All I do is let gravity and that other force--what is it? Centrifugal force, yes, that's it! I let gravity and centrifugal force pull me from side to side. As I cross over my skis, they release, and my new turn begins without me having to do anything. And my coaches say that I carve better turns than at least 98.1% of everyone else here!

 

Well, I've got turns to make. Nice chatting with you all. Plus, I saw a nice looking can opener in the bar last night, if you know what I mean....

 

Single!!

 

--PSIMAN!

 

PS--I know that some people think advice is worthless if you don't post video. I think that's kind of silly--what difference does it make? The truth is the truth. But I'll do it anyway:

 

 

Talk about credentials, though, how many of you have a SONG about you?

 

(written by Wear The Fox Hat, sung to the tune of Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds):

 

Skiing in Big Sky With PSIMAN!

 

The Barking Beartles
 
"Picture yourself making turns like a river, 
Or a mountain stream flowing down to Big Sky
You hear a clicking while you’re skiing slowly, 
A mechanical marvel goes by
Riding on edges like you’ve never seen, snow flying over his head
Look for the guy with a badge for his hips, and he’s gone
 
Skiing in Big Sky with PSIman, skiing in Big Sky with PSIman
 
Follow him down to Bridger Bowl Mountain, 
Where Rostad people all have a season pass
Everyone smiles as you ski in the powder, 
Then laughs when you fall on your ass
New skis and waxes, you’re begging for more, wanting to ski every day
You lean to far back, then your head’s in the pow, and you’re gone
 
 
Skiing in Big Sky with PSIman, skiing in Big Sky with PSIman
 
Picture yourself on a chair in the Huntley, 
With a large glass of porter, that look in your eye
You hear a clicking, he’s there with his turn-style, the mechanical marvel goes by..."
 
---
 
There can be no doubt about my credentials!
post #93 of 154
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

 

All of that said, I think that the sides are very well defined here, and I think that Bob's list of questions is the point of clarity. How we answer those questions defines our perspective (our "paradigm" for skiing and teaching it). I suspect that virtually every contributor to this thread would fall on one side while one would fall on the other. That fact alone raises some interesting questions.


Comparing our answeres show that we answered the same on every question. What whent wrong with your guessing here above?

post #94 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

"Speed control through turn shape" is not opposed to the offensive skiing intent at all, while turning to slow down is opposed.  


 

If one is exercising speed control through the shape of their turns, then they obviously ARE turning to slow down.  Your statement thus makes no sense to me, Bud.  

 

If a person is carving small radius across the falline turns down a black groomer, as opposed to large radius down the falline, no outside observer can read the mind of that skier to know if his/her turn shape choice is based on the "defensive intent" of turning to slow down, or the "offensive intent" of just wanting to enjoy the sensations associated with that particular shape turn.  However, the fact that most skiers who carve reduce the radius of their carved turns when they get on steeper terrain, or abandon carving altogether, gives you a pretty good clue the choice is usually based on a desire to slow down.

 

If turning to slow down is considered "defensive intent", then small radius carved turns (the ultimate of "skiing the slow line fast") can very easily represent "defensive intent" skiing.  

post #95 of 154

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

 

All of that said, I think that the sides are very well defined here, and I think that Bob's list of questions is the point of clarity. How we answer those questions defines our perspective (our "paradigm" for skiing and teaching it). I suspect that virtually every contributor to this thread would fall on one side while one would fall on the other. That fact alone raises some interesting questions.


Comparing our answeres show that we answered the same on every question. What whent wrong with your guessing here above?

Ah, but we didn't! The initial answers are the same (all false: they were trick questions), but the explanations are completely different.

post #96 of 154
Thread Starter 

Bringing the PSIA man into this discussion is what finally sends you guys over the edge. Not to mention the suggestion that Tanja is wedging in that picture! OMG!!!

 

Here is why. In skiing you need to differ between carving edge locked and skidded turns. Traditionally all turns were skidded up untill the snowboard came along and started to carve tight turns on groomers. Only way for a skier to achieve the same thing was to dump 205cm long pencil shaped skis and take up snowboarding. Then came the ski revolution. The carving ski. Shorter and with a narrow waist. Wide at the tip and the tail. Generally speaking that changed everything but we need to look at it in more detail in order to understand the true content of the carving revolution. The revolution was that we all of a sudden could carve clean edge locked carved turns at say a 12m radius only by tipping our skis. The drawback from an old school standpoint was that we were all of a sudden heavily dependent on the skis built in turn radius and the turning itself did not provide us with any speed controll. We had to depend on line selection. Check out the PSIA consept TGIF (Tips Go In First). Great consept. Anyway, the good news were that all traditional techniques could still be used. Wedging and parallel turning. Also, wedging and parallel turning became much easier due to the shorter ski length and the shape of the ski that made the new carving ski more turnier when skidded and brushed. Two major benefits. Possible to carve on groomers at moderate speeds and turnier when skidded brushed.

 

Now listen closely. Here comes the important part. When you are carving edge locked the only thing you need to do is to tip your skis on edge and they turn. Nothing else. This you can do a number of ways. You can for example do what the PSIA man is dooing. He is rotating his femures. Pointing his knees into the turn. That is tipping by femure rotation. Or you can flex your new inside foot to tip. To initiate a skidded/brushed turn tipping will not be sufficient. Pure tipping will only initiate a clean carve. The only exeption would be if you were still in the middle of a skidded turn to the right and you tipped your skis to the left. This would not initiate a clean carved turn. You would catch outside an outside edge on your outside ski and you would be slammed to the ground. About the worst thing that can happen.

