am I a retro grouch?

 Have I become a retro grouch?  At fist I failed to understand the buyer's guide from Powder : ~"new skis allow skiers to be freed from needing Nobis' quads & interpret the mountain in a different way."

 Then I skied Killington this past weekend & saw folks on 170 cm 125mm wide skis w/ AT bindings.  Trouble was they were terrible.  Worse were the tele skiers. Now I love tele & K mart has ripping tele skiers, but why were people out on there reverse camber 1/2 binding rigs if they could barely make it from the parking lot to the gondola?

 I'm beginning to think you should get a PSIA examiner w/ your new gear, cause the skis aren't helping anyone ski better.  I generally appreciate any hauling skiing be it tele, bumper, racer, or park.  However, I don't see a reverse camber, 150mm ski being of any help & I think most ski worse on them.  Really, skiers looked terrible out there....there was no new school interpretation to be found.

 just saying

Same old story, you still cannot buy a turn, but that doesn't mean they aren't being heavily marketed.  Retro Grouch = true perception.

 there is no doubt in my mind that a number of the advances in ski technology can totally help folks ski better, but you still have to be a decent skier to fully utilize these advances.

it's taken me 3 seasons to really nail my reverse camber Spatulas. a lot of that comes from me not skiing them more than a few times a year, but this last season i really figured them out when i started taking them out on spring slush days. i'd ride them on groomers to situate my balance and center and then take them off and slush it up. it was a revelation to finally get the ski. 

other'n that, i'd say that buying into the whole fat ski phenom sort of hurt my skiing. 5 seasons ago when i got seriously back into the sport i plunked down on some Karmas and Mantras. Then i moved to AK King Salmons and Lib Techs. the funny thing is that i hadn't bothered to re-bone up on my skills, so here i was on longer, fatter skis and kind of flayling around. it wasn't until some of my more technically proficient buddies (instructors, former racers) took me under their wings and re-taught me how to carve and work on my angulation, that my skiing began to improve. in hindsight, i feel that when i jumped back into the sport hardcore that i should have started with a shorter, turnier ski to refresh my skills before moving into longer and fatter skis. this isn't to say that i suck and couldn't make it from the 'dola to the lot, but i would say that my improvement ratio was somewhat hindered.

long story short, as Mudfoot stated, a lot of folks are lulled into believing that they can buy their turns. and again, while i feel a lot of the advances in technology (reverse camber, rocker, less camber, softer tips, pintails, etc) can totally make it easier to get on skis, you still have to have a somewhat decent mastery of the basic skills (carving, completing a turn, driving the tips, etc) in order to actually take advantage of these elements.

finally, who in hell would ski a 125 waisted ski n a 170 length? that seems really short for that wide of a ski, unless you're like 4'5"...

   Yikes!  Look out below ....

I like K-mart (have a season pass), but there's no reason to ski anything much over 70mm wide at Killington.  It's Vermont, not Alaska!

 maybe those folks read that cover story (was it in Ski or Skiing) on "Hot New Technology" where they hyped up rocker and reverse camber, two technologies that have been employed in skis for almost a decade now (experimental cats were bending and rockering their own skis back in the late '90s and McConkey came up with the Spat between 2001-2003). as MF pointed out, never underestimate the power of marketing.

Yes, I have seen this trend over the past few seasons, especially at Killington and Okemo. Everyone has their own tastes and it's all about doing what's fun for the individual, but there does seem to be a drift towards the mega-wide powder skis in the East. Everything is getting wider and IMO most skiers who visit places in the East will never really use the skis the way they were designed. That's not to say the East never has powder days where they might come in handy, because they do, but these situations are few-and-far -between.

Sure, it does look silly when you see someone straight-running snowshed at Killington on a pair of K2 Pontoons, but if that's what people want to do to have fun, go for it. I just think it puts a hurting on us guys who like skis in the 66-72 range. The more the fatties and wide skis become popular, the more they sell and less attention is given to producing skis in this range, outside of race stock.

The interesting thing to note is that you very rarely see women on skis that are way oversized for their preferred terrain and ability. The reason, I think, is obviously the fact that women typically don't feel a need to portray an image of gnar. Us guys, however, are more likely to want something big, burly, and bad-looking. The manufactuers know this and, so far, they are doing a very good job at playing on this. IMO, of course. If I'm a guy skiing on the 72mm carver while all my buddies are moving up to the 100 MM Line Prophets, I won't be skiing on the 72mm models for long. Don't want to be known as the guy with the smallest tool.  

This could be another .. "You might just be a redneck" kind of thread.

If you prefer straps to ski brakes, and not just in deep snow.. You might just be a retro grouch!

