Relative size of ski areas around Innsbruck?

looks like I will be headed to Innsbruck this winter as a base of operations for a week long ski trip. Its tough to really get an idea of the size of the ski areas based on the panoramic maps and the lengths of pistes. Can anybody give any points of reference on the size of the areas around Innsbruck? st. Anton I guess is big, how about axamer, kuhtai, stubai or nordpark? or even the 'smaller' areas?

In my experience European piste-maps understate the size of ski areas. At least in my eyes that's the case. So generally, I would say they are all bigger than you may think.

Specifically, out of those I've skied Axamer Lizum and Stubai. Bear in mind this was early season in a very poor snow year, and that obviously clouds my opinion.

I was a bit underwhelmed by Stubai. Nothing especially steep, and when I was there nothing was possible off-piste. I was pretty much limited to high-speed intermediate cruising, which was fine. As for size, not huge. With the closers when I was there it was actually quite small, although still with an impressive vertical.

I was more impressed by Axamer Lizum. Less vertical than Stubai but more variety. Again, not a huge area, but still pretty big.

Now just going by what I've heard: Kuhtai looks a little smaller than Axamer Lizum. It's at higher elevation so should have better snow. Nordpark is the smallest of those areas but has the most expert terrain.

Are you renting a car or using the ski bus system? The buses are free from Innsbruck to all thsoe resorts, but I was blown away by how poorly it worked in practice. One day our bus driver got lost (not easy to do, either). Another day, while in theory buses headed to each resort are supposed to cycle through town picking people up, the driver of the Stubai bus told every one to get on his bus regardless of where they were going. After a few stops, the bus was bursting with people, but he kept at it even though there were emply buses behind him and not every one on his bus wanted to go to Stubai anyway. I was sitting right behind the driver, and finally one of the other bus drivers called him and asked what the hell he was doing. We ended up going to a parking lot outside of town where people got off his packed bus and redistributed on to their correct buses. This resulted in about a 30 minute delay.

I guess that means I'd recommend renting a car.

Check out this thread from another website.  Someone asked a similar question:
http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php?cid=topic15719

most likely renting a car for all those reasons.  So much mystery right now,  Hopefully there is good snow to make any decision a good one.

Hi,

I can tell you a bit about Stubai. Stay there Feb 2008 and loved !  I'm not a expert skier for sure but must say they have long runs, many levels, some bumbs, some out-of-piste and a very good and fast lift system. 

Very windy place, keep lipstick and warm equipment.

If you are luck, as we did you'll find lots of powder snow and one of the pistes/of-piste Wide Grub´n is 10 Km longer,  with Dauferner just above, let's you to experience a long 19Km ski run. My legs got hurt after each run on there!!(see the table below)

My thought
You can stay at Innsbruk and drive or take the bus to the mountain. The bus could  be very crowded at the best time each morning, since everybody wants to get up there in the same time!!  

But the better choice is to find a hotel in the valley, Stubai is a must!! (Fernau our heart's choice - fantastic!) From Stubai to the parking lot at Muterembeg(base station) we lost 30-40 minutes every morning in a long car line on the way.
 Oh yes, if you'll rent a car outside Austria, winter tires is mandatory, and don't forget  the Austian shield stick(you can buy it from a gas station)!! do it quick after cross the border!

Good luck!
Eduardo

	Pisten (Nr.)	effektive Fahrstrecke (m)
	Eisjochferner (1)	3.300 m
	Schaufelschuss (1a)	3.600 m
	Eisjochzunge (1b)	3.500 m
	Gamsgartenschuss (1c)	600 m
	Silbernschneid (2)	7.500 m
	Gamsgarten (3)	5.000 m
	Zufahrt Fernau (4)	4.500 m
	Falwesuna (4a)	3.600 m
	Gaisskarferner Süd (5)	1.500  m
	Gaisskarferner (5a)	4.500 m
	Sonnenhang (5c)	3.000 m
	Windachferner (6)	3.000 m
	Daunferner (7)	9.000 m
	Skiweg Eisnase (7a)	1.500 m
	Wildspitzschuss (7b)	1.200 m
	Daunenhang (9)	5.000 m
	Fernauferner (10)	7.500 m
	Pfaffenschneid (11)	6.250 m
	Grubenschuss (12)	1.200 m
	Daunfernerschuss (17)	2.500 m
	Kogelferner (20)	2.490 m
	Schartenschuss (21)	2.075 m
	Eisnase (8)	1.000 m
	Fernau-Mauer (13)	4.000 m
	Wilde Grub'n (14)	10.000 m
	Gaches Eck (15)	1.500 m
	Steile Zunge (18)	1.500 m
	Kanonenrohr (19)	1.500 m