 

What comes to Tanja in that photo....  converging skis and wedging are two totally different things. In the photo her skis are converging due to the fact that the inside ski needs to take a straighter line through out the turn. It has to do with geometry and praxis. Her inside ski should be carving at a smaller radius at the same time as she is bending her outside ski into a smaller radius arc due to outside ski dominance pressure. Annother reason is that she is tipping a lot and her inside foot and ski needs to get out of the way. Its being called vertical separation. If you look at her tracks you would see that they are wide at apex and narrow at transition. What you see in that photo has absolutely no njet narda nothing to do with wedging vs parallel turning. Or wedging for that matter. Or parallel turning. It has to do with advanced carving. And WC techique.

post #97 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

 

All of that said, I think that the sides are very well defined here, and I think that Bob's list of questions is the point of clarity. How we answer those questions defines our perspective (our "paradigm" for skiing and teaching it). I suspect that virtually every contributor to this thread would fall on one side while one would fall on the other. That fact alone raises some interesting questions.


Comparing our answeres show that we answered the same on every question. What whent wrong with your guessing here above?

Ah, but we didn't! The initial answers are the same (all false: they were trick questions), but the explanations are completely different.


That is not true. The test was according to the true/false consept. The explanations were just that, explanations. They show reasons. Lets see if I can put them head to head......
 

post #98 of 154

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

Bob and Steve - great posts, I consider myself so fortunate to have access to the well thought out ideas and carefully written posts of people like the two of you share with us.

 

PSIA-E stresses "speed control through turn shape.'  I fully understand Bob's statements that we shouldn't think of turns for speed control and am trying to make these concepts work together.  I think I have but want confirmation of my understanding.

 

Speed control is accomplished through managing gravity.

 

The way to manage these gravitational forces is by directing your mass towards or away from the gravitational pull of the earth.

 

Turns are designed to direct your mass in your intended direction, both to manage gravity AND to get from point a to point b (and to enjoy the ride!)

 

Does this accurately describe your thinking on this subject?  

How about flipping it on its head? If you don't use the shape of the turns to manage your speed, what do you use to manage your speed? Perhaps answering that will give you some insight into the statement?

 

I actually think less about the shape of the turn than I do about the path I take on snow. If I want to slow down, I head up. That could be up a mogul, back up a groomer, up the side of a natural pipe, or anything else. Sometimes, I head for deeper snow. But most of the time, I don't think about slow versus fast (you know how I ski, so you may have some comments about that statement!), I rather think about the sensations I'd like to feel, where I want to go, and work on being as efficient in accomplishing those desires as I can be.

 

If you want to think about speed control, I don't think of managing gravity but rather using it. You may mean the same thing, but I find playing with words can give a new perspective at times so think about that if it's helpful. I think about using gravity and choosing both my general path down the mountain and my turn shape to use gravity to choose my speed. Of course, there are times I just twist my skis and use my edges scraping on the snow to slow down 'cause I want to or 'cause I think that's the most expedient means to accomplish my intent.

 

I am also thinking about how flow works its way into this conversation... In watching members of my group last week and chatting with them a bit about maintaining flow down the mountain, I realized once again that for most people, they complete their turns only far enough to think that they have "turned". I encouraged them to continue turning uphill while allowing their bodies to continue generally downhill (crossing over the skis; see PSIman's skiing).

 

Hope that provides you some more grist for your thinking about all this!

post #99 of 154

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Now listen closely. Here comes the important part. When you are carving edge locked the only thing you need to do is to tip your skis on edge and they turn. Nothing else. This you can do a number of ways. You can for example do what the PSIA man is dooing. He is rotating his femures. Pointing his knees into the turn. That is tipping by femure rotation. Or you can flex your new inside foot to tip. To initiate a skidded/brushed turn tipping will not be sufficient. Pure tipping will only initiate a clean carve. The only exeption would be if you were still in the middle of a skidded turn to the right and you tipped your skis to the left. This would not initiate a clean carved turn. You would catch outside an outside edge on your outside ski and you would be slammed to the ground. About the worst thing that can happen.

PSIman doesn't have femurs. He can't rotate anything. That's not how he's "turning" or "tipping."

 

I can tip only and create a brushed turn by making the tipping slow enough to have the skis slipping downhill at the transition and just keep that going. I "uptip" until the skis start to slip. If I'm moving forward, the tips will find the fall line first, initiating a "turn". If I allow the skis to find the fall line, they will do that without any rotary ("pure tipping") and the completion of the turn comes from a bit more tipping to brush the end of the turn. Of course, I often add some femur rotation to play with the turn radius, but I don't have to. I can also add some of those movements into a "edge-locked" turn to tighten those turns, too. That wouldn't be a "tipping-only" carved turn, of course, but most observers wouldn't be able to tell that...

 

This means that your statement about tipping being insufficient for a brushed/slipped/"buttered" turn is false. It's also false that pure tipping will only initiate a clean carve. Therefore, you'll need to find another foundation for your hypothesis.

post #100 of 154

Steve, I'm personally very fond of the concept of turn shape (or path down the mountain, as you call it), as a possible separate entity from speed control.  Turn shape can of course be used as a means of speed control, but it doesn't have to be.  A specific turn shape can be used for the pure enjoyment of making that shaped turn, or simply getting were you want to go.  When doing that, speed can be managed to desirable levels via skid angle,,, or,,, as you put it:  

 

Quote:
Of course, there are times I just twist my skis and use my edges scraping on the snow to slow down 'cause I want to or 'cause I think that's the most expedient means to accomplish my intent.

