Teaching Asian skiers

I am interested in a serious and respectful discussion of the challenges of teaching Oriental clients to ski. We have some very talented Asian athletes on our staff, I am generalzing about some common problems I've encountered with Asian skiers I've taught only for the sake of clarity. I have some ideas and I'd welcome your feedback. New skiers who have never even walked on snow have balance issues that you don't see in people who have lived in a snowy climate. Many Asians share these issues, but I think I also see something more fundamental. It's their posture. I start all lessons with a discussion of "balanced athletic stance" or "home base" followed by a demonstration and some practice. The athletic stance seems to me very ingrained in the western culture. So western that I feel like I'm ready to draw my pistols for a shoot out at the OK corral. American seems to adopt this stance naturally and comfortably, even if they are not very athletic. I've seen non-westerners adopt this stance durring the demo, and then relax into a different posture when the demo is done. They stand upright with their weight on their heels often with their arms crossed behind their back. In fact, some have a tendency to slide backward because they are so far back on their heels.I have also noticed that Asians are upright when they lean back, they almost never "sit back" the way Westerners do when they get into the back seat. When they bend they bend forward at the hip, but don't flex their knees. My basic questions are: is the balanced athletic stance we use more familiar and natural to Americans and Europeans than to Asians? Are there images from Asian sports (I know nothing about martial arts etc.) that would be helpful getting Asian learners into better balance? what cues have you found to be effective in helping Asian skiers to balance. BTW--Happy New Year to All.

It's a matter of whether the student is athletic or not. Tell a martial artist to get into a "horse stance", to get his/her hands forward and to start skiing down - and you've got a skier right then and there! The rest will come to them naturally. They will narrow the stance once they feel comfortable. I believe ditto a yoga practitioner (the name of the pose will differ though [img]smile.gif[/img] ) The reason I know that is my Sabumnim (Taekwondo Master) - a Korean guy from Seoul - loves to ski and skis pretty well. If the person is not athletic at all - which is fairly rare if the person comes from Asia - in China, Korea, and Japan martial arts are taught at school - then you get the same set of problems as with any non-athletic WASP; no pistols will help there.

[ December 31, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: AlexG ]

I taught a kid today who was from Perth, Australia. He'd never seen snow before today. He seemed to be a natural. Of course, the rest of the class was crying, or trying to run away, so I didn't get much of a chance to see how far I could go with him. He might be back tomorrow. I hope so.

For what its worth, you are talking about some pretty "polite" cultures. You may be confusing the visual cues w/ understanding, not realizing your descriptions, imagery, or instructions are missing the mark. Just a thought.

Lots of Luck.

I saw you in the Corral, Epic, I wondered what you were up to!

Yeah, the "never seen snow therefore can't ski" argument has never convinced me, as so many aussies have never seen snow or ice and yet they learn to ski the same as anyone. And there is skiing in many asian countries. Actually, I find most Asians pretty much the same as most people to teach. The people I can generalise about as being very hard to teach are Indians, and to a lesser extent, Arabs. Why, I have NO idea, but it's too widespread and well known to sweep under the PC carpet. I'd love to know the reason, as I have taught many Indians in the US and in Australia, and most (ie 99.9%) have more trouble than the rest of the class, who might be anglos, and chinese-asians. And the Indians are keen as mustard to learn to ski, and they watch their classmates learn, while they are still struggling. Whoever can work out the problem will earn my undying gratitude. I had some young, athletic Indians in Australia. they were born in Australia, they were Aussies. The guys played soccer. And they struggled, same as others. WHY?! In the same group, I had a Chinese-Aussie grandmother. She was turning down the hill while these late-20's aussie indians flipped and flopped about. It wasn't language, and it wasn't lack of athleticism. I'm stumped!

if the asians are from overseas or have relatives that are, ask them if they have ever had to catch dinner (chickens) The way you catch a chicken in china/hong kong and other probably other eastern nations is to hold an open plastic bag (usually a garbage bag) in front of you with the closed end between your legs, chase the chicken and trap it. this puts the student in a pretty athletic stance and gets them moving their feet.

