Ski failure in high speed turn possible?

#1

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 9:50am

deliberate1

Joined: February 2004
Location: Maine
Post Count: 799

Last Sunday I fell at Sugarloaf and dislocated my shoulder. I am posting this to satisfy my curiostiy about the possiblity that I may have "overskied" the ski, if such a dynamic exists.
I was traveling at 40-45mph. Skis (Blizzard Supersonics in 167cm) were freshly tuned and were carving incredibly well on the hardpack with couple inches of loose granular on top. As I remember, I was deep into the apex of this fast tight turn. Felt utterly stable, weight stacked with counter and angulation (just like Rick Fastman Schnellman taught me). Next thing I know, I feel the the sensation of hitting hard with a searing pain in the right shoulder. I slide to a stop and lay there, putting my marbles back together. While I have never dislocated a shoulder before, it was obvious that is what I did. Got to my feet and within a few seconds, the shoulder self-reduced just from the weight of the arm dangling. A few more minutes just getting oriented (a bit of shock I imagine) and skied (bad idea) down to first aid where they stablized the arm. Off to ER. Thankfully, nothing fractured - humeral head in good shape. Got a fancy brace. Saw my doc two days ago and will see ortho guy soon.
I have skied 45 years. And I have crashed before - though never when things were going so right or I was going so fast. And usually there is a moment when you know that something bad is going to happen. That things are not going right or are abouto to go real wrong. You catch an edge or you hit a bump wrong and have time to contemplate your fate. There was nothing like this with this fall. One moment I am up and moving well, and the next it is all bad. No transition. No explanation. A catastrophic and instantaneous failure that puzzles me.
I suppose I could have hit a patch of ice and the weighted ski could have kicked out. But I think my COM was right on, and the skis had a new tune and were tenacious. Perhaps I was not as angulated as I thought and got too far inside the turns and lost the edge as the pressure built, but, again, it did not feel that way. And a guy came over to me after and said he saw the whole thing and it puzzled him because I had "great technique."
So I am wondering if the ski could have failed in the turn. I have never given this much thought until this incidenct. Can a ski, under great pressure (bent) instantly rebound (straighten) and cause the kind of edge failure I experienced?
David

#2

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 9:59am

csavage

Joined: March 2009
Location: Helltown, TX
Post Count: 241

Hmmmm.....I'm thinking about about, at certain speeds in my BMW in a turn, the lateral G forces will overcome all the technology of my Goodyear Eagles and I'll slide sideways.
I'm awaiting confirmation that such a thing happens in skiing.

#3

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:01am

MojoMan

Joined: December 2007
Post Count: 871

How much do you weigh and how tall are you? Using Physics as a consideration, I personally wouldn't trust many recreational skis to hold their stability while executing turns on ice at 45 MPH. Outside of a straight-run, I would think most recreational skis would be chattering all over the place at 45MPH.

#4

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:02am

ZeroGravity

Joined: January 2008
Post Count: 194

Hope you heal soon. Any one of a thousand things could have happened and you may never know but my wife had a ski that was broken in the shovel and it took a very keen eye to see that it was. It was ever so slightly bent up and you could only see it when the skis were base-to-base and you were looking for it, but the one ski chattered a little more on the hard stuff and never seemed to have as much grip. It could be something like this, and that it chattered slightly in the turn, coupled with on the edge or somewhere less than optimal balance and down you went.

#5

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:12am

deliberate1

Joined: February 2004
Location: Maine
Post Count: 799

Me: 173lbs and 5'9
These skis do chatter, but usually if just running flat or with little bend. Though have to say that as my carving technique improved this season, I sensed these skis were no longer enough under the conditions when I fell. A pair of new hart Pulses (180) and Phoenix (174) delivered this week are sitting crated in my van. Can't help but think I might not be writing this if I were on either of those.

#6

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:22am

Steve2ski

Joined: March 2005
Post Count: 278

Quote:

Originally Posted by deliberate1

Last Sunday I fell at Sugarloaf and dislocated my shoulder. I am posting this to satisfy my curiostiy about the possiblity that I may have "overskied" the ski, if such a dynamic exists.
I was traveling at 40-45mph. Skis (Blizzard Supersonics in 167cm) were freshly tuned and were carving incredibly well on the hardpack with couple inches of loose granular on top. As I remember, I was deep into the apex of this fast tight turn. Felt utterly stable, weight stacked with counter and angulation (just like Rick Fastman Schnellman taught me). Next thing I know, I feel the the sensation of hitting hard with a searing pain in the right shoulder. I slide to a stop and lay there, putting my marbles back together. While I have never dislocated a shoulder before, it was obvious that is what I did. Got to my feet and within a few seconds, the shoulder self-reduced just from the weight of the arm dangling. A few more minutes just getting oriented (a bit of shock I imagine) and skied (bad idea) down to first aid where they stablized the arm. Off to ER. Thankfully, nothing fractured - humeral head in good shape. Got a fancy brace. Saw my doc two days ago and will see ortho guy soon.
I have skied 45 years. And I have crashed before - though never when things were going so right or I was going so fast. And usually there is a moment when you know that something bad is going to happen. That things are not going right or are abouto to go real wrong. You catch an edge or you hit a bump wrong and have time to contemplate your fate. There was nothing like this with this fall. One moment I am up and moving well, and the next it is all bad. No transition. No explanation. A catastrophic and instantaneous failure that puzzles me.
I suppose I could have hit a patch of ice and the weighted ski could have kicked out. But I think my COM was right on, and the skis had a new tune and were tenacious. Perhaps I was not as angulated as I thought and got too far inside the turns and lost the edge as the pressure built, but, again, it did not feel that way. And a guy came over to me after and said he saw the whole thing and it puzzled him because I had "great technique."
So I am wondering if the ski could have failed in the turn. I have never given this much thought until this incidenct. Can a ski, under great pressure (bent) instantly rebound (straighten) and cause the kind of edge failure I experienced?
David

S**t happens, Great technique or not. I had a similar incidence happen to me some 15 yrs ago and I still have a scar on my wrist to remind me of it being slid across frozen granular taking off skin and flesh.
What is evident is that you over-skied the ski's ability to hold an edge or your ability to hold the ski's on edge (possibly even by to much weight on one ski, I believe as pressure builds you must start reducing pressure on the outside ski by increasing pressure on the inside ski) this type of reaction would be visually unnoticeable by observers.

#7

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:40am

Whiteroom

Joined: October 2005
Post Count: 3,500

Sounds like 'Boot-Out' to me.

skiershop.com

#8

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:46am

ecimmortal

Joined: June 2009
Post Count: 577

This is a lot of overanalyzing about falling in a sport that is dependent on countless variables. Get well soon.

#9

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:46am

Nobody

Joined: September 2000
Location: Italy
Post Count: 3,676

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Sounds like 'Boot-Out' to me.

Seconded. by what the OP says, it looks like one of those rare cases that even us, everyday skier can experience...
It happened to me and the occurence left me totally bewildered, until I realized that it was a boot out.
How did I came to that conclusion? Boot First buckle (Tecnica TNT racing) was torn...

Una salus victis, nullam sperare salutem

#10

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:48am

deliberate1

Joined: February 2004
Location: Maine
Post Count: 799

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Sounds like 'Boot-Out' to me.

Define please?

#11

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:50am

tylrwnzl

Joined: October 2009
Location: Muncy, PA
Post Count: 880

Just curious, you said you don't really know what happened, you were carving and then felt a searing pain in your shoulder. Any chance you hit your head, not enough to end up with a concussion, but enough that you possibly don't remember that split second you hit a patch of ice and your ski slid out?

The way I see it there are only two seasons: Ski Season and Fantasizing about Ski Season.

#12

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:55am

deliberate1

Joined: February 2004
Location: Maine
Post Count: 799

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylrwnzl

Just curious, you said you don't really know what happened, you were carving and then felt a searing pain in your shoulder. Any chance you hit your head, not enough to end up with a concussion, but enough that you possibly don't remember that split second you hit a patch of ice and your ski slid out?

Certainly possible. But I was wearing a helmet and my right arm was under my head, hyperextended as I was sliding. Can not say anying for certain, except the result.

#13

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:55am

DtEW

Joined: February 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, USA
Post Count: 508

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecimmortal

This is a lot of overanalyzing about falling in a sport that is dependent on countless variables.

People are just bored at work.

Also, get well soon.

#14

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 10:56am

Sugaree

Joined: October 2006
Post Count: 878

The 167 length seems very short to me. Knowing the conditions at the 'loaf right now I think your boot and ski and everything else slipped out at that speed.

Question....What time of day and what trail did this happen on.??

I skied this past Sunday and Comp Hill looked in great shape around noontime as I spied it from the Superquad. I barrelled into the top half going very fast only to figure out that the loose snow on top was supported by the hard snow beneath. I was slipping out every turn for 20 before I could check my speed.

The morning groomers are very trustworthy. More care is needed from 11am on to avoid....well, a dislocated shoulder.!!

How long you out for.??

Get well soon.

#15

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 11:15am

deliberate1

Joined: February 2004
Location: Maine
Post Count: 799

Quote:

Originally Posted by DtEW

People are just bored at work.

Also, get well soon.

Thanks for the well-wishes. Just posting this as a post mortem and to learn from the experience to avoid it in the future. Not all of us possess "ecimmortality."

#16

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 11:35am

Sugaree

Joined: October 2006
Post Count: 878

David....What trail.....What time.??

