Twin tips: if you don't ski switch.......

#1

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11/13/09 at 7:45pm

davluri
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Do they hang up on a rock you skied too close to? Do they catch a branch you're barely missing? Are they additional weight, length, momentum back there?

#2

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11/13/09 at 7:55pm

freeski919
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Answers are 'No, no, no, and no'. I spend a majority of time on twin tips. I've had park skiing as part of my repetoire for years, so that's why I'm on twinnies a lot. I also teach, so I do ski switch in front of beginners a lot as well. However, when I'm freeskiing, I'm very happy on my twin-tips. I've been a Salomon 1080 loyalist for years now. I had the 1080 in a 171, then I got another pair in 161's, and now i'm on the 1080 Foil in a 166. They're all great skis, and the tails don't hang up on anything that I've ever experienced (and my skis have plenty of battle scars from rocks and branches). A freestyle-focused twin tip will actually serve very well in trees, because they are designed to be a little more balanced tip to tail, and they are typically lighter than other skis of their size. This makes for a quick, reactive ski. Also, when you're in the trees, and you've got some powder, the twin tip can help a lot when you need to back yourself up to set up the line you've chosen. You know, that scooting backwards traverse you do around a tree or a bump. Your tails will never dig into the powder and stop.

#3

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11/13/09 at 9:24pm

TheDad
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Originally Posted by davluri

Do they hang up on a rock you skied too close to?

Not in my experience

Originally Posted by davluri

Do they catch a branch you're barely missing?

Ditto.

Originally Posted by davluri

Are they additional weight, length, momentum back there?

Yes, they're additional weight. If it's a small kick, no biggie. If they're a full size twin, I find it makes a difference. The most annoying part, to me, is getting hung up while herringboning.

#4

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11/13/09 at 10:05pm

Morrison Claystone
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDad

The most annoying part, to me, is getting hung up while herringboning.

So it's not just me! Really, about half the upturn would be sufficient for me.

If you can't ski, do tricks!

#5

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11/13/09 at 10:49pm

TheDad
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Nope, not just you. The single biggest reason (pun intended) I dumped my Scott P4s.

#6

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11/14/09 at 9:25am

davluri
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do you realize how hard it is becoming to find a flat or slightly raised tail on a powder ski now?! With full rocker (tip and tail) it's almost a given that it will have twin tips as well. are we being led by the nose (tip)

or are the manufacturers onto a real preference and a real performance advantage? to the skier that skis forward?

#7

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11/14/09 at 9:28am

BushwackerinPA
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twin tips are easier to ski in powder and tend to make mroe turn shapes than most flat/stiff tailed skis, your fears are unfounded. I will always er towards twin tips for off trail skiing if given the choice.

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

pbfootnit.blogspot.com/ <<< the start of something good!

#8

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11/14/09 at 10:00am

davluri
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given what Kaestle is doing with the tip, cutting away mass and reducing momentum (according to a Kaestle ad I just saw on the tube) in the area that is not on the snow, I'd have to guess that a big tip hanging on the tail is going to contribute momentum where it is of no positive use.

#9

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11/19/09 at 12:34pm

RichmondVA
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How do the twin tip skis carve on hard pack?

#10

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11/19/09 at 1:06pm

BushwackerinPA
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Quote:

Originally Posted by RichmondVA

How do the twin tip skis carve on hard pack?

what kinda of twin tips? like ones that fat? ones that are skinny? ones that are mid fat? ones that have a big tail? ones with a little kick tail? you might want to be alittle more specific. Your question is incrediably vague

for instance my 2 set of twin are this.

Atomic thugs which are nearly unedgeable on sheer ice and really not that fun on hardpack unless you just ride the sidecut and carve SG turns.

K2 Public Enemy which do ok on ice, but become very compent GS turners on groomed snow of all types.

Do twin tips carve as well as race skis? heck no, but can they? yep, and some do it quite it well.

despite the falling snow this was sheer boiler plat underneath at Seven Springs, Pa, the skis is a soft twin with 85mm underfoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri

given what Kaestle is doing with the tip, cutting away mass and reducing momentum (according to a Kaestle ad I just saw on the tube) in the area that is not on the snow, I'd have to guess that a big tip hanging on the tail is going to contribute momentum where it is of no positive use.

really? yeah I know what kaestle is doing but it like debating a 15m turn radius vs a 16 meter turn radius if you can truly tell about the swing weight than you must be god.

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

pbfootnit.blogspot.com/ <<< the start of something good!

#11

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11/19/09 at 1:24pm

RichmondVA
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I am sorry...I am new here and should be a little more specific.

I have been looking at twin tips for the east coast that can handle the ice and hard pack, can rip down the groomers, and really function as an ll mountain ski that I can venture out west with from time to time. I had thought that something 80-90 under foot would be more ideal for the east coast and still allow it to be a little more of a carver, but that may not be the case and depend on the actual ski.

