Utah ski conditions when it doesn't snow.

Been to Utah a few times and almost every time its snowed a few days at least out of the trip, and/or had snowed recently.

I am gonna be there next week and as much as I want to stay positive the forecasts for snow are getting worse, not better. Basically saying the whole week of 2/14-2/20 will be high pressure overhead no snow. And slim to no chance of snow this week also with slim quickly heading out of town. Not sure but seems like a week or so since any significant snow.

So my question is what should I expect as far as slope conditions if they basically have had no snow for 2 weeks? I assume there is no snow making there so does it get like the east, all skied off and/or hard, in other words, does it suck like a typical eastern slope (except this year) ? Or does it manage to stay soft, albeit no powder, somehow?

Thanks.

 

Conz, as you know, I'll be there as well. I have skied under all kinds of different Utah conditions as well as those you describe. It depends. If high pressure results in unusally warm conditions, it can be like spring sking. If still cold, I find best strategy is to hit early before stuff gets skied off. Usually, it's still pretty good as far as groomers go. However, I've gotten spoiled and of course would like fresh powder. So not great, but not bad. I've never had what I would describe as awful(except for Snowbird last year when it had been super warm in March and then got very cold freezing all to ice. But that was just one day as then snow started falling) . But you're right forecast is not good. Assuming no fresh pow, pray for sun and warm as it softens things up. I will say that what places are good may be affected by weather so probably good to be flexible. Snowbasin is particuarly good fro groomers. Strangely, for me Deer Valley is not so good as it always seems to me that groomers get icy in afternoon. Maybe a result of too many people only sking groomers or stuff getting groomed too much. Just my 2 cents. 

Actually, another place that's good for groomers is Brighton. Their groomers ave these fun rolly polly things with lots of variation. As opposed to most places where it's just a straight shot down.

Maui Steve is right, the big question is what the temps are like... are you getting the freeze/thaw or are things staying cold.  You'll have *totally* different conditions in those 2 cases, just like back east.  I find that as long as you stay out of the freeze/thaw cycle, the slopes don't get quite as icy as what I remember growing up back east, but it still gets pretty seriously packed out after 2 weeks of no snow.

Conz, there is hope for some snow this weekend.Not huge, but hopefully enough to cover up hardpack. One weather model says snow, the other says no snow. So NWS says wait and see. If happens, at least it would get refreshed right before we get there. Would be even better for mdf and boys as I believe they ski this weekend.Keep fingers crossed. 

Yup I am keeping them crossed guys. Lol I was mapping out the route from SLC to Taos today. Uhhhh...no, thats not gonna happen I can't last more than 3-4 hours in a car. But Jackson is not that far. Only thing is they are stuck in the same cycle as SLC. Everything is getting pushed south so they are not looking much better.
Hmmm, whats the drive from SLC to Reno.....?

Naw, I'm gonna tuff it out. We'll have fun and at least I know I can ski on boilerplate, that's how I learned back at Huntah. You haven't skied "skied off" until you ski Hunter after lunch on a Sunday! Plus these AC30 are like rails on ice. Anyway I want to meet everyone and who knows might just get surprised by the snow gods.

Conz, i think you will be pleasantly surprised how good the snow will likely be in the Cottonwoods.  The moguls will be building up, but the sun is not yet high enough in the sky to do its' severe damage, except on slopes that face towards the South.  Most all of Snowbird faces due north as does much of Alta.  Many of the nooks and crannies will still be sweet.

One of the reasons I prefer Jan/Feb to March is for this reason, no snow for 10 days is a completely different story in March than it is in Feb.  For sure stay out of Park City if there hasn't been new snow for a week.  If Snowbasin has a good base, then much of it will still ski fine, esp the long cruisers.  The best cruising in Utah.  Hopefully there will be 6" of surprise snow to freshen things up. 

One of the reasons Utah rules is because the odds for good snow are always in your favor compared to anywhere else.  (with destination travel picking a spot weeks/months in advance).  I've made quite a few late Feb trips and NEVER have had bad snow.  Even if it hadn't snowed for a week, the CC snow was always crisp and cold, with no melt cycle.