 

 

post #101 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Now listen closely. Here comes the important part. When you are carving edge locked the only thing you need to do is to tip your skis on edge and they turn. Nothing else. This you can do a number of ways. You can for example do what the PSIA man is dooing. He is rotating his femures. Pointing his knees into the turn. That is tipping by femure rotation. Or you can flex your new inside foot to tip. To initiate a skidded/brushed turn tipping will not be sufficient. Pure tipping will only initiate a clean carve. The only exeption would be if you were still in the middle of a skidded turn to the right and you tipped your skis to the left. This would not initiate a clean carved turn. You would catch outside an outside edge on your outside ski and you would be slammed to the ground. About the worst thing that can happen.

PSIman doesn't have femurs. He can't rotate anything. That's not how he's "turning" or "tipping."

 

I can tip only and create a brushed turn by making the tipping slow enough to have the skis slipping downhill at the transition and just keep that going. I "uptip" until the skis start to slip. If I'm moving forward, the tips will find the fall line first, initiating a "turn". If I allow the skis to find the fall line, they will do that without any rotary ("pure tipping") and the completion of the turn comes from a bit more tipping to brush the end of the turn. Of course, I often add some femur rotation to play with the turn radius, but I don't have to. I can also add some of those movements into a "edge-locked" turn to tighten those turns, too. That wouldn't be a "tipping-only" carved turn, of course, but most observers wouldn't be able to tell that...

 

This means that your statement about tipping being insufficient for a brushed/slipped/"buttered" turn is false. It's also false that pure tipping will only initiate a clean carve. Therefore, you'll need to find another foundation for your hypothesis.



The PSIA man does rotate his femures. Only his leggs were cut off at his knees. You can only see his lower legs.

 

The PSIA man also proves you are wrong. ONLY tipping will only make you carve edge locked. The best way of checking it out would be to film your skiing on video and post it here.

 

post #102 of 154

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Steve, I'm personally very fond of the concept of turn shape (or path down the mountain, as you call it), as a possible separate entity from speed control.  Turn shape can of course be used as a means of speed control, but it doesn't have to be.  A specific turn shape can be used for the pure enjoyment of making that shaped turn, or simply getting were you want to go.  When doing that, speed can be managed to desirable levels via skid angle,,, or,,, as you put it:  

 

Quote:
Of course, there are times I just twist my skis and use my edges scraping on the snow to slow down 'cause I want to or 'cause I think that's the most expedient means to accomplish my intent.

I totally agree. I am not particularly fond of the phrase "speed control through turn shape." I hope that the words are just not particularly accurate for the intended meaning. But, I'm an optimist. The bottom line for me is to develop the skills so that I can manage my speed in multiple ways, including those that require very little effort on my part (going up) as well as those that require a lot of effort (like a snowplow [or "snowplough" for my UK friends]). Most skiers tend to muscle their way to speed control instead of using other forces that enable that control with much less effort, and I assume that is what PSIA-E is attempting to address. But, speed control can happen many different ways and turn shape can also be used for different purposes...

post #103 of 154

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Now listen closely. Here comes the important part. When you are carving edge locked the only thing you need to do is to tip your skis on edge and they turn. Nothing else. This you can do a number of ways. You can for example do what the PSIA man is dooing. He is rotating his femures. Pointing his knees into the turn. That is tipping by femure rotation. Or you can flex your new inside foot to tip. To initiate a skidded/brushed turn tipping will not be sufficient. Pure tipping will only initiate a clean carve. The only exeption would be if you were still in the middle of a skidded turn to the right and you tipped your skis to the left. This would not initiate a clean carved turn. You would catch outside an outside edge on your outside ski and you would be slammed to the ground. About the worst thing that can happen.

PSIman doesn't have femurs. He can't rotate anything. That's not how he's "turning" or "tipping."

 

I can tip only and create a brushed turn by making the tipping slow enough to have the skis slipping downhill at the transition and just keep that going. I "uptip" until the skis start to slip. If I'm moving forward, the tips will find the fall line first, initiating a "turn". If I allow the skis to find the fall line, they will do that without any rotary ("pure tipping") and the completion of the turn comes from a bit more tipping to brush the end of the turn. Of course, I often add some femur rotation to play with the turn radius, but I don't have to. I can also add some of those movements into a "edge-locked" turn to tighten those turns, too. That wouldn't be a "tipping-only" carved turn, of course, but most observers wouldn't be able to tell that...

 

This means that your statement about tipping being insufficient for a brushed/slipped/"buttered" turn is false. It's also false that pure tipping will only initiate a clean carve. Therefore, you'll need to find another foundation for your hypothesis.

The PSIA man does rotate his femures. Only his leggs were cut off at his knees. You can only see his lower legs.

 

The PSIA man also proves you are wrong. ONLY tipping will only make you carve edge locked. The best way of checking it out would be to film your skiing on video and post it here.

tdk6, you're mistaken. There is no rotation of the "legs" of PSIman. There can't be. They are connected together by a solid piece of metal that allows only movement in one plane (side-to-side). No rotation at all.

 

It certainly is possible to make "edge locked" carves by only tipping. But, PSIman's tipping isn't the only possible tipping. He tips very rapidly from one set of edges to the other. Humans can adjust the DIRT of the tipping (duration, intensity, rate, and timing), and in doing so can change the outcome. When I slow down my tipping, I can make a gentle brushed turn that uses gravity and the sideways slipping of the skis to effect that outcome. PSIman can't do that. He's an arcin' machine.

 

(Edit:) Oh, and if I can get someone to take some video of me one of these times when I'm skiing, I'll demonstrate this. I'm not sure when that might be, but I'd be happy to show you what I mean. I fear, however, that even when I demonstrate it, some will insist that I am making movements that I am not. We'll see...

post #104 of 154

 

Quote:

Trollrolleyes.gif

post #105 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

"Speed control through turn shape" is not opposed to the offensive skiing intent at all, while turning to slow down is opposed.  


