The Art of Skiing

Someone has suggested that I open a new thread so not to hijack other people's thread, good suggestion, thanks. So here it is, first of all, I apologize for any hijacking that I caused, and secondly, good to see all you folks still "alive and kicking," :) kudos. Here I start the thread, imo, the art of skiing lays in how the skier balances the centripetal force and centrifugal force, as well as balancing the gravity. The lines that the skier left behind reflect the spirits as well as the skills of the skier.

Originally Posted by Cookie Bewley Hale 
 

SE - If you find your friend's skiing intriguing also because of the spins and backwards skiing, check out this older flick.

Here's how we do it nowadays,

Have fun, :)

There's room for everyone on the mountain.  That skiing looks like it's easy on the body, probably a good way to ski for the very elderly.  When I get too old to tip and bend a ski into reverse camber and carve an arc I'll consider skiing that way.

I do agree that skiing is as much an art as a craft.  To me it's self-expression similar to playing music.

There is no right and wrong.

That said the more we learn of the craft the more we can ski challenging terrain with ease. 

To return to the music analogy, if all I can do is play in the keys of C and F, I can make beautiful music and enjoy myself immensely, and even impress/enthuse listeners.

But if I had to play with a band which called a tune in F# I would sound terrible and for lack of a better word, fail.    Same thing with tunes with simple chord changes vs. complex ones.

So from my point of view this type of skiing is limited in the terrain and conditions it can be used on - but certainly perfectly valid.

I would however be very leery by comments saying it was "better" or "more advanced" then other styles until I could see it being used all over the mountain and in difficult snow conditions.

Each skier has personal goals and unique movements. You can  spot a friend by their movements long before seeing them close up . An accomplished skier has balanced,smooth movements. Challenging your personal goals is what develops your skill level.

Very nice summary, Slider. 

If art is: the inclusion of self expression into an endeavor, skiing would be a near perfect sport to show it.  When riding a lift which skiers catch our eye?  Not just the really good ones but those that are showing something unique and personal might be line, a mixing of turns, rhythm, flexation, but different. 

To practice proper technique: musicians play scales, ballet dancers go through the positions, skaters do figures, a long list would be possible here.  We see a fair amount of PSIA bashing on the web for their boring skiing, well here is a thought  Would offer that forms demonstrations (the really boring turns you see ski instructors do) are an instructors equivalent, the elimination of personality to display technique.

If you put your soul into something just about anything can become an art, from mowing the lawn to hand writing.  The art may be an "IT" that makes our sport so enticing and addictive.

In the video above, aren't those mambo turns from the 50's/60's on new equipment?  They are a hoot, never tried them with a blocked hip, must make a note.  Try them in a gully or pipe, they are just fun.

Nice post SMJ..!   Combining your thoughts with the one from Stranger below...

... pretty much explains the wide variations we see in skiing.  

Stranger, I never really thought about it quite like that - but you're right as that's exactly what I do when teaching.  I try to eliminate everything not relevant to, or distracting from the core elements of what I'm trying to get across to students.

.ma
 

Thanks michael, and yes Stranger, it's like playing scales and arpeggios.

Berklee College of Music students used to be made fun of because they called it the "chord factory." Sounds similar to people ridiculing ski instructors skiing like robots.

I don't see running scales or arpeggios up and down as good improvisation, nor do I see boring ski drills as being good free skiing, but both serve to create skills that can then slip into muscle memory allowing one to improvise with style and creativity without stumbling, hitting wrong notes, falling or just all around losing their balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger 

 

In the video above, aren't those mambo turns from the 50's/60's on new equipment?

 

Not sure what "mambo turns" are; in the video, the spins were performed at the apexes and at the tops of S turns, which utilize extra centripetal force at apexes and centrifugal force at the tops; skis, foil @166.

 

They are a hoot, never tried them with a blocked hip, must make a note.  Try them in a gully or pipe, they are just fun.

 

Yes, fun we have,

 

 

What is "blocked hip"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz 

I would however be very leery by comments saying it was "better" or "more advanced" then other styles until I could see it being used all over the mountain and in difficult snow conditions.