Ron

#17

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 11:37am

deliberate1

Joined: February 2004
Location: Maine
Post Count: 799

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugaree

The 167 length seems very short to me. Knowing the conditions at the 'loaf right now I think your boot and ski and everything else slipped out at that speed.

Question....What time of day and what trail did this happen on.??

I skied this past Sunday and Comp Hill looked in great shape around noontime as I spied it from the Superquad. I barrelled into the top half going very fast only to figure out that the loose snow on top was supported by the hard snow beneath. I was slipping out every turn for 20 before I could check my speed.

The morning groomers are very trustworthy. More care is needed from 11am on to avoid....well, a dislocated shoulder.!!

How long you out for.??

Get well soon.

I was on King Pine - the second to last ptich. It was around 1:00 and my third run on it. Thought I had it pretty well scoped out for that fast run....
Not sure how long "vacation" will be. I am in this fancy brace that hold my arm at a 90 degree angle straight out - perfect for holding a ski pole as I told my wife.

#18

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 11:41am

eastskier44

Joined: August 2009
Location: OH
Post Count: 50

The Supersonic is not crazy stiff, and has a relatively small radius if I'm not mistaken. Going 45, I wouldn't be surprised if the ski just gave out. You may have hit ice, or possibly your ski lost its edge and you fell out from under your ski. Get well soon.

#19

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 11:53am

crgildart

Joined: December 2007
Location: The Bull City
Post Count: 12,884

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Sounds like 'Boot-Out' to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deliberate1

Define please?

"Boot out" happens when you get the ski so high on edge and tipped so far that your boot hits the snow pushig the ski edge off the snow. If you lost edge all of a sudden that is a likely culprit assuming the binding didn't release.

As for the ski itself.. 45 mph is asking a lot of a + 70 waist ski, 45 mph is asking a lot of a sub 19 radius ski. Certaily do-able, but I'd be easing up on the edge at that speed.

I hope you heal fast. IIRC, this is two seasons in a row for you getting hurt-or twice in three seasons? At least this time nobody took you out from behind. Maybe that's why you were going so fast D? Trying to outrun the out of control gapers?

Turn it back a notch when you get back out unless you're on SG skis with risers.

I'd rather be skiing

#20

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 12:02pm

jdietch

Joined: December 2009
Post Count: 3

Could be anything. I did something similar a few years back at Waterville. I was flying down Utter Abandon and just lost it. I ended up spraining my thumb and tearing my rotator cuff (full tear). Didn't bother to get the latter diagnosed for over a year and I've been lucky to avoid surgery.

As to the cause, I could have booted out or simply exerted too much torsional pressure on my binding and caused it to pre-release. Either way, it points to operator error. As to your question of a ski "failing", I tend to doubt it unless you could actually see or feel degradation in terms of your ski's structural integrity.

#21

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 12:50pm

deliberate1

Joined: February 2004
Location: Maine
Post Count: 799

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart

I hope you heal fast. IIRC, this is two seasons in a row for you getting hurt-or twice in three seasons? At least this time nobody took you out from behind. Maybe that's why you were going so fast D? Trying to outrun the out of control gapers?

Turn it back a notch when you get back out unless you're on SG skis with risers.

Thanks for yours. I am touched that you remember my collission two years ago - February vacations not good for me. Was at Jay Peak when a woman took me ot from behind and explained when I came to that I was such a "lovely skier" she just wanted to ski behind me - and stick her ski in between my legs causing a mild concusssion and knee strain. Got taken out by a snow boarder at a ski clinic with Rick Schnellman this summer. Fortunately, bottom of his board hit my sidewall and catapulted me away from him. No harm done. The wounds this past Sunday were purely self-inflicted.
The hart Phoenix (174) and Pulses (180 ) waiting in the wings both have VIST plates and bindings. They will be far more secure underfoot. And I will just have to tone it down a bit. But making high speed carved turns is just so much fun for this old tail scarving foot steerer.

#22

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 12:55pm

deliberate1

Joined: February 2004
Location: Maine
Post Count: 799

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdietch

Could be anything. I did something similar a few years back at Waterville. I was flying down Utter Abandon and just lost it. I ended up spraining my thumb and tearing my rotator cuff (full tear). Didn't bother to get the latter diagnosed for over a year and I've been lucky to avoid surgery.

As to the cause, I could have booted out or simply exerted too much torsional pressure on my binding and caused it to pre-release. Either way, it points to operator error. As to your question of a ski "failing", I tend to doubt it unless you could actually see or feel degradation in terms of your ski's structural integrity.

I am amazed that you did so well with a full thickness tear. Most people I know get cut for that one.
"Failure" of the ski was not the reight term for me to use. That suggests the ski crumbled, delaminated or had some other structural melt down. Sounds like it could have been boot out - pushing the ski beyond its geometry. Or just a plain old fall from driver error. Either way, lesson learned.