 

If one is exercising speed control through the shape of their turns, then they obviously ARE turning to slow down.  Your statement thus makes no sense to me, Bud.  

 

If a person is carving small radius across the falline turns down a black groomer, as opposed to large radius down the falline, no outside observer can read the mind of that skier to know if his/her turn shape choice is based on the "defensive intent" of turning to slow down, or the "offensive intent" of just wanting to enjoy the sensations associated with that particular shape turn.  However, the fact that most skiers who carve reduce the radius of their carved turns when they get on steeper terrain, or abandon carving altogether, gives you a pretty good clue the choice is usually based on a desire to slow down.

 

If turning to slow down is considered "defensive intent", then small radius carved turns (the ultimate of "skiing the slow line fast") can very easily represent "defensive intent" skiing.  


Why do you turn the steering wheel in your car Rick? or the handle bars on your bike?

 

Is this intent different than the reason most skiers turn their skis?

 

I think it is as most skiers when asked why they turn, the response is to slow down.  Turning to most skiers is done with the intent to slow down or scrape off speed or to STOP GOING WHERE THEY ARE POINTING rather than TO GO THERE, which is why we turn the steering wheel on our car or the handle bars on our bikes.  This may sound like semantics to you but the mindset is completely opposite and produces totally different movement patterns.  Don't get me wrong, sometimes we all need to throw the brakes on or ski defensively, but the real joy of expert skiing is skiing around our turns, whatever radius we may choose, as fast and efficiently as possible with as little braking, stemming, or with movements not in the direction we want to go.  The goal of the GO turn is to separate the intent of slowing down from the intent to go there.  The end result is a more fluid turn and transition with minimal steering angle for the desired radius.  Consequently, with the intent of skiing around the line as fast as possible offensive GO turns become rounder and more completed across the fall line and the speed control is accomplished by how far around the chosen line we ski vs. a turn made with an intent to slow down will demonstrate a larger steering angle, a harsher edge set completion, and a more pivoted initiation.  Now there are many turns in between the two extremes however if the skier's mindset or intent is on the GO factor their turns will become cleaner and more fluid.  These two opposed intents can be easily spotted in a matter of a couple turns.  While it is not always a black or white difference the tell tale signs are present.  Are they moving down the hill, are the edges releasing smoothly vs. an edge set, or any movements up and away from the intended turn, converging stems, ab-stems, extensions up like a tree grows?  It is a psychological switch from defensive turns to offensive turns, from clinging to the mountain to letting go of that grip and embracing gravity and forward movement, from skidding to slicing,  from moving sideways to moving forward with the skis.

 

Let's look at where an expert skier may make the psychological switch from an offensive GO THERE turn to a defensive STOP GOING THERE turn.  If the pitch increases to the point where one tends to begin a hop turn entry they have switched intents to defensive turns whereas if they could still remain offensive they could keep their skis on the snow and accurately release their edges and steer their skis into the fall line.  As a skier improves their skills and confidence they will be able to remain in the offensive GO THERE mindset in scarier situations.  This is the intent of expert skiers, to brake as little as possible and enjoy gravity's pull as we redirect our masses down the slope!

 

 

post #106 of 154

I'm not sure if this will help, but I think many times words get lost in definitions and explanations, however, many of us can really relate to "feelings"  In my recent practice of "going there", offensive turns and early releases, I found that it was just that.  Duh, an early release.  As soon as I felt myself getting "gripped" at the end of the turn I just let go and went "there" (fall-line).  It literally was a split second difference in my DIRT.  As I gained more trust I began "anticipating" when that defensive point was going to kick-in and released even sooner.  Our bodies tend to over-react to those forces and create excessive movements and tension to compensate, which in turn make us more gripped. (I like the windsurfing analogy)  Anyway, it was all about the earlier and earlier release - or said another way, just end the turn sooner and don't fight it.  The magic here is that your skis also start another turn sooner so the speed outcome was perceived to be the same or less, and as SSH said, with a lot less effort.  Don't confuse finishing your turn with holding on to your turn.  Holding on gives you the toe-clench feeling, finishing doesn't. 

 

Hope it might help.

 

Edit, I'm just now reading Bud's post above.  I think we are saying the same thing

 

 "It is a psychological switch from defensive turns to offensive turns, from clinging to the mountain to letting go of that grip and embracing gravity and forward movement, from skidding to slicing,  from moving sideways to moving forward with the skis." 

 

post #107 of 154

Bud, thanks for the response.

 

Racing is probably the most pure demonstration of the" turning to go there" concept.  A racer turns because he/she HAS TO, not because they want to.  Turning to slow down is NOT something they do.  I've spent many years teaching racers to ski "the slow line fast", I bet long before the phrase was even a flicker of an idea in Bob's very creative mind.  

 

Free skiing is different.  Other than avoiding solid objects, there's little reason one MUST turn.  The ultimate "go there" location is the bottom of the hill, and just pointing the skis down the falline and straight lining it to bottom is the most direct course of travel to accomplish that.  Some people do that, but most don't.  Most people turn.  Why?  

 

The fact is, many people turn because they don't want to travel at the speed a straight run would produce, and they don't want to assume the risk to life and limb.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, in fact it's quite prudent.  While good skiers will at times only turn to enjoy the sensation of turning, I don't want the idea of turning to control speed to get villianized.   It's such a crucially important skill set to learn, one which every skier, no matter how good, NEEDS to possess to ski the entire mountain comfortably and safely.  Even the best skiers use speed management skills pervasively.  Even THEY have speed comfort zones, and turn to stay within them.  