I think that you're being nick picking. I've already showed you clips for tree skiing, powder skiing, trail skiing and as well as tonight gully skiing, just how big your "mountain" is?

 

Snowbender, Mambo is a turn based on rotation that has been around since Christ was in short pants.  Stein Erickson took it to a new and famous level, some even referred to it as 'the Stein turn'.  From straight running or traverse, with arms held a little wide, rotate the body the direction you want to turn rolling your ankles across the skis at same time to change edges.  In your "powder Gully" vid the right turns especially look like that turn. 

This guy is blocking his hip more than I normally do when playing with this turn.  It is something I will mess with on a cat track or on a blue to the lift or in a gully just because it is fun.  Blocking the hip is keeping the hips oriented with the feet, the effect of this in longer turns is to increase your edging ability compared to rotating them.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger 

 

Snowbender, Mambo is a turn based on rotation that has been around since Christ was in short pants.  Stein Erickson took it to a new and famous level, some even referred to it as 'the Stein turn'.  From straight running or traverse, with arms held a little wide, rotate the body the direction you want to turn rolling your ankles across the skis at same time to change edges.  In your "powder Gully" vid the right turns especially look like that turn. 

 

Thanks for the explanation. I went back to look the vid again, my right turns did look like what you've described, but what I did is what Stein Erickson would never do, it is called "inside ski turn." When you rotate the body to aid the turning, depends on where and how you rotate your body, you are either "lean," or "angulate," and most of times, I angulate. Angulation "encourage" inside ski turn, which makes the "line" changing direction quicker. And "inside ski turn," like walking, step/weigh on the right ski to turn right, and left ski to turn left, is different from the conventional outside ski dominated turn. Guess it again confirms that higher level skiing merges in Line-skiing in the end.

 

This guy is blocking his hip more than I normally do when playing with this turn.  It is something I will mess with on a cat track or on a blue to the lift or in a gully just because it is fun.  Blocking the hip is keeping the hips oriented with the feet, the effect of this in longer turns is to increase your edging ability compared to rotating them.

 

I'm still a bit lost in this one, what's the "hoot" about "blocked hip"?

 

 

This is a nice thread, and I agree completely with SkiMangoJazz's comparison of skiing drills with the musician's practicing of (boring) scales and such. It's not about perfecting the drill, or the arpeggio, chord change, or fingering. The drills and scales develop skills, in ways both obvious and specific, and subtle and global. They develop discipline, and only on a foundation of discipline can virtuosos truly express themselves. There is a vast difference between the disciplined athlete, musician, dancer, or engineer "improvising" and an unskilled, undisciplined person just wingin' it.

A true expert--and particularly an expert instructor--can quickly and easily imitate the style and movements of virtually any skier on the mountain. Upon the foundation of discipline developed through practicing exercises and drills, through intentionally exploring and mastering the entire spectrum of movement possibilities, they can ski any way they choose--not just the only way they can. That's freedom! When free-skiing, great skiers--including instructors--express their unique individual style. (Yes, unfortunately, it is true that some skiers and instructors have forgotten that the scales are not the music, and that drills are the means to freedom, not the goal themselves. But that's another story, and those people are far from experts.) But it is the highest level of achievement to be able to eliminate personal biases at will and demonstrate movements uncluttered by personal style, or to adopt the movements and mannerisms of another skier at will. Experts can ski like anyone. The reverse is not true!

And so, I like the skiing of Snowbender in his video clip. While it is not the style that I would usually prefer for myself, and it alone does not make him an expert, I contend that few skiers on any mountain could imitate him. Any true expert could easily imitate his movements and "style" if he wanted to. While it is true that few experts ski like him (very often), it is also true that anyone who cannot ski like Snowbender is certainly not an expert.

Anyone would benefit from turning Snowbender's "style" into a drill and seeking to master it, even if you don't like skiing that way. In ways that perhaps few might understand, Snowbender's "exercise" is helping him master many important nuances of expert skiing, including subtle edge control, mastery of rotational (angular) momentum, and fore-aft balance. As an exercise, he is developing a "touch" that few skiers have, but all would benefit from. 