If all your skis are narrower than your boot soles...  You might just be a retro grouch!

 that's tying into the age old adage about over compensation, you know longer skis = shorter penis.
that said, i ski a 99mm as my every day and while we certainly don't have blue ice out here in Tahoe, they hold up quite nicely on our version of "Cali ice".

i think you'll find that there's a number of skis out there in the 78-99mm range that will perform just as good as something in the 66-72mm range, both in terms of edge hold and shorter turning radius. you just have to look.

let's face it, 95mm is the new 75mm...

but yeah, i think we're all a little guilty of buying gear that we may not specifically need. it's hard not to get sucked into the "game" of seeing which pros are riding what skis, what the hot trend of the day is, etc. it's much easier to pick up a ski mag or a movie and buy what they are pushing in the ads or the gear tests than it is to go out and demo. some folks don't want to spend the time doing the research and trying a bunch of skis.

what's more is that i have witnessed many a ski shop ski salesman cater to the obvious "gaper" pushing them toward what is hot rather than what they should be skiing for their ability (i.e. pulling a slick used car salesman on them). top that off with the simple fact that most folks totally over-estimate their abilities (the average guy is NOT gonna walk into the shop and say "I ski 5 days a year, i'm an advanced beginner" instead they're gonna double or triple the days a year and bump themselves up a few levels on the scale), not to mention that the average person is unable to accurately and succinctly verbalize what they are looking for in a ski (i've had a number of shop owners tell me that i'm an exception because i can tell them where i ski, how i ski, and what i don't like about my current skis and i can grasp concepts about radius and flex easily, thus they can actually pick out skis that i might like and would fit my style rather than just saying "this is the hot ski, buy it.")

in the end there's always going to be folks of lesser ability buying gear way over their heads because they read about it in a magazine, saw it in a movie or some shop owner told them to buy it. you can't change that and you can't really harsh on these folks. if they're having fun and staying out of your way, what's the problem? if anything, they're supporting the economy and insuring that the ski companies will continue to churn out skis.  now if these self-same individuals are standing on my tails in the lift line, cutting me off on the runs, and endangering me and others, well then the need to be stopped!

 Irip, you described your observation well enough that I had an image in my head.  Thanks for the laugh. 

On Topic, I think nolo started a similar thread last spring about her observations in Montana.  Spot on!

I used to go for the high-end, over-my-head gear when I was younger -- not just in skiing but other sports-- so I can't really knock anyone. That's part of being young I guess and nothing wrong with wanting to go this route.  When you are new to something you also tend to want to not look like the guy who doesn't know what he is doing so you tend to buy things you really don't need. It's only normal. As you grow older and/or gain experience, you finally discover you are just wasting your time, money, and fun by buying things you really can't or don't use the way they were designed to be used.

sure there is try skiing in 3ft of fresh pow on a pair of 70mm carving skis...it can be done but its not easy.

     you know from the looks of those pics you took of what i think are you skis....it looks like you have a few fattys in there...

I just shake my head grooming in the mornings watching people skin up and then snowplow back down. Some of them are just endurance junkies and like the pain of skinning uphill and just survive on their way to the bottom.

I just do not understand the idea of buying equipment because of how you look with it. They seem to forget that you will also be seen with it as you are attempting to use it. These are also the people that will have equipment based excuses as to why they are not skiing very good on a given day. We had a word for these people growing up it was poser.

I kind of like these people being out on the hill. It gives us entertainment for the chairlift ride.

Now if someone is tearing up groomers with a rockered powder ski more power to them.

I once watched my 130 lb, 5'7" (then 32 now 42) wife ski a expert run in St. Anton on 200 mm Rosi 7S skis in waist deep powder and she did it really well.  I think those were 65 or 63 mm at the waist?  People think buying the "best" gear will make them a great skier & they forget they should learn how to ski first.  Gear, no matter how good can't make up for lousy skiing!!! 

Watching the MSP Deep, I saw the technology affect the technique. And it's really something a retro-grouch can dig. Partially rockered powder skis and the whole group of RR skis make it fairly easy to side slip in powder. And the risk of hooking up and getting spanked is minimized, as the skis just don't hook up or catch at the tip or tail. So the skiers were doing crazy, scary lines and making them.