 

Turn shape is one method of managing speed, but not the most effective.  If all one does is carve, their ability to maintain the precise line they want down the mountain, at the speed they find comfortable, will be severely diminished.  Steering and skid angle are the magic skills that make all turn shapes and speeds available.  Steering allows a skier to make turns well beyond the shape and speed limitations imposed by carving.  

 

shapeimage_17.png

 

 

Carving only allows turn shapes within the green zone in the drawing above.  Steering allows a skier to explore the yellow.  With steering, any turn shape is at a skiers disposal, which expands their choices in both the line they take down the mountain, and the speed they travel.  Steering involves some skidding, which interferes with the "go there" mindset, but so what.  It provides so much line and speed versatility to a skier.

 

Now lets talk about skid.  It's another marvelous speed management tool.  It allows a skier to use any turn shape in the yellow or green zone in the drawing above, and travel at any speed they desire while doing it.  It's liberating!  With good skid angle skills, a skier is no longer bound to a particular turn shape to gain the speed control they desire.  They can ski any line down the mountain they want, at whatever speed they find comfortable.  

 

What is skid angle, you ask?  The term simply refers to how much the direction the skis point diverges from the skiers actual direction of travel.  The bigger the skid angle, the wider the skid track a skier leaves in their wake, and the slower they'll travel.

 

skid%20angle.jpg

With strong skid angle skills, skiers no longer need to turn sharply, or across the falline, or uphill even, to keep their speed in their personal comfort zone.  They can ski as big turns as they want, and as down the falline as they desire, and still remain traveling at a speed they enjoy.  At any time, and within any shape turn, they can go faster if they want, or reduce speed at the drop of a hat.  

 

There's a fascinating thing that happens when people learn and hone these valuable steering and skid angle skills.   Just knowing they possess them, and that they can control their speed however they desire, whenever they choose, in the blink of an eye, gives them the confidence to let go of their old defensive skiing habits.  They discover  and begin to embrace the "go there" mentality.  Pivots go away,  turn radii grows,  and skid angles shrink.  Suddenly, they begin to enjoy the sensation of flowing down the mountain, with gravity their friend.   Muscle and mental tension fades away, and smiles replace clenched teeth.   It's so much fun to witness the transformation. 

 

Bud, I hope you can see from this post why I'm so concerned that speed control skills don't get universally condemned as something bad.  It's often the lack of having a full basket of them that causes people to cling to the one or two crude ones they do have.  Strange as it sounds, building and honing speed control skills is a great way to help people gain the confidence to finally let go of them.  Just knowing they have them, and that they can fall back on them whenever needed, is what they need  to comfortably begin exploring the joys of skiing "the slow line fast", or even the "fast line fast".  

post #108 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

tdk6, you're mistaken. There is no rotation of the "legs" of PSIman. There can't be. They are connected together by a solid piece of metal that allows only movement in one plane (side-to-side). No rotation at all.

 

It certainly is possible to make "edge locked" carves by only tipping. But, PSIman's tipping isn't the only possible tipping. He tips very rapidly from one set of edges to the other. Humans can adjust the DIRT of the tipping (duration, intensity, rate, and timing), and in doing so can change the outcome. When I slow down my tipping, I can make a gentle brushed turn that uses gravity and the sideways slipping of the skis to effect that outcome. PSIman can't do that. He's an arcin' machine.

 

(Edit:) Oh, and if I can get someone to take some video of me one of these times when I'm skiing, I'll demonstrate this. I'm not sure when that might be, but I'd be happy to show you what I mean. I fear, however, that even when I demonstrate it, some will insist that I am making movements that I am not. We'll see...


You are right. The PSIA man is an arcing machine and the construction of the metal frame allows only movement in one plane, side to side. But you are wrong. Also our knees allow movement in one plane only. The construction of our legs below the knees when we are skiing is identical with the PSIA mans. The PSIA man performs tipping in its purest form. Here is an illustration mimicing two possible scenarios for tipping. Femure rotation (pointing of knees) and long leg short leg, flexing of the inside leg.

PSIA Man 002.jpg

 

It is possible to loose the edge locked carve using additional movements. If that is the intent then its ok but most of the time its the other way arround. Additional movements prevent you to carve clean edge locked carves. Thats why you should try to eliminate all rotational movements that can pivot your skis at transition or at the top of the turn.

 

About your video. I would love to see it but Im affraid you are right. It will be quite revealing. But its no use speculating before the video is analyzed.

 

post #109 of 154

Excellent Post!!  I have always said carving was one dimensional and over-rated, for just the reasons you list.  Skidding is not a dirty word, but rather a blended high level skill.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Bud, thanks for the response.

 

Racing is probably the most pure demonstration of the" turning to go there" concept.  A racer turns because he/she HAS TO, not because they want to.  Turning to slow down is NOT something they do.  I've spent many years teaching racers to ski "the slow line fast", I bet long before the phrase was even a flicker of an idea in Bob's very creative mind.  

 

Free skiing is different.  Other than avoiding solid objects, there's little reason one MUST turn.  The ultimate "go there" location is the bottom of the hill, and just pointing the skis down the falline and straight lining it to bottom is the most direct course of travel to accomplish that.  Some people do that, but most don't.  Most people turn.  Why?  

 

The fact is, many people turn because they don't want to travel at the speed a straight run would produce, and they don't want to assume the risk to life and limb.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, in fact it's quite prudent.  While good skiers will at times only turn to enjoy the sensation of turning, I don't want the idea of turning to control speed to get villianized.   It's such a crucially important skill set to learn, one which every skier, no matter how good, NEEDS to possess to ski the entire mountain comfortably and safely.  Even the best skiers use speed management skills pervasively.  Even THEY have speed comfort zones, and turn to stay within them.  