And that's what drills really are. They are not skiing. They are an intentional divergence from one's personal "style" for the sake of broadening and deepening skill, touch, and movement options. Style is a great thing, but when it becomes a bias, it imprisons and limits, rather than freeing and supporting expression. Exercises are often an attempt to find pure form, unadulterated by personal bias, in the name of discipline. Discipline which, as skating champion Elvis Stojko famously said, sets you free!

Best regards,

Bob 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes 

A true expert--and particularly an expert instructor--can quickly and easily imitate the style and movements of virtually any skier on the mountain. 

While I agree with the above idea I also like to see how close a non-PMTS expert, after looking at PMTS two footed release on the mountain is demonstrating the same. A vid to show would even be better. :)

later,

carver

CarverHK--although I am loath to see this thread derailed into one of "those" discussions, let me assure you that there is nothing--absolutely nothing--"new," unique, or proprietary about the so-called "two-footed release." It is merely one of many movement options, and within it lie many variants exploiting distinct rotary mechanisms and combinations, and variations of fore-aft and foot-to-foot pressure. Edge release as the initiation of a turn--and in particular, release of the downhill ski edge without the need to reduce the pressure or lift it off the snow--is the fundamental essence of what PSIA once called the "Center Line(TM)" Model of skiing. The Model was introduced in the later 1980's, and the two-footed release (sometimes then called, unfortunately, a "moving platform") was the primary distinguisher from the edgeset-rebound/stem/step/pushoff initiation that had been the main focus for many years prior (although it was based on the recognition that racers had added the "release" initiation to their repertoire already for years). 

In many ways, the "two-footed release" you refer to is nothing more (and somewhat less, in my opinion) than what I call the "pivot-slip" drill. The main differences are that the version you bring up relies on a firmly planted, forward-angled pole plant to drive the rotational force--the lever arm--that pivots the skis (the pole plant is a critical necessity in descriptions I've heard and demonstrations I've seen), while a pivot slip involves both legs rotating against the resistance of each other, in the hip sockets, with no need for upper body involvement whatsoever. In truth, both variants make good drills and, yes, it is very easy for any half-decent and aware expert to imitate the version you describe. 

And that brings up the second major difference. The pivot slip is merely a drill intended to develop several critical and universal skiing skills, while the so-called "two-footed release" is often suggested as "the way to ski." As I've said, drills are not skiing!

It is ironic that the "two-footed release" you refer to traditionally arises from a prescribed progression that begins with a lift of the downhill ski--a move that is the distinct opposite of the tipping-based release of the "two-footed release." Done "properly," the two-footed release eliminates the need to remove pressure from the downhill ski in order to release its grip on the mountain (although it does not eliminate the possibility of reducing pressure, it merely adds options). That (the pushoff-based "lift") is an inexplicable glitch in the progression, sometimes leading students away (literally) from the "into-the-turn" movements of a real two-footed release. That's a problem, in my opinion.

Anyway, to make a long story short, and to return to your original inquiry, no, it is not at all difficult for a good and unbiased skier to make the movements you refer to. There are plenty of videos of pivot slips around to see it in action. Doing it with a "blocking pole plant," as your dogmatic methodology prescribes, only makes it easier. Still a useful exercise, though, it develops reliance on what I consider to be a bad habit--the blocking pole plant.

Best regards,

Bob Barnes

PS--unfortunately, I am on my way to Denver now, and will not be able to participate further in this discussion for some time. But I wouldn't be pushed into a debate on what are, actually, demonstrable facts anyway!

Thanks for the prompt reply, Mr. Barnes. Its great to have your description of the technical differences between the two fundamental drills of the two systems, PSIA pivot slip vs PMTS TFR. If you aware you taught me the basis of pivot slip here on this forum in earlier thread. I also learn TFR in pmts forum. I believe I can understand what you said about the differences. It just fun to see things in real vid.  
 

