Completing the turn

Recently we have had some opportunities to do movement analysis on advanced skiers. As I recall, a number of the skiers showed a common movement pattern in their skiing: in the last third of the turn the body falls back and in towards the hill.

Questions: Is this a problem? What are the likely causes? What is your prescription for change?

Nolo

Are these turns "fall line to fall line? i.e. the last third is during and after the change of stance foot?

First comment
As the body travels a less curvacious route down the mountain, It would "appear" that the body is falling to the inside as the feet/skis move out to complete their rounder path.

To fall back may be also the appearance of the trajectory of the "central mass" as it prepares for release into the new turn. Following a shorter path, It would need to "slow up" as the ski comes around.

I am using medium radius turns in my minds eye. The analog of a water skier is in my head.

Constant speed tow boat
Varing path of skier and ski
Actions required to maintain tow rope tension

CalG

CalG,

Take a look at this: mc's photomontage

nolo, if I understand you correctly, then I think it's not a problem... or, if it is, you need to talk to Yoda.

he emphasizes the "return to traverse" aspect of the last part of a turn. He gave me a drill to ensure this happens. what I see in mc's montage seems to me a sequenced version of what Yoda has been telling me.

am I missing something in mc's montage? what else is going on there?

If you look at the image of the skier fourth from last, then third from and second from, it appears the center of mass has moved back in relation to the feet. I'm going by the fold at the waist, primarily.

I think this is the collapse into the hill she's describing.

To me, it puts the skier into a position (s)he has to move out of before being able to move into the next turn. I'd expect it to result in a loss of fluidity.

I would like to respond to this question from a perceptual point a view that I think applies for many skiers. I don't mean to say it is the whole answer but I think it is an important part.

The "last third" of a turn can also be thought of as the time to start preparing for the next turn. By the time a skier is 2/3 of the way through a turn they usually feel in control and comfortable (at least relatively). At this point preparation for the next turn requires a commitment down the hill/fall-line which can evoke perceptions of a fall. A natural response is to lean away from the fall line into the hill. There can also be a reflexive shift back as a "brace" against the forward speed. Thus, when we observe that "in the last third of the turn the body falls back and in towards the hill" what we are observing is a skier choosing a perceived postion of safety and stability as opposed to movement towards a fall and/or increasing speed - a very natural behavior.

How does anyone overcome this reflexive behavior to a perceived fear of falling or speed? They come to perceive the associated movements as something other falling or going too fast, they perceive it as SKIING. I don't think we can ever totally eliminate the reflexive behaviors. I have had the privelege to ski in person with a few world class free skiers. At below-mach speeds over non-exposed they routes almost never display such "negative" reflexive movements. But when they go to their own extreme you can see exactly some of these same behaviors. With such skiers, however, these negative movements are corrected very quickly on the rare occasions when they occur.

Now, how you get from stage A to B is a whole other story that has certainly been addressed here previously but probably deserves its own thread.

thanks, Kneale. I missed that. that's why I'm still a hack and not a coach, I guess.

heh heh heh

Which hand is higher and ahead?

[ October 30, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: nolo ]

Well

This series shows a turn as Traverse to traverse
The skier is "sitting on the tails" to me. In and Back.

Is it not good? It seems like a long way to come from to get into the new turn. I would like my bones stacked a bit more.

I would say "get your head into the new turn".

CalG

Is this a problem? Looking at the skier's feet in the photo composite I would say that at no time (with the possible exception of the last exposure does either foot show evidence of applying more pressure to the tail than the center of the ski. That would not show a problem to me. OTOH, it appreas to me that the skier is committed to far inside the old turn in the last exposure or two.

What are the causes? I believe this comes from the skier's mid-turn posture being overly flexed rather than extended. I also believe I see a period of either slight inactivity or early overextension in the 3rd exposure. So, I believe the root cause would be early over extension.

What is your prescription for change? Your favorite drill for getting skiers to extend over a longer period of time. My instructing skills are very rusty at this time of year so I would tend to use something silly like a four count extension, four count flexion. Possibly I would ask them to extend their hands into the air mid-turn and put their hands on their knees during turn transition then coach that to a smooth even flow between full extension and full flexion. Then I would coach them back to a more normal hand carriage while flexing and extending in the same manner.

Please let me know if I'm way off base. I do recognize that this skier appears to be a junior racer in which case their full extension will not be as extended as a non-racer.

Aar

Adding a bit more to my earlier post I would direct the skier to get more quickly on their new edges. The direction would be to eliminate the period of time during which the ski is unedged during turn transitions by moving the center of gravity directly into the center of the new turn rather than standing up between turns.

This will keep the body from staying inside at the end of the turn. It will eliminate the tendancy to extend during turn transition and help the skier's edge engagement throughout the turn.