 

Turn shape is one method of managing speed, but not the most effective.  If all one does is carve, their ability to maintain the precise line they want down the mountain, at the speed they find comfortable, will be severely diminished.  Steering and skid angle are the magic skills that make all turn shapes and speeds available.  Steering allows a skier to make turns well beyond the shape and speed limitations imposed by carving.  

 

shapeimage_17.png

 

 

Carving only allows turn shapes within the green zone in the drawing above.  Steering allows a skier to explore the yellow.  With steering, any turn shape is at a skiers disposal, which expands their choices in both the line they take down the mountain, and the speed they travel.  Steering involves some skidding, which interferes with the "go there" mindset, but so what.  It provides so much line and speed versatility to a skier.

 

Now lets talk about skid.  It's another marvelous speed management tool.  It allows a skier to use any turn shape in the yellow or green zone in the drawing above, and travel at any speed they desire while doing it.  It's liberating!  With good skid angle skills, a skier is no longer bound to a particular turn shape to gain the speed control they desire.  They can ski any line down the mountain they want, at whatever speed they find comfortable.  

 

What is skid angle, you ask?  The term simply refers to how much the direction the skis point diverges from the skiers actual direction of travel.  The bigger the skid angle, the wider the skid track a skier leaves in their wake, and the slower they'll travel.

 

skid%20angle.jpg

With strong skid angle skills, skiers no longer need to turn sharply, or across the falline, or uphill even, to keep their speed in their personal comfort zone.  They can ski as big turns as they want, and as down the falline as they desire, and still remain traveling at a speed they enjoy.  At any time, and within any shape turn, they can go faster if they want, or reduce speed at the drop of a hat.  

 

There's a fascinating thing that happens when people learn and hone these valuable steering and skid angle skills.   Just knowing they possess them, and that they can control their speed however they desire, whenever they choose, in the blink of an eye, gives them the confidence to let go of their old defensive skiing habits.  They discover  and begin to embrace the "go there" mentality.  Pivots go away,  turn radii grows,  and skid angles shrink.  Suddenly, they begin to enjoy the sensation of flowing down the mountain, with gravity their friend.   Muscle and mental tension fades away, and smiles replace clenched teeth.   It's so much fun to witness the transformation. 

 

Bud, I hope you can see from this post why I'm so concerned that speed control skills don't get universally condemned as something bad.  It's often the lack of having a full basket of them that causes people to cling to the one or two crude ones they do have.  Strange as it sounds, building and honing speed control skills is a great way to help people gain the confidence to finally let go of them.  Just knowing they have them, and that they can fall back on them whenever needed, is what they need  to comfortably begin exploring the joys of skiing "the slow line fast", or even the "fast line fast".  

post #110 of 154

Rick, I don't believe you are understanding what we are suggesting here?  No one is saying every turn should be carved!  

 

Using your above diagram illustrating a large skid angle and a small skid angle as an example, which one is more offensive? which one uses less braking?  which one shows the tails following more closely the tips?  

 

Your carve zone diagram offers a nice visual of the range of possibilities.  There are certainly instances where we want to ski a line that is outside of the carving zone of a ski and therefore we must steer our skis with some muscular effort.  This type of turn can also be a GO turn even though it is not carved.  the intent is to make that turn with the smallest steering angle possible keeping the skis moving forward as much as possible along the desired path.  It is the intent and subsequent actions which determine outcome.  

 

Going back to your reference to racing and free skiing, isn't the ultimate GO there intent the next gate for the racer, or the next turn for a free skier?

 

 

I quote Bob Barnes:

"Great turns result inevitably and exclusively, from the intent to control LINE not the intent to control SPEED (which causes BRAKING)

a) thinking of the turn as a speed control activity is the near-universal cause of the "dreaded intermediate rut" it devastates great turns!

b) for many skiers adopting this "expert's intent" will involve a genuine paradigm shift.

c) with good skiing habits, speed control comes primarily from "direction" (going uphill) vs. "friction" (scraping away speed with the ski edges)

d) great turns allow us to ski a line that eliminates the NEED for speed control

e) If you can control line, you can ski a "slow line" so even novices can make great turns

f) speed control intent and braking skills, are certainly an important part of skiing, but they are incompatible with a great turns.

 

If your mindset is DEFENSIVE you can not, will not, (and probably SHOULD NOT) make this type turn."

post #111 of 154


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Consequently, with the intent of skiing around the line as fast as possible offensive GO turns become rounder and more completed across the fall line and the speed control is accomplished by how far around the chosen line we ski vs. a turn made with an intent to slow down will demonstrate a larger steering angle, a harsher edge set completion, and a more pivoted initiation. 

 


I think you are oh so wrong with your assumptions about how all other people think and do. In your case, you might be 100% correct, but certaintly not in mine.

Look at this clip for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey0PqeQ8B_c It's from a couple of years ago. Extensions up, sure, but that was how I skied at that time whatever the reason.

I'm turning to maintain a reasonable speed. I actually bought those skis to be able to keep the speed down by turning.

My mindset was that I didn't want to be a hazard to the other guys in the slope but I wanted g-forces. Intent = maintain speed.

 

Yesterday when I was competing gates, the SL course was a little difficult to arc, especially after a combination where it felt like I almost came to a halt just to make the next gate.

So the second run I *obviously* tried everything to go faster down the course. I practiced a lot between the runs, evaluating if I should arc and then do an abrupt edge set to make the end of the combination, or if I should try to stivot. I chose the latter. So, I wanted to go faster and I cut off part of the turns.  Not clean, harsh, pivoted initiation. Didn't work however. I came down the course cleanly, keeping a better line, but with a time slower than the first run. But we were talking intent right? Intent = go faster.