<hijack>

The two-footed release promoted by "that system" does not require a pole plant and is not a variant of the standard pivot-slip drill, although there is some superficial resemblance.  I've had fun alternating between the two when a curious old-timer instructor asked why my "pivot slips" seemed different.  He was a strong traditional skier and could do amazing ski ballet on ski blades -- finely honed rotary skills.  He could see something was different with my inside ski, but never could grok the 2FR movement pattern.  I think of the two-footed release as the anti--pivot-slip drill.  You are right that upper body involvement is important to the two-footed release drill.  It is highly dependent on counterbalance and counteracting as it is largely a balance drill.  The reason it is usually introduced with a pole plant is to aide shaky balance and encourage counteracting.  Clearly, for your purposes the pivot slip is a superior drill.

</hijack>

Sharpedges,

Sorry, I could not resist jumping in, in Bobs absence.  

Why would I want to learn to do a task that caused "shaky balance" as you said, and consequently a need to do something else to counter it's affect?

Practicing these drills myself, it seemed as if I was trying to artificially create angles, more appropriate for higher speeds, at slower speeds, which required extra effort to remain in balance and made the turning rely on ski sidecut and flex.  Why contort like a pretzel when it is not necessary?  The two footed release movement presents different personalities at slow speeds than at higher speeds, with minimal forward momentum and with more substantial forward momentum.  When one is trying to perform a two footed release at slower speeds and not permit any pivoting, these body contortions, to counter balance and the reliance on ski side cut and flex to create turning, become necessary.  It would seem more productive to learn to control and modulate the rotary input to blend appropriately to achieve optimum results with the least amount of effort.

One of the beauties of the pivot slip exercise is it does not require any arbitrary movements or counter movements to balance.  A pivot slip can be initiated from a dead stop provided the skier stands and moves accurately.  It can be done very slowly and deliberately.  Discovering this proper movement blend is the key to a smooth two footed release.  As we add more forward momentum the rotary input can be decreased and more edge angle can be introduced to progressively move toward the carving end of the spectrum.   

I believe the by product of trying to create higher edge angles and eliminate the rotary movements at slower speeds is what causes the balance challenges you highlight above, and creates the need for arbitrary "counterbalance" movements.  It also severely limits control of turning radius.

I think its not about which technique or drill is better. It's how close an expert can perform reasonably close to anyone on the mountain. I just take two footed release for example because its easy to see when someone is not doing it properly. Any other example serving the same purpose should serve to prove the same.

If you untip your skis to the point that the edges are no longer (edit released) engaged in a traverse without adding any rotary torque between the boot and the ski, the ski will turn down hill. and it has nothing to do with sidecut.  Just sayin'.

Back for a moment....

Bud--great reply--thanks!

Carver--I agree--both variations, and any other you can conceive of, can be worthwhile drills to bolster your repertoire. The true expert has done that, and continues to learn. However, while I maintain that all movement options are valid and important in skiing, I also maintain that some of those important movements are bad habits. In that regard, only the true pivot slip, as I have gone to great lengths to describe here in the past, reinforces the movement patterns you want as habits, as "default movements," even as virtuosity entails using every situational variation when needed or desired. 

Ghost--you're right that sidecut has nothing to do with it, and it does often seem as well that the skis somehow magically want to turn and "seek the fall line" when released. However, if they are actually to start turning (changing the direction they point, pivoting about some axis), some torque must apply. For every force, there is of course an equal and opposite counterforce. In this case, the counterforce can arise from the counter-rotation of the upper and lower body, from the resistance of the snow through a blocking pole plant that stabilizes the upper body, from shifting pressure aft on the skis such that there is more resistance to sliding sideways at the tails, or from the "fulcrum mechanism" of each leg rotating against the resistance of the other. It can also arise from a combination of these factors, or from rotational momentum generated prior to the release, as in "upper body rotation" or a "rotary pushoff." Without anything to generate torque, the skis and your body will simply slip sideways when the edges are released.

The true pivot slip is an attempt to isolate and reinforce the leg rotation mechanism (and significant use of any of the others will result in a failure, if it is an instructor exam maneuver). Of all the rotary mechanisms, leg rotation is the only one capable of sustained, precise, guidance of the skis throughout a turn, allowing both powerful twisting or the subtlest of steering as needed. (Blocking pole plant, of course, provides torque only when the pole is planted; upper body rotation is powerful, but produces all of its rotational momentum prior to the skis even releasing; counter-rotation is quick, but turns the skis one way only while the upper body twists the other way--therefore cannot be sustained throughout a turn).