Other sports common for asians is table tennis, also putting you in an athletic stance.

I would also ask them if they play basketball (common sport for asians)be sure to let them know it does not have to be all the time, just once in a while or for recreation. Jump shots (mimick) will put them in the proper position as well.

I had one student yesterday that actually was totally frightened as soon as she started to slide. She played tennis and could stay balanced but as soon as motion started she froze. Lucky for me she was from Shanghai and had actually caught chickens, We got her moving and sliding in just a few minutes. As soon as she had something else to concentrate on and a task at hand, she was moving. Maybe not ripping up the hill but no longer totally frozen! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Wow! Just like Rocky! Maybe we could have a little cage full of chickens at the hill and set them loose when we get desperate (and our students get hungry). One of my most memorable runs was a bit like that. It was a long time ago, I was not a very good skier then, although I thought I was. We were in Jackson Hole skiing the Middle Hoback, when my dad crashed and lost a ski. That ski took off, and was just going straight down the slope. I took off chasing it, and made the best turns I had ever done all the way down to the traverse at the bottom. It was the best turns I made for a loooong time. If the foxes hadn't eaten all of my chickens, maybe I'd take one to the hill today. Heck, with all the Holiday chaos, maybe there's aready one there!

Two of my best beginning students ever had never seen snow before, had only about 40 minutes to learn to ski before setting off to hop on a plane, didn't speak english etc. Those kids were great, naturals! I've seen lots of instructors speaking, ever more loudly, at their students and the students politely nodding and smiling but obviously uncomprehending, though. Unlike the Aussies, who are often widely travelled, few americans have ever had much exposure to foreign cultures. Sometimes our approach is lacking. Nevertheless I think it may be fair to say that some cultures lack anything like what we call PhysEd. I've had students who just seem unable to control their legs, balance etc. Its just as if there was a whole area of personal development they had never experienced. Frequently these were Indians. I have no idea what their childhood development is like, whether they play games, sports etc. I suspect not. Prior to my experience as a ski instructor I used to snicker at the term "Physical Education" used in the school system but no more. As far as racism etc, I've had young children of Pakistani descent in my classes and they were just as capable as any I've ever taught.

ant said:

"The people I can generalise about as being very hard to teach are Indians, and to a lesser extent, Arabs. Why, I have NO idea, but it's too widespread and well known to sweep under the PC carpet. I'd love to know the reason, as I have taught many Indians in the US and in Australia, and most (ie 99.9%) have more trouble than the rest of the class, who might be anglos, and chinese-asians. And the Indians are keen as mustard to learn to ski, and they watch their classmates learn, while they are still struggling. Whoever can work out the problem will earn my undying gratitude."

arcadie said:

"I've had students who just seem unable to control their legs, balance etc. Its just as if there was a whole area of personal development they had never experienced. Frequently these were Indians. I have no idea what their childhood development is like, whether they play games, sports etc. I suspect not. Prior to my experience as a ski instructor I used to snicker at the term "Physical Education" used in the school system but no more. As far as racism etc, I've had young children of Pakistani descent in my classes and they were just as capable as any I've ever taught."

As a beginner instructor, I need all the patience, empathy and understanding I can get from my more experienced fellow instructors. What ant and arcadie have said are consistent with my brief, beginning experience regarding Indians . . . but I had a similar kind of experience with a person of Italian descent from New Jersey. I feel so frustrated that these people have paid money so that they can learn to ski, and I feel I've failed them utterly - even though I've had great success with other beginners, both children and adults. I also had a Pakistani father and son who had a wonderful learning experience, but I think we're missing the point when we state it in ethnic rather than behavioral terms - the term (which I'll invent for this occasian)is "ball bearings under the feet syndrome" (BBUTF). It's like there's NO WAY these people can stand still on skis or stay on them when moving. The act of edging - I mean, ANY degree of edging - also seems to be illusive or a mystery to some.