Take a look at ;

Good prices  and good ski equip.
http://www.skischule-neustift.com/

How about Zillertal?
 http://www.j2ski.com/ski_resorts/Austria/TopAustrianSkiResorts.html

Resorts with green dots are included in Zillertal ski pass... It is one valley, you can use ski bus or train to go to new resort each day...
It is 50km from Insbruck... I would recommend to find a place in the valley...

Irafar, those figures are highly misleading or just outright wrong. I'll only comment on those that I have personal experience with, but I doubt they are the only inaccuracies.

Innsbruck is not a ski resort. It is a city near several ski resorts, similar to Salt Lake City. None of those ski reports have a vertical of 2620 meters. They seem to have come to that figure by simply comparing the elevation of downtown Innsbruck with that at the top of Stubai. Never mind the 90 minute drive in between. That would be like measuring the difference in elevation between downtown Salt Lake City and the top of Snowbird and declaring that your vertical. You will notice the actual vertical of Stubai is listed separately as 2200 meters.

Ehrwald does not have a vertical of 1965 meters. Ehrwald has a handful of short runs that I doubt come even close to 1000 meters. Ehrwald also has a cable car that accesses the Zugspitze glacier. There is maybe 1000 meters vertical on the glacier, but you cannot ski back to Ehrwald. You must download on the same cable car. Oh, and the skiing is in Germany, not Austria.

Amade is not a ski resort. It is a collection of ski resorts, some of which are several hours from one another. Quoting the combined size of these as a single resort is like quoting the combined size all the Vail resorts, including Heavenly. Yes, there may be a common lift ticket, but you will not be skiing all of them. Also in the list of largest ski resorts are several of the resorts that make up the Amade. Flachau, Wagrain, Alpendorf and Bad Gastein are all members of the Amade collection. So they are being counted both separately and combined in this list. You will also notice that Flachau and Wagrain are listed as having 350 km of pistes. It may seem odd that two resorts, right next to one another, have the same exact mileage. That is because the combined millage of the two is being counted twice for those resorts. This is proven by the fact that by adding up the figures given here for Flachau, Wagrain, Alpendorf and Bad Gastein you reach a number that exceeds the 865 listed for Amade. These are not even the only resorts in Amade, so the mileage therefore has to be getting counted for more than one of the resorts listed. This would be like presenting a mileage figure for all of Big and Little Cottonwood Canyons, and then presenting mileage for the individual resorts, but for both Alta and Snowboard listing the combined mileage of Alta AND Snowbird.

Sorry, but these figures are rubbish. I would not use them to plan my vacation.

 I know... There are lies, big lies and statistics ...

If I go skiing, I try to ski as many pistes as I can... Skied once, twice - where are we going next?

Zillertal valley has a lot to offer - you won't get bored...
Weather may vary in each resort of the valley, especially in the glacier - you can find the best weather...

Lies and statistics, indeed. I like that they offer the following disclaimer:
 

Well no, actually their fact-based comparisons are not reliable. They are flat out wrong.

Notice in their "Highest Altitude" section, Piztal is counted three times, Zillertal twice, and Stubai three times. That's more than half the list right there!

It's bad enough that their research is lazy. What's worse is that a professional site has not bothered to have anyone look over their data before publishing just to see if it looks even plausible.

As for Zillertal, I haven't been there, but it does look nice.