 ^you talking about Sean Pettit's power-slide technique?

i mean how many of you remember McConkey's infamous waterski run in, i believe, Alaska? he pretty much just side slid the whole thing, then again he was on waterskis and the pitch was def 55 degrees+

i actually kind of like watching the more "rough" technique some of the younger skiers have, especially when they're hitting serious wicked steep and big lines. that said i also really enjoy watching Plake and Schmidt and Hatrop rip equally steep and big lines with their OG pop turn finesse.

that's what's "great" about reverse camber skis: they smear, scrub, slide, slarve, turns like nobody's business. the key is learning how to "carve" 'em (something i started working on last season). again, as has been said, they are merely a tool and like all tools need to learned how to use properly to get the most out of them.

i remember skiing with a buddy at Beaver Creek years ago. he took me through a bowl to ski powder. it ended up being powder on top of icy moguls. he ripped through it on some hella short (170) Head Super Shapes like nobody's business. at the bottom i was grimacing and wishing i'd had my Spatulas with me. he said he didn't understand the appeal of such skis (keep in mind this was probably 2004/2005, so the whole reverse camber craze wasn't as huge as it's being made out now). i told him the cool thing about those skis was that they operated like a forklift. those of you who have driven forklifts may know that they turn from the rear wheels. this allows them to virtually turn on a dime, so they can navigate the tight spaces in storage warehouses. that's how a Spatula feels. you can scrub a turn and pivot like you're turning on a dime. that and you seem to "float" on the powder. there's more of a burn on your quads if you aren't properly balanced, but overall there's less work than if you're doing the Old School bounce style/carving you would do on skinnier skis. when i explained all of this to him he smiled and said "Cool, but i'd still like to feel the powder and get down in it and really carve it. But if it makes you enjoy the experience more, go for it!" That said, it's taken me 3 good seasons to really figure out the Spatula and all that it has to offer (it ain't great on groomers, but they can be skied, it's equally awesome in slush and spring corn as it is in pow, etc). I did spend an awful lot of time not skiing them properly and side-sliding a lot more than i should have, but that just comes with experience and figuring out the ski.

i think, too, a lot of the younger skiers we're seeing in the films aren't coming from the serious racing background that the last several generations of skiers have come from. people forget that McConkey and Plake had pretty serious race/mogul competition backgrounds. ditto for the likes of Rahlves and Davenport. i think a good number of the kids in the films these days are coming from park background or they're self-taught.

a good film to check out is The Edge of Never, where Glen Plake takes this young freerider Kye Peterson to Chamonix to ski the line that killed his father Trevor Peterson. you get to see this park kid soak up mountaineering and Old School big mountain techniques and mesh the two together, which is really cool. 

then again, there's a BIG difference between a young kid smearing his way down a 55+ degree Alaskan spine on top-of-the-line gear and some gaper flayling down a 35degree hill on the latest gear...

No doubt, I have some fat skis.  I believe the gear should enhance the experience.  If your conforming to the skis/binders, then there is something wrong.  I've got a pair of Megawatts that are now 3 years of age, they only come out to play in the uber deep.  Skiing them on opening day in the east would be a detriment to the experience.
 Most would be well served (ie..ski better) on a reasonable intermediate ski.  I certainly have some big skis in the line up.  However, if a ski or product does not compliment what I'm trying to do, I'll get rid of it quick.
 I suppose my general observation would be that it appears far more important in 09/10 to be trendy in the lift line than ripping on the hill.

Edited by iriponsnow - 11/11/09 at 3:28am

That, but more just being able to smear any turn to extend it down the fall line. Then, dealing with terrain obstacles you don;'t have to hit an exact number of turns before a rock, tree, or choke; you can do a couple and extend the last one until you're in position. what an advantage that is in tight lines.

The Valentine's Day storm was 3 seasons ago now.  Killington hasn't seen over 2 honest feet in one day since then.  I had a blast on last December's 2 ft day on 66mm carving skis. 

The typical 40 day a year, every weekend Killington skier will see your 3 feet of fresh pow 2-4 times a decade and it will be tracked out in a jiffy.  Prudence suggests renting, not buying to cover those infrequent needs. 

On the other hand,  there's nothing like more fancy new toys to play with so long as you can turn safely on them (no straightlining, skiing over other skiers' skis, or exclaiming "dude, you're in my line.")

 one could always choose to recycle rather than stock up on new gear that's gonna get trashed:
http://wherewillyouski.blogspot.com/2007/10/junkboarding-eastern-way-of-life.html

we can't junkboard very well out here (Tahoe) given the amount of sharks and other nasties that hide underneath early snow coverage.

Skis can make you ski better but not be a better skier.

Revisit: Big Skis can't  ski
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/82069/big-skis-can-t-ski

There are alot of skiing fanatics that hang around ski websites like this one and read all the magazines that for some reason are pushovers for ski and gear suggestions thinking because they have the gear they will look and ski the part of those they want to emulate. All while thinking they have joined some kind of good ole boy club having severaal pairs of skis they don't have a clue how to turn and of course, ski clothing to match the pictures on screen. And most of them can't ski for shit.

Marketing hype has robbed many of your skiing souls as well as your wallets, and purses.