I see your trip is 6 days from now.  I always focus tight on the forecast before my trips, and I've noticed the forecasts are pretty much useless more than 5 days out.  Likely your skiing will still be very, very good.  But of course powder or recent snow is always the best.  I'm rooting for you.  I'll be there March 7-9.

Edited by SnowbirdDevotee - 2/8/10 at 7:36pm

My worst weeks in Utah have still been better than many of my best weeks back east.  I've been at Alta during high-pressure periods (as long as 3 weeks worth by the time I arrived) and it really just means you need to be smarter about choosing trails and snow, be aware of exposures, know where the sun/shade lines are, mix in some groomer runs, etc.  Don't think of it in terms of east coast conditions, or skis.  One of my worst mistakes was bringing out my eastern hardpack skis for a high pressure trip.  They were worthless toothpicks on anything but groomers.  I'd stick with wide substantial skis no matter what.

I looked at the forecast and they are saying for next week mostly sunny, highs in the low-mid 30's, lows in the low 20's. So does that qualify as a freeze thaw cycle? To me it actually sounds like it will be nice and sunny, not too cold,  no wind. Sounds like bluebird conditions actually. If the snow is decent sounds sweet!

I'm also keeping an eye on this system since I'll be there the following week. Was planning on bringing my K2 Strykers (74 underfoot) and rent if we get a dump, though comments like that make me wonder if I should just rent something from the get go (Gotamas look fun. =D).

It depends on what terrain you like to ski.  If you venture off trail, you'll probably want something substantial, as you may be dealing with snow that has been affected by sun/shade and temperature.  Could be firm crud and bumps, which tends to toss around smaller skis.  I'll be on my Motherships no matter what, as they handle the full spectrum.  I just put a good sharp edge on them if the snow is firm.

Mmm, there's the rub. On this trip I'd like to venture out to honeycomb (at Solitude) and the sort for the first time and have no idea how I'll take to it. Not quite off trail but I honestly have no idea what to expect. Normally for me I'm on trail (though grooming isn't a factor, like trees and bumps) but have no idea where to put stuff like Honeycomb.

Since I'll be skiing mostly alone I don't foresee being truly off trail (not even sure how wise a honeycomb would be). Really I just have no idea what to expect out there so part of me wants to grab something that'll float but since I'll be skiing bigger and steeper than what I'm used to part of me wants to cling to my normal skis like a safety blanket. 

Not me.  My worst trip to Utah couldn't hold a candle to some of my average trips to VT.  2+ weeks of no snow with enough borderline freezing temps to set everything off-trail up nice and solid made for a week of skiing groomers.  Now, from talking to people, that was one of the worst mid-winter dry spells in many years, I'm not saying that's typical.  But Utah's not a magical place... when it's bad, it's bad, just like anywhere else.  It's just not bad nearly as often as most other places.

I was hoping for a big dump of snow next week since I will be in Jackson Hole for 9 days but it seems as if that is not going to happen. I don't mean to thread hijack but hows the skiing off the groomers at JH when there hasnt been a good snowfall recently? I love skiing anything but groomers (after a few runs of them I get a little bored) so hopefully its pretty good. It is going to be an awesome trip I just hope they get some snow.

 I don't expect any new snow over the next week or just a trace amount. The skiing has been so so and with the temperatures we've been having, I expect it to remain the same. At Alta Catherine's is mostly crud now, but there are still some very good pockets and while East Castle was great when they opened it on Sunday, that boat has sailed. At Solitude, Honeycomb tends to get very cruddy and manky in open areas, but in the trees the snow stays softer and is better. I've been alternating between my 75mm Stöckli XLs and a pair of G3 Tonics with an AT setup. I wouldn't go any fatter and would plan to stay in the 80-90mm range if I was coming here and could only bring one pair of skis. From the reports and stories I've heard, something like the Sultan 85s would hit the spot.

Thanks for the update ZMan. I coming with AC30s so hopefully they will help cut through the crud and junk. Even if there is some soft pockets left I doubt it gonna be anything I need superfats for.

Whats Ballroom look like do you know? I am guessing a big icy mogul run about now.....

Awesome info Zman, I'll just ride what I got (74mm) unless the forecast changes in some massive way over the next week. Advantages to riding what I know best probably outweigh 5mm underfoot.