So, my question: What techniques or practices can we employ to get the BBUTF in remission? A thought: Don't start on the bunny hill on alpine skis. Start on cross country skis on a flat surface. The BBUTF may remain, of course, but if the skis are wide enough and the surface flat enough, maybe it'll be a good start.

If we can't get these people beyond BBUTF, we can't get them anywhere. Do we say, "Hey, skiing isn't everything, don't worry about it. You tried." Or can this problem be solved?

This is a great conversation. I don't think "athleticism" is the issue here, or at least, the use of the word is misleading. Having had a conversation once with a south Indian client on this very subject, I learned that this indeed is the case. It seems many folks from this part of the world have not had foundational sliding experiences like skating, sledding, roller blading, surfing, skateboarding etc. (some of which ARE part of Australian culture).
If this is the case, part of our job as "movement specialists" might be to lay the groundwork for the kind of unique dynamic balancing found in skiing, which is an even more intriguing sport since the sliding takes place on an inclined plane.
This gets me to thinking: If you as an adult learner had never "slid" as a recreational activity before, what would you need to know, see and feel internally in order to learn to maintain integrity of balance? What might be a progression of basic physical experiences and concepts about "sliding" and even more simply, "standing" on a slippery surface, your instructor could lay that would help you enter into the advanced challenge of skiing?

[ January 01, 2004, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: vera ]

I call it Wile E. Coyote syndrome. Like when he runs off a cliff. They are pnicing, running in place with skis on. With kids, I sometimes just grab them, Step on thier skis so they can't move, and getthem to calm down . Sometimes they are hyperventilating because they are so freaked out. Then, you have to get them to move slowly . One foot at a time. You have to teach them to weight the one ski while they move the other. Some people even have trouble with this in the one ski stage of the lesson. Do you have any carpet? Sometimes, we roll out some of that "faux grass" style carpet for them to slide around on. It can be good to put it on an incline so they can practice herringbone and side-stepping on it. Sometimes I wonder if it would be helpful to put nordic kick wax on thier skis? That wouldn't be too good for thier gliding though.

Vera, I'm still looking for mechanisms to allow the body to experience the sensation. Thinking in terms of "concepts" puzzles me.

hmmm. Cross country skis on the flats?

I'm not really sure how freeing the heel would help them. I think it would probably hurt. My guess is they need all the help from the boot that they can get. Plus, it restricts them to smaller movements, which in my view is a good thing. I have to remind them to take the tiniest steps they can when working on the flats.

Here are some thoughts about standing on a flat, slippery surface which have prompted my thinking (from my south Indian client who shared with me that before sliding, simply learning to stand and practicing standing comes first):
"They need to know they can stand upright and keep themselves there. They need some time to practice this and get used to it. If I hold tension in my body - ankles, knees, legs, abdomen - I can stand upright. The tension helps hold the skis underneath me and they won't slide away. I can hold tension by tightening my muscles, like squeezing a fist. If I relax too much, the skis slide apart and I fall down. If I tighten too much, I'm stiff."
This makes me think that one-ski exercises would also be helpful a little later on, way before strapping both on. I also might start by simply walking around in the boots, extending, flexing, tipping, turning, relaxing and tightening different muscles and joints without skis on.

Good stuff, epic and vera! Thanks!

How about poles? Is it always best to leave the poles behind? When are the poles left out, and when are they used? My first experiences are indicating that, in the beginning, the cause more problems than they solve.

Arcadie--fortunately they are a polite culture. Based on some of my experiences, if they weren't polite,they mjight have saidsomething like "What the heck are you talking about???" I think Vera is on to something with the functional tension needed to slide. I'm wondering what's the best way to get someone to achieve this. I'll try asking the skier to tighten his abdomen, that might cause him to also tighten the gleuts and thighs, as well as stand more upright. Another alternative-- try asking them to curl their toes up, that would cause the calves to tighten. However, both of these suggestions might be too specific for a beginner who has a lot to think about already. I'll find out quickly if it works or not. I spend a lot of time on the flat with my new skiers skating or gliding. Either move will get a weight transfer and held develop dynamic balance. On gliding runs I emphasize shin to boot contact. Poles aren't necessary. I usually have beginners carrying their poles like a tray of drinks as soon as I see that they can stand upright. This stabilizes the upper body so the leegs can do the work.