I was in Kitzbuel, and it was pretty good. Here is their site: http://www.kitzbuehel.com/en/

Garick,
  If I were in your shoes I would do this- SKIP Innsbruck unless you have other reasons for being there! Its a dump as European cities go. Mostly industrial with a small old town center (and the most depressing zoo you have ever been to). There are some incredibly beautiful small villages through out the Alps and especially in the Tirol or Arlberg areas. Better yet just go to St. Anton and stay there the WHOLE TIME. If you try and ski a bunch or even a few different ski areas in that amount of time you will never get a true taste of what is there. Hire a guide or ski instructor to show you around. A lot of European areas are so large you could ski there an entire season and never ski the same run twice! St. Anton is like that. If you're a decent skier and are looking for some good off piste skiing a guide can save you the headache and the guessing game and take you strait to where you want to be.
  I lived in the area for 4 years. I've skied a few of the areas around there. Stubaital is an absolute yawn! Going to Innsbruck, Austria for a ski trip and waisting your time on those other areas would be like going to Lake Tahoe, staying in Reno, and skiing Mt. Rose, instead of skiing Squaw or discovering Kirkwood. I'm just say'n.
Cheers

hmm, interesting...Innsbruck is kind of a compromise.  I would probably rather stay in st. anton but others on the trip want the 'European cultural experience' thing rather than 'generic, expensive ski town'.  Is it more like 'european dump of a city' vs 'quaint, interesting  mountain village'?  I know the party scene in st. anton is pretty well documented.  Going back to the tahoe parallel...We have done tahoe before and stayed mid-lake while skiing kirkwood, alpine, heavenly and squaw.  Kind of similar distance-wise to getting around to areas around innsbruck (st. anton included). 

Since you have experience in both countries, got any size comparisons?

I think fressen is bit over the top in describing Innsbruck as a dump. It's a beautiful city. Yes, there's some industry on the outside of town, but that's what you get in a working city rather than a purpose-built ski resort. He is however absolutely correct that there are some incredibly beautiful small villages outside of Innsbruck.

You write that some in your group want a "European cultural experience" rather than a "generic, expensive ski town". Innsbruck is certainly a logical compromise in that respect, but as you allude, a "quaint, interesting mountain village" would also fit the bill. The question is what your group members mean by a "European cultural experience". Does that mean high culture like museums and theater (which you won't be partaking in if you are skiing all day anyway), or could that also mean mountain culture? Remember that especially in Austria, many of the ski resorts are in villages that pre-date the ski industry and have a farming culture independent of that industry.

I have never been to St. Anton, so I cannot comment on the extent to which that mountain culture still exists or if it has transformed into the sort of "generic, expensive ski town" you want to avoid. It may be that one of the other villages in the Alberg region suit your needs better. Are you flying into Innsbruck or somewhere else? It may be that there are more appropriate places for your needs closer to your arrival airport.

As for size, the Alberg dwarfs anything in North America. You can access the skiing from more than just one portal, or rather village, which I can't think of any examples of in North America. Imagine that all of the North Lake Tahoe resorts were linked, and you could access the entire area from any one of the base areas.

I totally agree with  Ami.

Innsbruck is a must and can work as a base to a lot of ski places(Stubai, Lizun, etc). Of course you'll need to drive a bit more and get off the bed early!!! But you'll have two experiences.

Also, ok I'm, not a great skier but say that "Stubaital is an absolute yawn!" is a personal opinion. And I do not agree with it. I loved that place. Big, good snow,  a wide range of pistes and of pistes, etc, etc.

I just want to share a couple of links that can be found in other threads, just increasing visibility.  I thought these were really well written and informative.

http://www.dcski.com/articles/view_article.php?article_id=716&mode=search

http://www.dcski.com/articles/view_article.php?article_id=450&mode=search

searching the site will bring up several other austria links.

 I've skied both Axamer Lizum and Stubai.  Two days at each.  

Stubai was wide open and had a nice layout.  I remember that Axamer had more difficult terrain.  

One other note.  Euro lift line etiquette is very different than that in the USA.  Its a bit of a free for all, so be aware.  

Have fun!