#23

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 12:58pm

Ghost

Joined: October 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Post Count: 11,113

Blizard G-Force supersonic has a 14.5 m sidecut radius. If you were making a turn at the sidecut radius, you would be pulling 2.8 gs. In order to hold 2.8 gs you would have to tip the ski to a pretty high anlge. A tipping angle at wich the sidecut interaction with the snow would be calling for a much sharper turn and even higher g-gorce.

What the above physics tells us is that, most likely you were not making a pure edge-locked arc, but that the curve you were making was somewhat bigger than the arc the ski would make if it were suddenly to dig in and move in the direction of its edge.

It is possible that the ski suddenly did try to make the turn that would normally be dialed up by that high tipping angle, despite your high speed, and your binding let go, saving your leg.

Or you could have just hit a patch of ice, maybe thinking about it will refresh your memory.

Bottom line. Although the ski might feel perfectly capable of ripping it up at a mile a minute, you should get a long radius ski if you can't resist the lure of higher speeds.

#24

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 1:13pm

deliberate1

Joined: February 2004
Location: Maine
Post Count: 799

Bottom line. Although the ski might feel perfectly capable of ripping it up at a mile a minute, you should get a long radius ski if you can't resist the lure of higher speeds.

Point taken.

#25

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 2:15pm

Richie-Rich

Joined: March 2006
Location: Strong Island, NY
Post Count: 5,171

So many variables, its nearly impossible to figure out what went wrong. If we had video playback we would then be at a good position to give educated postulations about your fall.

I would say that unless your skis flex so badly that they deformed past their intended design, you did not over-ski them. I would put the blame on technique and the surface conditions. But with that being said you were also ripping around in rather short skis, if anything I would think its short radius would have whipped you into a sharp turn with such force as to eject you at the apex.

Heal well.

#26

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 2:58pm

bjohansson

Joined: July 2004
Location: Albany, NY
Post Count: 1,026

I wouldn't discount boot-out. I've experienced it at slightly slower speeds on steep, hard slopes and the loss of control was instantaneous...not progressive at all. One instant, you're locked into a tight carved turn and the next instant, you're sliding down the hill on your side. I was lucky to get away with only wounded pride...

#27

Rating: 0

2/19/10 at 3:20pm

tromano

Joined: November 2004
Location: Logan, UT
Post Count: 2,426

Quote:

Originally Posted by deliberate1

Can a ski, under great pressure (bent) instantly rebound (straighten) and cause the kind of edge failure I experienced?
David

So you were in the apex of a turn and then fell. Did you fall to the inside of he turn or outside? Did you stop suddenly / get whiped around, did your feet jsut come out form underyou? Which way were you turning when you fell? Were your skis still atached or did they release?

#28

Rating: 0

2/21/10 at 5:52am

jdietch

Joined: December 2009
Post Count: 3

I am pretty lucky with the tear. My surgeon was skeptical at first about my reluctance to have surgery, but later admitted that I still had pretty good range of motion and that gain from surgery might not be worth it given the length of the rehab afterward. With that said, it has been 4 years since the original injury and my shoulder is again bothering me. I might go in for a MRI to have him see what's what, but not until after I go the Snowbird in March!

#29

Rating: 0

2/21/10 at 11:43am

Ghost

Joined: October 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Post Count: 11,113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie-Rich

So many variables, its nearly impossible to figure out what went wrong. If we had video playback we would then be at a good position to give educated postulations about your fall.

I would say that unless your skis flex so badly that they deformed past their intended design, you did not over-ski them. I would put the blame on technique and the surface conditions. But with that being said you were also ripping around in rather short skis, if anything I would think its short radius would have whipped you into a sharp turn with such force as to eject you at the apex.

Heal well.

If you were skiing over 40 mph, you were pushing the skis past their intended design. If they were to edge-lock on a hard surface at that speed in anything close to their design radius (say half the side cut radius for arguments sake), you would be ejected quicker than you could drop a hot coal.

Ditto for the flex-radius.

#30

Rating: 0

2/21/10 at 12:27pm

bosrocker51

Joined: January 2010
Post Count: 48

you don't remember a momentary (split second) slipping before you hit the snow? Given your experience and the skis, I would look toward the snow conditions as a cause... (added) if indeed you were centered over your skis and the binding did not release, I would blame the ski structure and edge as well as the snow for probable cause of the fall... the 167's are a bit short for hotdogging at 40 MPH, and a competition GS type ski at 185+cm would hold much better. Keep recouperating, hang in there.

Edited by bosrocker51 - 3/20/10 at 6:25am

bosrocker51
somewhere in Massachusetts

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