I guess my question is, what would be a good east coast twin tip that can carve fairly well with 80-90 under foot and give me the versitility of an all mountain ski? And how would that ski compare to something that is more of a traditional all mountain ski?

Thanks!

#12

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11/19/09 at 1:39pm

BushwackerinPA
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Quote:

Originally Posted by RichmondVA

I am sorry...I am new here and should be a little more specific.

I have been looking at twin tips for the east coast that can handle the ice and hard pack, can rip down the groomers, and really function as an ll mountain ski that I can venture out west with from time to time. I had thought that something 80-90 under foot would be more ideal for the east coast and still allow it to be a little more of a carver, but that may not be the case and depend on the actual ski.

I guess my question is, what would be a good east coast twin tip that can carve fairly well with 80-90 under foot and give me the versitility of an all mountain ski? And how would that ski compare to something that is more of a traditional all mountain ski?

Thanks!

K2 Public Enemy/ Exteme, Volkl Ledge, Scott Punisher, Dynstar Trouble Maker, Line chonic.

there also a couple that in the low 90 range that are worth looking at a well. Namely the Volkl Bridge and Atomic Snoop

generally the twin tips will be slighter better at bumps and softer snow while giving up some edge hold. but to make a better comparision I would need more specifics.

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

pbfootnit.blogspot.com/ <<< the start of something good!

#13

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11/19/09 at 1:44pm

crgildart
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They kick up awesome rooster tails to spray the people behind you. One downside is they aren't very good for skating across the flats or scrambling for a race start.

I'd rather be skiing

#14

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11/19/09 at 2:27pm

Morrison Claystone
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Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart

They kick up awesome rooster tails to spray the people behind you. One downside is they aren't very good for skating across the flats or scrambling for a race start.

(Note to self - avoid running a NASTAR on the Mojo 80's)

If you can't ski, do tricks!

#15

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11/19/09 at 2:58pm

davluri
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I wasn't suggesting it was a major problem, just that if it isn't being used, and is of no use, why bring it along? If you don't ski switch, lak ah said, there are only downsides. herringbone, skate, tight chutes, stuff. that's all. Where I'm headed with this is that I'm concerned that the marketing people will go nuts and keep reducing the number of square and raised rounded tail skis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

really? yeah I know what kaestle is doing but it like debating a 15m turn radius vs a 16 meter turn radius if you can truly tell about the swing weight than you must be god.

#16

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11/19/09 at 3:34pm

davluri
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The track next to Becks Rock, on the left. No, the tails did not brush the rock on that run, sparks did not fly off the edge, but you see where I'm coming from. I like the edges and for that reason, it's a good idea to know where my tails are.

I've hooked a tail on that wall before, and it's not pretty

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

really? yeah I know what kaestle is doing but it like debating a 15m turn radius vs a 16 meter turn radius if you can truly tell about the swing weight than you must be god.

#17

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11/19/09 at 3:43pm

BushwackerinPA
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Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri

39149332_D's tracks early main chute.jpg

The track next to Becks Rock, on the left. No, the tails did not brush the rock on that run, sparks did not fly off the edge, but you see where I'm coming from. I like the edges and for that reason, it's a good idea to know where my tails are.

I've hooked a tail on that wall before, and it's not pretty

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri

I wasn't suggesting it was a major problem, just that if it isn't being used, and is of no use, why bring it along? If you don't ski switch, lak ah said, there are only downsides. herringbone, skate, tight chutes, stuff. that's all. Where I'm headed with this is that I'm concerned that the marketing people will go nuts and keep reducing the number of square and raised rounded tail skis.

the upsides are is generally twins ski easier off trail. and you can manuver in tight chutes quicker than flat tail ski if you have to slide backwards quickly.

skating? if you catch your tails skating your a freaking tool. even with twins this has never happened to me.

you dont have to get twin tips I am just saying people taken things anally doesnt really mike a point.

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

pbfootnit.blogspot.com/ <<< the start of something good!

#18

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11/19/09 at 4:14pm

iWill
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Twin tips suck for serious mountaineering use. It's impossible to sink the tail into the snow, which makes going from bootpacking to putting on skis on extremely steep terrain a tricky affair. Twin tips are fine for resort use. Not for backcountry.

#19

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11/19/09 at 4:22pm

Jer
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Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri

I wasn't suggesting it was a major problem, just that if it isn't being used, and is of no use, why bring it along?

This is pretty much my take on twins. I like rounded tails, but could do without the upturn.

#20

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11/19/09 at 4:26pm

StuckInTheEast
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Since you ski eastern stuff exclusively, the K2 Extremes would suit you, or maybe Volkl Bridge. I've seen some pretty low prices on both of these skis- (Extremes at $350 and Bridge at around $450)

As for versatility- I've never personally skied the Bridge, but it handles absolutely anything the mountain throws at it. As for the Extreme, you can ski park and all mountain about equally- it is extremely quick and it definitely has worked for quick turns needed in Eastern glades.