Can't wait to get out there!

 Here's a video from one of my Alta trips last year where we were dealing with a high pressure snowpack and some very junky snow in Catherine's area:



I was on 183cm Head Monster iM82 skis, which is a fairly good all-mountain ski with metal layers, but you can see they are getting tossed around pretty badly.  They felt like toothpicks.  

My local friend in the green jacket (Porter) was on his "everyday" Legend XXL skis (110mm in the waist if I remember right, with metal layers, and in the 190cm length range), and I was really impressed how much better they were handling the crappy snow, so I went back and demoed a pair later in the day.  The main difference is that the wider, bigger skis had a more advantageous scale compared to the crappy snow with all its ruts, chunks, etc.  They really steamrolled over everything.  With smaller skis, I was finding and feeling every little nook and cranny in the snow, and it was both tense and tiring.  Hard to build up confidence.  

So that experience sold me on the idea of skiing substantial skis all the time out at Alta/Bird.  I think the trick is to look for a ski that can handle the full spectrum, so you are ready for anything, be it powder/crud, groomers, or old junky snow.  The Legend XXL is one such ski, as is the Mothership.  I think anything in the 95-110mm waist range with some metal layers will get the job done.  I like that the skis give me confidence to handle the whole mountain no matter what the snow is like.  I hate feeling limited by skis, since it results in a very tentative attitude and low confidence -- exactly what you don't want out there.  You may have an established comfort zone on a certain set of skis, but that zone is likely to be marginalized by the conditions you'll encounter, so it doesn't help much.

I guess one more tidbit, regardless of the skis you're on -- watch out for chalky snow.  This can be as firm as eastern hardpack, but it's extremely edgeable, so much so that you might get too much grip.  I have seen skis that handled east coast ice with aplomb become chattery, scratchy, floppy saw blades on chalky western snow.

So the bottom line, don't extrapolate your east coast experience and comfort zone to the west, because it doesn't always scale well.  I've talked about this with Porter, and discovered it for myself.  Hard snow, junky snow, and bumps at places like Alta/Bird don't necessarily point to the ski you'd choose for the same conditions in the east.  I'd say to bring out the big guns if you have them, so that you and your skis can show the snow who's boss.

 This is a very reasoned analysis.  Thank you.  It reinforces my plan to only bring one pair of skis (per person) out to Utah next week.
188 Coombas for me, 179 Obsethed's for my son.  Both are 102 or 3 underfoot.  Of course, we checked them out on eastern "loud powder" just to be sure they could handle ice (or close to it, at least).  Surprisingly good in everything except tight choppy bumps.

My Line Prophet 90's should be there tomorrow via FedEx. Now I'm just hoping the airports can be back to normal by Friday morning. Otherwise my skis may be vacationing without me.

Hi Conz,

As you know I am gonna be there too. At the moment I am looking into the option of starting our holiday in Jackson instead of Utah. We would land on Monday and then drive straight to Jackson. Starting there with two days of snowmobiling Yellowstone and Teton NP. Then skiing Jackson (and Corbet's  if it is open and we don't chicken out...). In the meantime praying for snow. Then hopefully find some fresh snow in Utah. That's why we fly to the States... Didn't buy those hellbents for the groomers... I let you know immediately should we change our plans!!! Depends on the flexibility of the hotels and lift-tickets. For now you can still count us in for dinner.
-Dirk

219, those conditions look like a mix of skied off sugar and chalk which is pretty much typical this season. And its exactly what skis like the head monster 88 were built for. In my quiver I would make do with the PEs. I know big solid skis can make things feel more stable and I have spent alot of time on those sorts of ski the past 3 seasons... But this winter  I am finding that a midfat works best for all day skiing in those sorts of conditions for me. I end up being less tired and sore afterwards. I know when I first moved here I was very intimidating to ski stuff >30 degrees when the snow is like that and skis don't feel totally solid and can certianly lead to a bad day... But in many ways its just a mind game and eventually you will get comfortable to it and be able to step up to those lines in just those conditions on your "tooth picks" and rip it with confidence. $.02.

As far as chalk snow, I love it and think its one of the best things about skiing in UT.