As someone, Oboe I believe, pointed out, there is a tendency to interject ethnic issues where behavioral variables can suffice in explaining your observations.

You've got to realize that many N. American children have significant exposure to a wide diversity of sports such as baseball, soccer, swimming, hockey, bicycling, volleyball, basketball, gymanstics ... you name it. This diversity of exposure endows them with a flexible athleticism that carries into all arenas of activities requiring physical coordination.

In contrast, many children growing up from Asiatic countries do not have the benefit of this diversity of sports activities. The Asiatic educational, cultural, and family situations simply place significantly less emphasis on physical activities than N. American counterparts. Consequently, many Asians from Asia simply lack much of the "natural" atheltic coordination we in America take for granted.

Put it in another way, the situation you described should not be a ethnic/genetic issue. Vis-a-vis American born/raised asians are no less coordinated or less atheltic than American born/raised caucasians. Likewise, there are many very athletic Asian-born Asians, though I venture to suggest that there are many more who are not as coordinated.

I have to disagree. In China, EVERYBODY rides a bicycle: it has been the primary mode of transportation since the mid-70s.

Like I said, in Japan, Korea, and China, martial arts are taught as PhysEd at schools. Basketball, volleyball, table tennis (ping pong), baseball are all very popular sports in these cultures. Over decades, China was Russia's main opponent in gymanstics. And if you ever tried moving a boat up a river, you would get a lot of appreciation for the athleticism of the stance that Chinese fishermen have. US women's soccer team has a very strong opponent for world leadership in the face of the Chinese team. Badminton is another favorite pastime in China and Vietnam. Cricket and field hockey are national sports in India and Pakistan.

They are not worse developed physically than Americans. The very fact that they come to try skiing en masse is a strong indicator that they want to learn another athletic skill, absorb it, and make it a part of their culture. BTW, out of my coworkers who love snowboarding or skiing, two thirds are from Korea and China.

Put it another way. Are all Americans expert gun men, ala shoot from the hip cowboy style? Most Asians in Asia seem to think so. Seems many in N. America still think most Asians from Asia are martial arts experts, ala Bruce Lee/ Jackie Chan/ whoever.

I suggest interviewing your students, Asian or otherwise, who have trouble with their coordination issues learning to ski. Chances are high that they are a little light in sports/athletics department in their history.

[ January 02, 2004, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: josseph ]

Not at all; but statistically, same percentage of folks from Asia are exposed to martial arts as Americans are exposed to baseball and basketball, Brazilians to soccer, Pakistanis to cricket, Austrians to alpine skiing, and Russians to cross-country skiing. Of course not all of them grow up to be Diego Maradona, Michael Jordan, Bruce Lee, Galina Kulakova (a Russian 4-time Olympic champion in 30-km XC races) or Hermann Meier.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

What I think should work best for skiers direct from Asia, especially if there is a language barrier, is repetitive movement patterns; engaging motor memory - and then putting it all together on a slightly more challenging terrain (practice it to death on easy green and then moving on to a hard green run). For older folks, taichi-style breathing exercises while skiing will win you grateful followers. I've seen one instructor do that in a private lesson.

[ January 02, 2004, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: AlexG ]

Have a look back on some of my posts on my early lessons.... this was exactly the problem my first instructor had with me.... as sliding equalled falling in my mind I was not exactly keen to learn to slide anywhere....