Aar

Is the look in frame 2 approximately the same as the look in frame 8?

Look at frame 2. What do you see?

Look at frame 3. This is the start of the movement pattern that results in frame 2/8.

Look at frame 4. Draw a midline down the body. Which side is higher and ahead--outside half or inside half?

Look at frame 1. Are you seeing a similar picture?

Aaaahhhh. Now I'm learning some movement analysis. Yoda always tells me that the "reaching uphill" (often done backward -- reaching behind one's sagittal midline toward the uphill slope) results in lost power on the downhill ski. I've experienced that. My problem last season wasn't a torso twist uphill, it was a head lean uphill. Even that little head position change improved my turn's power and stability.

There's a little move in Yoda's "turn into traverse" drill that he gave me, where the drill emphasizes attention to square shoulders/arms/hands relative to the fall line.

Thanks, nolo!

Hey, Aar: Your junior racer is an airline pilot.

I like to call your four-count being patient. I also prefer to think of an extension as something that keeps the skis in contact with the snow rather than something that moves the center of mass.

My opening observation: Pretty good skier.
However, if the the inside foot/leg is not activly enabling the process, it is interfering with it. Interference in one area necessitates compensation somewhere else.

For the specific skier the first thing I'd address is what appears as a dominant focus on making it all happen with the outside ski and a very passive inside ski.

In snow as soft as this appears to be I'd explore a focus of more actively tipping the inside foot/ski, with a little more weight on it (while pulling it back under body). Fore/aft balance on outside ski appears to be slipping aft toward last pix, and inside is way aft from beginning.

The passive inside ski shows less edge angle, and as such is trying to take a longer arc. This is evident by the converging relationship of skis in last two pix. As the skier puts increasingly more effort into outside ski (needed to bulldoze the passive inside one around the corner) the resultant to the upper body is inside and back.

This is really a pretty good skier with an obviously well developed skill set. At this level though, something as simple as a mis-directed focus can cause a reduction of outcome potential.
Whith a focus to get the inside foot/ski leading the edging effort (even though turn dynamics will result in the outside being the dominant support leg) the feet/legs will start working together instead of against each other.
[img]smile.gif[/img]

As for the photo montage, the skier in the photo is not in the back seat, and is not leaning up the hill. This skier is showing good balance over the outside ski, upper body is somewhat perpendicular to the pitch of the hill. He or she shows me aggressiveness in they’re turn and from what I can see in a still, good turn shape. I would not say this person is traversing. The only thing that I can see that might need some work is a little more active steering of the inside leg. In the last two photos, the skier is wedged. My two cents worth.--------------Wigs

My first overall impression of the skier in the sequence is that, he's a pretty good skier, but there is little skeletal alignment. He's rigidly holding his position through muscle power. He's folded at the waist throughout the turn, his hips seem locked. When I draw a center line through his upper bodies rotational axis it finds the snow somewhere back by his inside heel. When I make a triangle from his angulation it finds the snow somewhere behind his out side foot. As has been pointed out by just about everyone, his weight is inside and back. Because he's "holding" his position strictly with his big muscles, he's lost the ability to fine tune his edge and finese the pressure. Which leads to his countering his hips and too much angulation to try to accomplish edge and pressure control. Are his boots too stiff? Ending his turn he really has nowhere to go to release the pressure at the end of his turn into his next because he's already over flexed and behind. Maybe that's why I envision his hips kinda swinging back and forth slightly behind his feet.

I want to help this skier get better structural allignment. Help him get longer between inside shoulder and outside foot. Direct the forces to his outside foot structuraly. Find his root, so to speak. This should help his inside foot and leg get into the program by staying back and intiating and controling the turn and turn shape, and staying more with his feet hip width, or even a little less than hip width. The feet and legs can then begin to control the hips and upperbody, instead of the hips and upperbody controling the legs and feet. This hopefully will help him find his edge earlier and control his edges, pressure, and direction with much less effort, leaving him in a position to easily and effectively move through neutral and into the next turn.

Oh,,,how do we get him longer with better skeletal alignment? I think I would start at the top of his legs, at his hips. Kinda come at it from 180%. Have him initiate turns on easy groomed terrain strictly by raising his new inside hip, leaving him long legged, with early edge change. Then draw awareness down to the feet and what movements are happening in his feet when the hips are initiating the turn. Now change the focus and intial movements to the feet. Same movements just starting them at the snow end, with all other body areas staying the same. Keeping this long stance we might go into varying terrain and see how this works in shaping turns and fine tuning his movements with his smaller muscle groups, in particular his ankles and knees, with directed awareness at how this allows for smoother transition from one turn to the next. This is just one way I might help him work this out. With better sructural awareness and allignment, there would be little to hold this strong skier back.

Where do I want to be at the end of my turn? I want to be in a position to start the next turn with the least amount of movement.