#21

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11/19/09 at 4:52pm

liv2 ski
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Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri

do you realize how hard it is becoming to find a flat or slightly raised tail on a powder ski now?! With full rocker (tip and tail) it's almost a given that it will have twin tips as well. are we being led by the nose (tip)

or are the manufacturers onto a real preference and a real performance advantage? to the skier that skis forward?

Sounds like you want my Praxis Back Countrys.

#22

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11/19/09 at 4:59pm

crgildart
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrison Claystone

(Note to self - avoid running a NASTAR on the Mojo 80's)

LOL, I'd much rather ski bumps and hit features on SL or GS skis than run gates on twin tips. However, the older PE with an 80 waist and a 12 radius would probably hold OK on a NASTAR course if you run it really early.

I'd rather be skiing

#23

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11/19/09 at 7:36pm

BushwackerinPA
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Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart

LOL, I'd much rather ski bumps and hit features on SL or GS skis than run gates on twin tips. However, the older PE with an 80 waist and a 12 radius would probably hold OK on a NASTAR course if you run it really early.

who beat you at nastar soundly on the newer 85 mm Pes;)

"its not that you cant ski the bumps, its that you cant ski and the bumps prove it"

pbfootnit.blogspot.com/ <<< the start of something good!

#24

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11/19/09 at 8:15pm

crgildart
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Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

who beat you at nastar soundly on the newer 85 mm Pes;)

Umm just about everybody. Lemme see, Let's start with the facts. I've skied 12 days total since 1998. I skied NASTAR at Blue Knob Saturday about 15 minutes before they closed the course. It was bulletproof. The pace setter had a much better course to run, but I did still manage a strong silver. I skied that course on Norcdics W-80s just trying not to DQ. You skied NASTAR Sunday after I had left to drive back to NC so I don't know how the conditions differed between the pace setter's run (i.e. how much or little the course had deteriorated) and yours. Give me a couple of warm up runs on even gear and course conditions this 45 year old 5 day/season gaper just might embarrass you someday soon.

I'd rather be skiing

#25

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11/19/09 at 10:59pm

davluri
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cr: I smell that, but it's not winter, it's burning p-tex and honing oil. get down, but forget nastar courses, chinese downhill, winner takes pink slip

funny story for you, since you clearly take pleasure in holding your own with the young wise-crackers. I was riding a century and started working with this guy for about 40 miles through the mountains. we get to lunch and I take off my helmet. he saw that my hair was silver and about dropped his dish of barbequed chicken on the grass. I got a kick out of blowing his mind. hey, if you never stop, you just keep going, or something like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart

Umm just about everybody. Lemme see, Let's start with the facts. I've skied 12 days total since 1998. I skied NASTAR at Blue Knob Saturday about 15 minutes before they closed the course. It was bulletproof. The pace setter had a much better course to run, but I did still manage a strong silver. I skied that course on Norcdics W-80s just trying not to DQ. You skied NASTAR Sunday after I had left to drive back to NC so I don't know how the conditions differed between the pace setter's run (i.e. how much or little the course had deteriorated) and yours. Give me a couple of warm up runs on even gear and course conditions this 45 year old 5 day/season gaper just might embarrass you someday soon.

#26

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11/20/09 at 6:38am

crgildart
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Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri

cr: I smell that, but it's not winter, it's burning p-tex and honing oil. get down, but forget nastar courses, chinese downhill, winner takes pink slip

Chinese Downhill is for sissies. I vote for Lift Tower Super-G

I'd rather be skiing

#27

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11/20/09 at 10:11am

Bob Barnes
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Quote:

Originally Posted by RichmondVA

How do the twin tip skis carve on hard pack?

Hi RichmondVA--Warmest welcome to EpicSki! Please don't mind the Bushwacker--sometimes he's a bit overly excitable, but he generally means well.

For some generic thoughts on twin-tips on hard snow, and general characteristics that help or hinder any ski's performance on ice, please read my post #2 in the thread, Twin-Tip Skis on Ice? (click this link).

Regarding tails catching and hooking up in various situations, you'll get used to skating on twin-tips if you practice enough, but those who have truly refined skating techniques on flat-tailed skis will obviously need to learn to lift the ski higher (less efficient movements, for sure) to clear the other ski's tail. Yes, hooking the tails on trees, rocks, and such is more of a concern the more ski tail you have sticking out behind you. As Davluri suggests, whacking your ski tail against the rock wall of a steep couloir is disconcerting, to say the least (yes, I speak from experience--and I wasn't even on a twin-tip!).

Quote:

if you catch your tails skating your a freaking tool. even with twins this has never happened to me.

you dont have to get twin tips I am just saying people taken things anally doesnt really mike a point.

Hey Bushwacker--how about easing up a bit (and employing a spell/grammar checker)? You're not 14 anymore.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

EPICSKI ACADEMY — Discover the Expert in You!
Arapahoe Basin * Stowe * Aspen * Big Sky

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