 

Individuals are unique Bud.

post #112 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

One more shot:

TDK6, here are a couple images of one of your Finnish countrymen (er, women), the great Tanja Poutiainen:

500
(from the Marker-Volkl Canada website)

500
(from ronlemaster.com)

So, why is Tanja turning? What is she trying to control?

It sure isn't speed, is it? If she isn't turning to control line, to go toward the next gate, as fast as she can, then I'm certainly missing something about the point of racing!

I would assume that we'd agree that she makes very, very good turns. So if we want to introduce these same concepts to new students, or nurture the same concepts with higher level students, if we want to put any student on the road toward these exquisite movements, at any level, don't you think we should be teaching the same, basic thing? If Tanja is turning to control direction, but you teach turns as a way to control speed, do you not see a conflict?

No need to answer...just think about it!

Best regards,
Bob


Skiing a WC race course would be a very bad example of "turning so speed controll is un-necessary". The reason for this is that the skiers turn according to a set race course (you should know this). Not according to their own needs. This is the most common missconseption skiers that dont race have. They carve down the hill in a line they choose them selves, slow line fast they call it, and think they are skiing like Tanja Poutiainen. When you put such an offencive minded person on a race course they last a couple of turns and then they are going too fast and they have to slam on the brakes, go wide or wipe out. So far I have never seen an exception. The ones that make it past the first couple of gates are the ones that are able to controll their speed. You cannot start off going full trottle. This is where skill comes into play. The better you are the less you need to brake. But everyone starts out on the same race track. And no WC race track can be skied without controlling their speed.


This is the truth. icon14.gif

post #113 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I have not tried this on the slope, but I'll do that today. If you have enough speed I cannot see why releasing the old edge would not start a turn. I think that tipping the feet is the most fundamental skill to be learnt here, but I also believe that pressure management comes as a VERY close second, because when you release by tipping you are lifting the BTE; thus reducing pressure on that leg and increasing it on the new ouside leg. This increased pressure is then either maintained by centrifugal or body movement OR both  (passive; active ; both). Sooner or later you should use both IMO.

  



I will be very interested in hearing how your test whent today. Also, what if you dont have enough speed? What if you need to turn tighter? What if you need to suddenly reduce your speed? When you are testing be sure to isolate the tipping movement to your old outside ski. Be sure to do nothing else. When I do it my released ski immediately starts to get pushed sideways by the new outside ski that does not start turning. It hooks up on its rail. Since my wedge is very small, skidding angle small, the change of direction is minimal. My weight is also shifted to my new inside ski because its downhill and my CoM is being pulled by gravity that way.

 


TDK, I played around a bit with this during the weekend. 

My conclusions are that you can turn by only tipping the foot, HOWEVER:

- It requires a certain amount of speed relative to the degree of turn and steepness of the hill.

- I feel very unnatural to tip only the foot. When I tip my BTE up I feel that it is very natural to angulate throughout the body, thus moving weight to the new outside. Whether this is passive or active I don't know, but since I am focusing on the tipping and not acitvely doing it with my mind it could be considered passive. This is probably due to my ingrained movement patterns though. Not sure how a beginner would react.

post #114 of 154
Thread Starter 

Carl, great skiing. Dont think that your extention is bad. Its actually very functional and a good thing. Note that your hip is scraping the snow at apex. You have to come up after so much projection into the turn and with your CoM so low. The up-movement is not only a leg extention thing. Its caused primarily by vaulting. Try to tape updated skiing this year.

 

Great posting Rick. IMO first comes controll and safety. For me the building blocks are technique, skills and movements. I have been fortunate enough not to brake any bones while skiing but still done it actively for 45y. I never became a world champ at anything but I have had fun and I think I can keep up with most skiers on the hill. In everything I do my intent is to stay in controll. I avoid risks. My experiance with students and sports over the years is that its healthy to be a bit scared and defensive. Recklessness is something you dont want. The great thing about being easily scared is that you dont have to make 40 foot cliff jumps to get your kicks. I get my kicks from every time I ski even if its wedging with students on the bunny hill.

 

About Ricks speed suit..... I would have used shorts in addition to the jacket to keep warm but using a speed suit is not only for speed. Once you get used to the speed suit its quite hard to ski without. The way it holds you together and gives you limb presence and environmental feedback is quite addicting. My SL suit also has paddings so that protects better than just a shell jacket or pants. I also like skiing with a helmet. However, a GS race helmet is not as comfortable as a free ride helmet. Or these modern light construction SL helmets. Something to consider for Rick. But he is not the only one making commercial instructional material not using a helmet. Time for you guys to slip into this century Ott+Wedeln.gif.

post #115 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

TDK, I played around a bit with this during the weekend. 

My conclusions are that you can turn by only tipping the foot, HOWEVER:

- It requires a certain amount of speed relative to the degree of turn and steepness of the hill.

- I feel very unnatural to tip only the foot. When I tip my BTE up I feel that it is very natural to angulate throughout the body, thus moving weight to the new outside. Whether this is passive or active I don't know, but since I am focusing on the tipping and not acitvely doing it with my mind it could be considered passive. This is probably due to my ingrained movement patterns though. Not sure how a beginner would react.



Thanks for testing it out. I too get my skis to turn under similair circumstances. The angulation you use in combination is active. Its very hard to isolate your movements to just one single movement. Here is a frame shot from one of the original videos posted at the beginning of this thread. This is old school but still to me it represents proper technique.

 

SkiJapan002.jpg

post #116 of 154

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post

tdk6, you're mistaken. There is no rotation of the "legs" of PSIman. There can't be. They are connected together by a solid piece of metal that allows only movement in one plane (side-to-side). No rotation at all.