Dirk let us know whats going on. I completely understand about coming for powder. I seriously looked at Taos and still toying with a night drive/ next day ski trip to Jackson or Brian Head. But it doesn't look like any snow in Utah (or anywhere within 300 miles) for next week.Not sure about the week after.

I hope we do get to meet you and Daphne though. I'll be there through Monday 2/22. And if they are calling for a blizzard the next day, well may be another "extended" trip lol.

I am gonna give the AC30's a try and see how it works out. They are not mid fats but are a heavy solid ski. So hopefully they will do the trick. But if not....demo!

Don't put too much stock in this since the weather forecasts can change very quickly here but here are some highlights from this afternoon's update from the NWS:

DISCUSSION...LOTS OF CHANGES THIS FORECAST PACKAGE AS MODELS HAVE
  BECOME CONSIDERABLY WETTER ACROSS THE NORTHERN MOUNTAINS OVER THE
  NEXT FEW DAYS. SEVERAL WEAK DISTURBANCES WILL MOVE THROUGH
  NORTHERN UTAH OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS BEFORE ANOTHER STRONG RIDGE  BUILDS INTO THE AREA.

ADDED LIKELY POPS FOR SEVERAL PERIODS THROUGH SATURDAY FOR BOTH
  THE WASATCH NORTH AND SOUTH OF I-80. AMOUNTS LOOK TO REMAIN BELOW 
  ADVISORY. CRITERIA DUE TO THE LONG DURATION OF THE EVENT...BUT STORM
  TOTALS WILL RANGE FROM 6 TO 12 INCHES IN THE WASATCH
  MOUNTAINS ALONG THE IDAHO/UTAH BORDER TO 4 TO 8 INCHES FOR THE
  WASATCH MOUNTAINS SOUTH OF I-80. ISOLATED LOCATIONS FAVORED IN
  THIS TYPE OF FLOW PATTERN MAY RECEIVE UP TO 18 INCHES ESPECIALLY
  NEAR THE BORDER. LITTLE TO NO ACCUMULATION IS EXPECTED IN MOST OF
  THE NORTHERN UTAH VALLEYS...HOWEVER A FEW INCHES ARE POSSIBLE ON
  BENCH AREAS...ESPECIALLY ACROSS THE NORTHERN WASATCH FRONT.

THE LONG TERM PATTERN IS MORE OF A QUESTION AS MODELS HAVE BEEN
  INCONSISTENT FROM RUN TO RUN REGARDING THE STRENGTH AND DURATION
  OF THE RIDGE.

Hopefully 8 rather than 4. Would hopefully be enough to cover up the crust. Dirk, let me know when can if you're going  straight to Wyoming as I need to adjust dinner reservation. Maybe Snowbasin will get some significan snow out of this pattern.

Shhhhhhhhhhhh, we'll jinx it..........

But thanks SB77.

 I have such poor luck with powder that I never expect it.  So if it does happen, I think of it as a bonus.
I'm more concerned about coverage, and for that I think we will be ok.  Its a below-average year, but not by all that much.
From the Snotel sensor at Snowbird,

By my eye I make the snow water equivalent to be 18 vs the average 23, which is almost 80 percent.
Thanks to the gathering, by the way -- without the big snow they brought (the jump just before 1/29 on the graph), the situation would be a  bit desperate.

I'm sure I'm going to have a great time no matter what.

EDIT -- dynamic map link messed up.  Static snapshot posted below.
Edited by mdf - 2/10/10 at 9:11pm

 Another thing -- am i just a really bad web surfer, or is there no open/closed trail info on the Snowbird website?
THey have open/closed lift info, but that seems to be all.

Your attached graph is messed up mdf, it's not showing 2010 data.  That looks to be the 2007 data, even though the legend and title say 2010.  Not sure what happened there.

 Ok, that is really weird.  I went and looked at some other years AFTER I posted the link, and 2007 was the last one I viewed.  The drawbacks of posting links to on-the-fly generated pages.  I'll grab a bitmap and post that...

Ok, here it is


See, it could be worse -- it could be 2007. (P.S. - don't look at 2008 or 2009 if you are prone to conspiracy theories or feeling sorry for yourself)