Its a shame our approach to teaching skiing is a limited as it is. When I was teaching skiing we instructors used to ponder the issues being discussed here and talk about about a broader approach to introducung people to sliding sports, utilizing the other opportunities available at our resort like ice skating, roller blading, tubing, cross country skiing in addition to the traditional presentation of the ski lesson. All of these experiences, which are available at some resorts, can be packaged together in various fun ways to people new to the ski resort experience. We tend to underestimate the issues involved w/ acclimating people to our environment and acheiving a comfort level with what skiing requires. We also tend to underestimate the resorces, including human ones, available to us. Unfortunately ski schools are so set in their perception of what they do, and have "always" done that they seem unable to recast themselves in new ways.

I have taught all manner of never-evers...

in general...
1. I use a simple recipe to share feelings and skills
2. you REALLY have to watch the bio-mechanics and make quick corrections

what is my simple recipe?

1. walk in boots
2. run in boots
3. stand on one foot and balance
4. stand on other foot and balance
(I'm watching to see what people can do)
5. put on one ski, pop it off with boot, put ski on other foot, pop it off with boot
6. put ski on one foot and slide around
7. pop off ski and put on other foot and slide around
8. go up hill a bit with ski on one foot and slide down
(repeat a few times)
9. pop off ski and put on other foot and walk up hill and slide down on one foot
(repeat again)
10. put on both skis and walk on flat surface
11. skate on flat surface - point out differences
12. make a CIRCLE (clockwise and counterclockwise)
13. go to slight incline and make a CIRCLE
(discuss edges and weight distribution)
14. fall and get up without poles
15. walk up hill a bit and free slide down to me
(repeat a few times)
16. discuss "walking" to right to turn right or "walking" to left to turn left
17. walk up hill and practice the technique to turn
18 discuss how this helps turn and stop

(etc etc etc)

I always watch for "knock-knees" and balance issues. I carefully explain how these two issues impact an ability to ski.

I break everything down to tiny, simple stepsand practice everything in a "safe" environment.

Everyone will get the basics... some will progress more quickly than others.

I do agree that some cultural components come into play, but I don't think they are physical or athletically-related.

DC - great ideas.. thanks for sharing!!

kiersten

I'm with you on the walking. I don't feel there is any simple formula, though. What you teach and how you do it is something that has to be constantly evaluated and readjusted. Beginning with walking though is beginning with something that all the students in your average class can do and adapting and extending that skill into an activity that is new to them. Cultural factors, it seemed to me, come into play w/ regard to communication and the teacher relationship to the students. Someone more knowledgeable than I could undoubtedly write an entire thesis on the role of teacher in Asiatic cultures, which is very different from the way teachers are regarded and the way teachers position themselves in our culture.

kiersten,

Wow, that looks very much like my lesson plan for never evers. Maybe not in that exact order but I usually touch on almost all the same exercises. I mix them up sometimes depending on the students. I often talk about equipment and terms, (parts, fall line, poles, etc) while they are doing their flexing, walking, etc.

One more I do is balance on one foot with eyes closed. then have them touch the ground with their pole. This gets them to realize that the pole is more of a tool to stabilize them, not lean on.

I've been wanting to jump in on this post for a few days and just haven't had the time....

Whenever I get a REALLY challenged beginner, in whatever population group, I usually take a step back and re-evaluate what I'm using as my criteria for success. Remember this from our level one certification, "Safety, Fun, Learning"? I try to always put my students in a "safe" situation, and I always try to have fun (But you can only do what you can do on this one (You folks know what I mean)). In this lesson, I could care less if they aren't technically the best skier, just that they are sliding. I usually work with them until I see they are having a little trouble and slow down what I'm doing at that point to get more practice. Most of the stuff at the very beginning of the lesson can be rather dry (just how exciting can you make putting on your skis or side stepping