Thanks for the exercise Nolo.

[ October 31, 2002, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Ric B ]

OK, I think that the last two frames don't show how the skier would ski that slope. I think they show how they end that turn wanting to end up above the person doing the shooting. Intent/goal often dictate movement pattern.

Yd

Look at the first two frames then, Ydnar.

Ric, I like how you phrased it: "Help him get longer between inside shoulder and outside foot."

I agree with all who are saying that this skier could benefit from strengthening/activating his inside half, and I would start by asking the student to focus on what his hand does after the pole touch. I believe that relaxation of the hand and arm is what robs the inside half of its strength throughout the turn.

See this photo for example of strong inside half. What would happen to the turn dynamics if that hand was held lower? http://www.harbskisystems.com/graphics/cover_ht17.jpg

[ October 31, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: nolo ]

Nolo, I wish I could say that I came up with it myself, but it's one of those things I picked on the journey, from someone more enlightened than myself.

I'm with you on the inside half, but I don't see the arm as being a cause. I see it as being a result of other things. I guess, I mean, I don't see this skier relaxing anything up above without some changes down below first. Once he starts skiing longer or more skeletal through the middle of the turn, I see him being able to relax more up above. Is this eroneous thinking? I assume you are speaking of keeping the hands more parallel to the snow. With more relaxed continuous directional movements with outside hand and arm.

[ October 31, 2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Ric B ]

another Q for you folks who see SO MUCH here... (nolo and ric, I'm very impressed)

how much of his poor upper body position results from the backpack he's wearing? do we know what's inside it, or how much it weighs?

One of the single best pieces of advice I was given long ago by a race coach: uphill higher and ahead to power the outside ski. You say lift the inside hip. I see the inside half sagging and lagging somewhat in relationship to the outside half. The hand is just the leader and a tell-tale. The slope is higher on the inside, so the skier should be higher on the inside. It stands to reason that letting that relationship get reversed, even in the smallest degree, would weaken the system.

I see now that what the race coach meant was, higher and ahead to press on your root foot!

[ October 31, 2002, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: nolo ]

Well, as you already know Nolo, that lifting the hip thing is something to play with to develope some new "structural awareness", not a way to ski. Anything that can help open up and relax the hips and upper body so they move with the flow instead of dictating the flow. Do you think the "lead with the inside half" still applies to the same degree as it did in your racing days? I ask this because I saw his hips being more countered that nessasary in that nice long radius turn. Interested in your take on this.

Thanks Gonzo, but Nolo is the real master here, I'm just a lucky grasshopper.

For years I skied the backcountry with packs too heavy. All I can say is that the lower and more folded you get with your torso the more trouble you're in. Tall, relaxed, and over your feet, if you don't want to auger in. :

Lead of the uphill side is dictated by anatomy and the pitch of the slope. Please don't take what I'm saying as asking for something that isn't natural. What I am saying is I do not see the pitch of his body matching the pitch of the slope. When I visualize this skier with a higher inside half I see a very strong picture.

I conclude that this skier needs stronger leadership from his inside half. I think there's consensus on this point, based on comments here.

I was thinking about this the other day. I'm afraid people may expect all instructors to come up with the same exact prescription for change, and when they don't, that one is wrong and one is right. I think a better way to think about the work instructors do is to compare it to what an interior designer is hired to do. There is not one way to improve a room, but a myriad of ways depending on the owner's tastes and desires. A well-designed room is one where the owner will delight in spending time. It might not be a design that other designers would have done. In fact, it almost certainly won't be. But it will follow general design principles as far as the color palette, the use of space, and the concept of focal points.

With ski instruction too, the magic is how the instructor takes what he learns from the student in combination with fundamental principles to fashion a uniquely delightful experience that will make the student want to spend more time skiing.

Nah, Nolo, I simply value your observations and what you have to say. I was just tryng to get a clearer picture from someone elses point of view to maybe add to my understanding. I may be a sponge, but I'm a questioning sponge.

Nolo,

That was a terrific exercise in movement analysis! You demonstrated that this format can be a very effective medium for learning and developing movement analysis.

Do you have any more photo montages of advanced skiers that you could post and lead a discussion on? Everyone learned something from those exchanges, whether student or instructor. MORE! MORE! Thanks!

Lou

Lou,

Thank you. Bob Barnes did the photomontage of a series of stills that mc posted.

We need people to post their videos. I have a lot of digital video of skiers, but I'm not comfortable posting without their permission. I suspect that the more helpful the movement analysis (especially the prescriptions for change), the more people will be inspired to post their videos. It could be a great win-win: instructors get to practice their diagnostic skills and skiers get a free workup.

Your last paragraph about instructors is the best I have ever seen it said. The room decorating anology is great. With your permission I would like to hand this quote out to fellow instructors.