It's not about the ski, it's about the skier.

+1

Skis also cannot make you a skier. There are skiers and then there are those who ski. I think that many of the people observed and described above would be best described as people who ski.

Buying the latest and greatest gear certainly isn't a new trend. I still remember when I was on my honeymoon at Whistler in 1994, there were scores of Japanese skiers in Bogner 1 pieces with Rossi race skis making wedge turns. $$$$$$$$ All for what. They wanted to look good.

In a way this is a testament to the fact that marketing works. If Skiing says that "Rockered skis will change the way you ski", then many folks will mindlessly go and get a rockered ski. Lets face it 95% of ski stores will NOT push a guy looking to drop $800-1000 on a pair of 110mm boards down to the 78-96mm range because it is what he really needs. They will just take the sale.

 I think skiers who started off of straight skis vs. someone who has been skiing 10 (or so) years or less have an advantage. Skiers who shied straight skis have techniques in their bag of knowledge that a recent skier just does not have. These are techniques that are still needed. I think the reason that newer skiers have so much trouble with bumps is that a good amount of bump technique comes from straight skis. 

I think you have to reel yourself back in to reality regarding the conditions you ski in the majority of the time and make a decision less on emotion and more on a utilization- value basis. Would I like to have the majority of my ski days powder days, Absolutely. Are the majority of my ski days packed powder (very generous description) frozen granular , unfortunately yes.

I get the impression a lot of people are in the ski shop on a little bit of an emotional high making that ski purchase more on a fantasy than a reality. I'd like to ski a rocker on a powder day on a big mountain before I croke. Skied with a guy last year at Alta on Pontoons and he just kicked my butt all day long .  He went everywhere in complete control in waist deep , didn't need to ski fast to get through it and made it look simple.  I felt like I wrestled an alligator at the end of the day. In fairness I have to him props and not say it was the ski, but the guy is a little older , has a bad knee and nerve damage in a leg and just goes anywhere in complete control over there on the Superior lift.  So, I'm convinced that this type of ski can ramp up the fun factor, but to get any real use out of it it helps to be skiing up in LCC in Utah and not between snow making towers! Just my 2cents.

ya but straight skiing techniques and shaped ski techniques are somewhat different from one another. For example Straight skis tend to make long, sweeping turns because of their shape. To get them to make tighter carves, they require lots of forward pressure from the skier. Most straight-ski devotees tend to skid their skis around instead of actually carving with them for this reason.On Shaped Skis Its more of a carve and you are also lower to the ground and your feet are farther apart ( if you know fow to ski shaped ski). However i have never skied on straight skis i have known people that have and this is what they told me. Though my dad has a pair of old K2 Comp-610s with Salomon S444 bindings mounted on them....might have to see if he will let me take them out this year


information taken from http://www.omerandbobs.com/info%20center/winter%20faq/alpineski1.html

For many, ski graphics and packaging has more to do with appeal than the actual handling characteistics, IMO. I think many casual skiers approach a ski purchase as they would a car or motorcycle. Would the average skier rather purchase a ski with hot graphics and names like HotRod Top Fuel, Dobermann, and Afterburner or a ski with plain black graphics and a name like Gransport? Most skiers on the hill would probably have a lot more fun and tire less on the Gransport, but they choose the Top Fuel because it conjures up an image of a mega 500CC Harley or F-18. If the Top Fuel was painted pink and named the 'Snow Bunny',  I don't think it would sell that well and most would percieve it as a wimpy ski. Since many skiers make purchase decisions based on appeal or popularity, they don't know what they are missing. 

Like I said earlier, this is only natural, especially if you are younger and everyone else around you is purchasing and skiing on the flashy top-end gear. I think many of us probably all have been guilty of this sometime during our skiing careers. You get to the point, however, where you realize something isn't working right. Sooner or later, if you ski long enough and really are interested in advancing, you will realize what's on your feet is what's holding you back. There is no shame in being seen on skis in the middle-range of a line. For most skiers, that's all they will ever really need, IMO. It doesn't mean less fun, it means you are on a ski more appropriate for the speeds you usually ski at and you might stop avoiding moguls in fear of the out-of-control rodeo ride you can get on a stiff ski you can't really handle. 

Oh kk just wanted to make sure you were not dissing fat skis xD  But yeah agree with you i see people in the lift line sometimes with all this fancy equipment yet when they try and ski down they can barley make one good turn. I think there is some aspect of cool when it comes to skiing but its more important to have fun then look cool while coming down a slope. I dont know maybe im being hypocritical cause when i go skiing with my friends (who are not as good of skiers as me) somtimes they say how cool i look with cool my skis, ski helmet, coat ect. look. But hey at least i can get down the hill on my cool skis