I have a student that is really struggling with say the straight run, we do a lot of straight runs. All kinds of straight runs. In my book, if we can balance on our skis and make them go in a straight line, we're a skier. Maybe not a very good one, but a skier none-the-less. Generally at the end of a two hour first time lesson, I want my students to have a good gliding wedge, a braking wedge to stop, and a few wedge turns under their belts. 99% of the time I get this outcome. But for some people, a Straight Run without falling down IS SUCCESS. (I know we've all had that one student that couldn't even do that.) You MUST let them know that. Yes they will be frustrated when they see all of the other students in the class wiz by them, but you must let them know or keep them for comparing themselves to other students in the group. Why? For all of the reasons pointed out above. You never know what someone's life experiences are and how they are going to relate/transfer them to skiing. Success for a particular student should be defined as where were our skills when we started and where were they when we finished. Then ask the question, "Did we improve?" Hopefully the answer will be yes (no matter how slight), and we will have had fun doing it. The hardest part about working with a student in this situation is keeping their attitude good. Letting them know they ARE improving helps, as well as spending the extra time with them to show your dedication to them (don't let them quit!!!). It means so much more the folks that strugle when they finally "Get it".

With skier visits declining every year, one of the biggest challenges facing our industry is 1). Getting folks to try skiing in the first place, & 2). Getting them to come back after they have tried it. There is only so much we can do about #1, but we can have a HUGE influence on #2. If folks have an awful first time lesson (boring, too many people in the lesson, no real instruction given, etc.) why would we expect them to come back. I don't know if I would. I know at Alta we treat the "first time on skis" lesson as one of the most important lessons our ski school offers. You could have an examiner or full cert teaching you at level 1. (One reason we can do this is we have a 100% certified staff) New skiers are our future. Get them locked into the ski school mentality early and often. If not we are letting the sport down. Personally I LOVE teaching level 1. Crazy ? Not really. As a ski teacher, my satisfaction comes from watching my student "get it" and seeing the joy on their faces when they do. I just go to share something REALLY cool with them. Most folks make more improvement on their first day, than any other single day in their skiing career. That equals Max Satisfaction in my book. Plus I've taught so many over the years, I've just about got it hard wired. I don't want to teach level 1 every day (variety is the spice of life), but when I pull that duty I don't bitch (Not even on powder days....) In fact I was thinking about volunteering for Level 1 this coming Sunday. The daughters of one of my wife's co-workers are going to be up and I want to make sure they have a good lesson.

1 more thing. A few years ago, Alta started a program "ski free after 3" on one of our beginner lifts. It has been a huge success. One thing that I've noticed is that Asian skier make up a significant part of the population group that utilizes that option when compared to the demographics of the state of Utah as a whole. I have no doubt as to their desire to learn. Quite often I've seen them really struggle on the hill. More than once I've pulled over, offered 2 mins. worth of help and been on my way (I've done this with other population groups as well). If we take the time to show the value of instruction to these folks maybe they'll ski with us in the future.

[ January 07, 2004, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Lonnie ]

Hi Folks,

Forgive me if this is repetitive, but I haven't read the last several posts here since I have been working so hard.

I have been thinking a lot about this thread. Two things come to mind:

First: Several seasons ago in my class that day was, among the rest of the group, some Asians and an orthepeadic surgeon. While on the lift with the doc I posed this to him and his reply was curious. He suggested that there are several subtle differences within the Homo Sapien Sapien specie in our skeletal formation, specifically around the pelvic girdle. I took this information and processed it coming from a cocky guy who was having a good time. Didn't persue it nor forgot it!

Second: I am in Southern Japan. Of course I am noticing the "R" vs "L" pronounciation thing and thinking - Japanese Americans don't speak like that, so it isn't anatomical. Maybe there is something in the Asian physical regimes from early childhood and motorskill development that contributes to this.

Any thoughts?

This is more of a lack of "practice" and learning than anything else. The 2 sounds for R and L are not in the asian language the same way they are in american english. If the person's "cradle" language or primary language was Chinese or Japanese it's quite possible they never learned how to make these sounds because they never heard them until later in life. Making the sounds are like any other learned skill. It would just take time and practice. If no one ever works to change these skills, just like in skiing, the pattern remains.