 

It certainly is possible to make "edge locked" carves by only tipping. But, PSIman's tipping isn't the only possible tipping. He tips very rapidly from one set of edges to the other. Humans can adjust the DIRT of the tipping (duration, intensity, rate, and timing), and in doing so can change the outcome. When I slow down my tipping, I can make a gentle brushed turn that uses gravity and the sideways slipping of the skis to effect that outcome. PSIman can't do that. He's an arcin' machine.

 

(Edit:) Oh, and if I can get someone to take some video of me one of these times when I'm skiing, I'll demonstrate this. I'm not sure when that might be, but I'd be happy to show you what I mean. I fear, however, that even when I demonstrate it, some will insist that I am making movements that I am not. We'll see...


You are right. The PSIA man is an arcing machine and the construction of the metal frame allows only movement in one plane, side to side. But you are wrong. Also our knees allow movement in one plane only. The construction of our legs below the knees when we are skiing is identical with the PSIA mans. The PSIA man performs tipping in its purest form. Here is an illustration mimicing two possible scenarios for tipping. Femure rotation (pointing of knees) and long leg short leg, flexing of the inside leg.

PSIA Man 002.jpg

 

It is possible to loose the edge locked carve using additional movements. If that is the intent then its ok but most of the time its the other way arround. Additional movements prevent you to carve clean edge locked carves. Thats why you should try to eliminate all rotational movements that can pivot your skis at transition or at the top of the turn.

 

About your video. I would love to see it but Im affraid you are right. It will be quite revealing. But its no use speculating before the video is analyzed.

tdk6, I've thought about this for a few days, trying to understand how you could possibly think that PSIman is rotating anything. While I think that I might have come up with a way that you might be seeing it, that way doesn't match any of the definitions of "rotation" that I know. In order for PSIman to "rotate his femurs", he would have to be able to twist his "legs" relative to his "hips" (that bar that connects his two legs together). Since he can't twist anything, he's not rotating anything. Of course, his "legs" rotate with respect to a line down the mountain, but not with respect to his "feet", his skis, or his "knees" or "hips". There's no twisting, so there's no rotation.

 

To demonstrate this rotation, lay on the floor. Turn both feet so your toes point to the right. Note what your femurs do. Your hips shouldn't move. That's rotation.

 

Furthermore, the kinds of turns that PSIman does are known around here as "park and ride": He slams to one set of edges, rides them around, then slams to the other set. This isn't the only way to carve turns or the only way to use the sidecut, certainly, but since PSIman is 100% passive, he demonstrates that one can arc turns without using any energy provided from one's body! This is an amazing discovery! If you flow down the mountain allowing your body to cross your skis, you can actually arc turns! This is a very cool realization!

 

Any energy and muscle movement you add to the mix is to adjust what happens and when. There is a virtually infinite variety of options open to the skillful skier. But, it is completely unnecessary to use any muscle movements at all in order to create arced turns using modern sidecut skis. And this fact alone can revolutionize one's thinking about skiing and, in fact, one's experience on-snow.

 

I know this because it did for me.

post #117 of 154

Poor PSIAman,

Nobody ever talks to him about what he does. They also glued that badge on him but he really isn't PSIA, he's from another part of the world but he knows he will never see any more of his kind. Life as a droid really sucks! I suspect he could tell us a lot about how he turns but they didn't build him with voice capabilities so he keeps his secrets to himself. Does he even like skiing, or is it just what he does? We humans assume a lot about how and why he skis. Poor PSIAman...

post #118 of 154

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Poor PSIAman,

Nobody ever talks to him about what he does. They also glued that badge on him but he really isn't PSIA, he's from another part of the world but he knows he will never see any more of his kind. Life as a droid really sucks! I suspect he could tell us a lot about how he turns but they didn't build him with voice capabilities so he keeps his secrets to himself. Does he even like skiing, or is it just what he does? We humans assume a lot about how and why he skis. Poor PSIAman...

Ok, JASP, what did I get wrong? I'm ready to learn more!

post #119 of 154
Thread Starter 

ssh - you clearly have a mental block. The PSIA man replicates a human being from the knees down. To hold both lower legs together there is a horisontal bar connecting the knees together allowing for movemen only in the coronal plane (sideways). Its correct that the PSIA man doesent rotate anything but if you look at your legs from your knees down as you ski or do skiing movements they also dont rotate in any way. Maybe you are confused because the PSIA man doesent lean forwards in his boots.

 

Femure rotation refers to your femures rotating in your hip sockets. If you lie on your back on the floor with your legs straight and point your feet to eather side that is rotation. That is correct. But now flex your knee joint, bend your knees, and do the same movement with your legs. See, this is important. When you ski your legs are not extended fully. Because if they are you cannot tip your skis with quick leg movements.

 

Its good that you have come to the conclusion that you dont need any other movements to carve than tipping. Check out the PSIA conspet TGIF for a killer ski tip on how to carve. However, bringing the PSIA man into this thread is kind of wrong. Its interesting that when the thread is about carving everyone is very conserned about skidding and when the thread is about skidding then everyone is conserned about carving. They are in reference to this discussion total opposite. As you said your selfe, carving requires only tipping. But when you skidd you need a blend of skills. Once your blend of skills are ingrained including all the bad stuff then carving will become very difficlut. And vice versa.

post #120 of 154

Easy TDK! Steve doesn't have a mental block, although it's clear so many people don't understand that little machine. The CoM is up in the crossbar and that is more analogous to the pelvic girdle than the knees. He's an oddity and the product of some ski engineers who figured out how to produce a machine that simulates the lower half of the human body, not just the lower legs. As far as my toungue in cheek post about him being mis-understood, well if he could talk he certainly could clear up so many of these misconceptions.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Old School Approach to Great Skiing