  There is no European lift line etiquette. They will push you out of the way, walk across the tops of your skis, and the little ones will ski right through your legs (race teams encourage this as it promotes aggression). Learn how to play the game and enjoy it. Its kind of fun when you learn to do as the Romans. As one German said to me as he skied across the tops of my skis with nobody with-in a 100 meters of either of us, and I showed him the size of my middle finger "Vee ski on zee bottom of our skis!"
If you do go to Innsbruck, drive up the road towards Munich and Garmisch. About 45 minutes +/- , across the German border there is a small, gorgeous town called Mittenwald. Here you will find culture. When are you going? About the second week of December they have a festival for the kids that gets pretty crazy. The Krumpus are demon like figures that come in many shapes and forms. German children are told that if they do not behave throughout the year the Krumpus will come and take them away before Christmas. Very Brothers Grimm'-esque. The local civil servants and millitary take part in dressing up in horrific costumes of devils and hay piles (yes, hay piles (?!)) and chase the kids around and hand out candy. As the day goes on the kids go home and these same civil servants get served free alchohol at the local pubs. They also get a bit more aggressive as the night goes on. Had several friends get roughed up. NOT KIDDING! There is a bit of a thrill in going from pub to pub while these characters are out. If they see you they will chase you. They do mean business and you would be wise to run for the safety of the next pub. If you come home with a black eye I told you so.
  Again, if you are headed to Europe as destination ski trip, these other areas DO NOT COMPARE to St. Anton. I'm talking about the skiing, the apres skiing, the beauty of the area, and YES, the culture. Austrian culture is life in the Alps, in small villages. Innsbruck is worth A day if you are back-packing through Europe on your way from Munich to some place in Italy. I would never reccomend anybody go out of their way to see Innsbruck. Its alright, I'm just saying for such a short trip there are nicer, more charming places to stay. They won't be any more expensive either. This is Europe. There is no such thing as inexpensive. Any where. Except maybe in Turkey. 
  As far as size goes, St. Anton is larger  than anything in N. America as somebody said before. Larger than Whistler and Black Comb combined. A week won't allow you to see half of it. And as I said, if you want to find the goods hire a guide. Money well spent!  At least for a day so you will know what to go back to, and get a genral idea of how to move around the area. On moutain there is a place called the Krazy Kanguruh (http://www.krazykanguruh.com/) There is actually lodging here. It is also a St. Anton institution for getting bit by a dog followed by some hair of that dog the next day. This is also a great area to meet locals and maybe get shown around.
  Good luck, Viel Spass, und Guten Rutsch!

Middle finger doesn't help...  Keep your poles sharpened 

Budget skiing in Europe is in Slovakia... Jasna / Chopok the biggest ski resort there... Best infrastructure (lifts, groomers... and 10 - 20 min waiting at the bottom) is on the North... The South side ir opposite - (almost no chair lifts, few groomers and no ques)... Good and cheap beer makes apres ski anywhere  


Edited by irafar - 11/30/09 at 11:28pm

I agree wholeheartedly about Mittenwald. It's just how you'd expect an alpine village to be. The local brew (Mittenwalder) is great; the food at the Hotel Post Restaurant is delicious; and if you like off-piste skiing, that's exceptional too.

I don't agree that there is no such thing as inexpensive skiing in Europe, even the alps. I've found it possible to ski considerably more cheaply than in North America.

 Found some pictures of Mittenwald... Looks really beautiful  

Awe yes, Slovakia, and I also forgot Slovenia which still has a lot of old world charm. The money is pourning in but you might still find a place or two that will give you an idea of what Italy was like 30 or 40 years ago. You can even tour the Elan factory from what I hear. I stand corrected.
Garick, you might also look at Cortina. The Italian border is very close to Innsbruck and the Dolomites offer a geologically unique experience. Not to mention, Italians have a pretty damn good time in the mountains. Probably more like a day trip to get there. Would not make the effort to go and return in the same day.
Thats the last of my .02 cents. Good luck with your trip. Traveling with a group, I'm sure there will be much compromise. I'm not sure what your travel experience is so a little advice. Traveling in groups goes a lot like this "Where do we want to go today?" the committee decides, "Now, where do we want to eat" another committee, "Lets head back to the hotel clean up, catch a snooze and meet up for dinner" yet another committee meeting followed by some cat hurding.....etc. Avoid The Committee. Don't be afraid to go do your own thing or travel in a light team or duo for a day or two. Best of luck.
Cheers

especially when somebody needs to bring their girlfriend....I hadn't really thought about traveling around much, thanks for the suggestions.  I think I am convinced now though that the arlberg has to be the focus of the trip and we should probably stay right there for at least a few nights.  I want the huge, wide open, unrestricted, interconnected european resort thing.  That is the whole reason I want to go to europe, its something we don't get in N. America.

Check out this site, tells You all on skiing in Austria:

http://www.tiscover.com

The places that You might want to visit:

Sölden; Ischgl; St. Anton an Arlberg; Zillertal Arena - these places rock.