With this understanding, I recommend that skiers truly interested in learning go out and try to master each and every one of these variations, while practicing the true pivot slip with leg rotation the most, to hammer in this movement pattern as the habitual "default" technique.

Best regards,

Bob

If you integrate the force of gravity pulling down and the force of friction resisting along the ski, and consider that the bindings are closer to the rear of the ski, you will see that gravity and friction supply all the torque that's needed.  Of course you can hurry the movement along if you want to, but you don't have to.

Why would I want to learn to do a task that caused "shaky balance" as you said? 

Many newer skiers have room for balance improvement when doing any slow drill -- they haven't developed their balance to a high level.  It has nothing to do with 2FR per se and everything to do with learning to balance at slow speed.  Skiers increase balance by pushing the envelope of their current balancing ability.

Why contort like a pretzel when it is not necessary?  

To develop bullet-proof balance for steeps and ice.  To practice on groomers that which leads to strong skiing off the groomers. (It's a drill after all, and exaggerated movements in drills ensure that it will carry over to everyday skiing.)

One of the beauties of the pivot slip exercise is it does not require any arbitrary movements or counter movements to balance. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder .  I'm not sure what you mean by arbitrary in this case, but focusing on balance seems a reasonable task in a drill ... it will translate into lots of fun freeskiing later.

It also severely limits control of turning radius. 

The 2FR usually results in a 180* change of direction in a distance of 1/2 - 1 ski length down the fall line.  Another use of the planted pole is to verify the short radius of the turn.  If the pole isn't kept vertical and planted through the turn, then the radius is undesirably large (for the drill.) 

Given some of the challenges that Bud has made before and his style of skiing, the 2FR may not be a good drill for him.  But he's lucky to have his pivot slips which don't do too much for me and my style of skiing.  In the end, it averages out and we each have a good tool to hone our preferred way to play on ice and snow.  Of course, Bud's been having some fun because as an expert skier, former division demo team member, and psia examiner he already knew these answers before he made his post....

The PSIA Centerline parallel turn demo is a two footed release.  In fact the movements encouraged from the first turns are toward a release to initiate.   There are certainly a variety of drills and exercises to promote this goal!   I would love to spend time skiing with you Sharpedges and comparing and contrasting our preferences.  I am sure you could emulate mine and I, yours.

I would love to see how you can turn your skis 180 degrees in a matter of 1/2 to 1 ski length and somehow avoid rotary input!?  I suspect some strong anticipation release occurring?!

I apologize to the OP's for the slight hijack but we are really talking about perceptions of our art and the difference in brush strokes

Good point, Ghost. Of course, it does throw another dart at the current trendy "wisdom" that you should try to "get forward," pressure your ski tips, pull your feet back behind your hips, or any such related ideas, to initiate a turn! But I agree--one important component of a good pivot slip, as well as the initiation of a basic offensive gliding parallel turn (that begins with an edge release), is that you find at least a "neutral" balance point, pressure centered beneath the tibia (back of the arch, just forward of the heel)--not forward! This "neutral" point does put more pressure on the aft part of the ski, freeing the tips to turn down the hill with ease.

Best regards,

Bob

I knew you knew bob.

It's amazing what's possible when the artist is not locked into a specific genre. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman 

The PSIA Centerline parallel turn demo is a two footed release.

Honestly its the first time I hear that. Just curious. Any video so that its easier to see how close it is to the PMTS version. Thanks in advance.  :)

Do you guys  realize that you're being trolled by Ichin Shin aka taichiskiing

who was banninated from Epicski a couple of years back?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt 

Do you guys  realize that you're being trolled by Ichin Shin aka taichiskiing

who was banninated from Epicski a couple of years back?

 

My kids watch some cartoon that has "Airbenders," "Earthbenders," etc. in it (I'm realizing I've lost a couple decades of popular culture, though I know more bro-brah than my kids -- kinda funny) and I think the Snowbender handle refers to that and ties back to the Tai Chi thing.  Since waist-steering was endorsed by some prominent forum posters for several years, though, and flatboarding has been pushed by others, the whole tai chi thing in a way never left.