The Perfect Softshell-does it exist?

Here's a little Monday morning rant.  I thought id start up a less serious thread regarding softshells. Ive  been experimenting the past few years with some different versions (and some hard or quasi hard shells) and it seems that some brands can get a couple of things right, but never the whole package of features.  Here are some of the things that others may have not focused on but id love to see, all in one jacket

General Rule- must be comfortable,  "wind proof", non bulky, and slightly to very stretchy. 

1) Sleeve/hand gauntlets.  Love em. Thought they were ridiculous but after trying them for a few days i found them to be a useful innovation Ive never considered.  The gauntlets on the Kjus jackets are the gold standard so far.  (PS I dont own any kjus but borrowed one for a week).

2) Powder Skirt- Let us all be so lucky as to need this.  Preferably removable and/or attachable to any brand of pant. 

3) Fleece lined collar and zipper.  After fighting my cloudveil and solstice shells last year for a season i broke out my vintage Patagonia light smoke.  The fleece lined zipper and collar area have a comfort factor i forgot about. Why cant more makers get this right

4) Real Helmet Compatible Hood- I'm clearly in the minority but unlike others, i do like a hood for resort skiing with my helmet.  When you are on a windy lift, or exposed in foul weather, particularly in the am, there is no easier way to cut the chill then throw the helmet over the hood.  Works quickly and easily.  I run cold but i suggest trying it before you poo poo this as wimpy.  East coaster take note.  Ive had at least one manufacturer tell me that they dont see a need for hoods and resort skiing.  I respectfully disagree.   One  great idea is that one of the new outdoor research jackets, has a under helmet inner lining along with the hood. Id buy it, but That jacket lacks some of the other features on this list however.

5) Pit Zips, with larger pulls- OK if the shell is not event, i think pit zips are great, particularly as mid march starts.  However, why are some brands so difficult to open and close (a water tight seal?? ) and why cant the pulls be a little easier to use with gloves.

6) Interior pockets- i dont care if you are touring, skinning or riding the greens with the kids, unless you are a camelback fan, pockets are useful and necessary. 

7) Pass holder - i love not having to think about where my pass is. One less thing to worry about ...@#%@% where did i put my balaclava.

8) Design- would it be too hard to make it a solid color that is NOT neon, and does not have screaming logos and color contrasted zippers?  I saw the new marmot superhero shell yesterday, and i can swear that the marmot chest logo increased at least 20-30 percent over some of the stuff i already own.  No Gaperwear

***OPTIONAL **

9) Country of Manufacture- this is obviously a personal preference, but id also like a shell not made in china, on political rather then quality grounds.


So far westcomb comes the closest Ive seen....any other suggestions.

I love Burton AK Gear, but I don't have much experience with many different high performance jackets/pants.

 i would have suggested a cloudveil shell, i just picked up a cloudveil shadow peak  i haven't ski on it yet, but its bad to the bone. 

when i look at all your criteria you have pretty much narrowed it down to arcteryx. the country of origin is a killer.

here is my shell...

I have the Arcteryx Gama soft shell, made about 7 years ago, so it is the Scholler fabric. The fit is trim and the fabric is very stretchy and comfortable, and your list aside, the fabric is the deal I think. The Scholler fabric is slightly water repellant, it doesn't breath well, and it isn't wind proof. So, it's just an expensive synthetic sweater as far as I can tell. Looks great, all tailored like, but doesn't do a whole lot.

The shell you show, is that softshell fabric?



Edited by davluri - 11/9/09 at 10:50pm

 Funny, I was thinking the same thing recently as I got a few shells with the intention of returning one or the other.

The best Soft shell I have in my "jacket slut" wardrobe is a Marmot(not sure the model) 
It has all the features that you describe except large zip pulls and wrist gaiters.
I love the hood that goes over my helmet-for real.  I can't tell you how much warmer I am when I put my hood up.

Most recently I purchased the Patagonia Light Smoke, but I haven't had a chance to try it out on the slopes yet.

Here are my 2010 season jacket purchases.
(modeled by my ski diva friends at a tuning clinic)
First: Isis Diva soft shell(bumball).  UP side, visibility, nice shape, goes lower in the back to protect from back gap, nice pocket placement, hood goes over my helmet nicely, detachable powder skirt.  DOWN side the fabric is noisy.  I am not usually fond of a jacket that you can hear when you move.
Second: Patagonia Light Smoke(vermillion) UP side, all the features that are listed above, but the sleeves are a bit long and I'm not sure if I will like that when wearing gloves.
Third: Obermeyer Prague (sunshine) insulated jacket with most of the features I want, and has a hood that will go over my helmet, but I'm not sure it will be a good fit while skiing, as its a bit more snug than the fit of the soft shells.

Next up:  The perfect woman;  Does she exist?  

Wait till you see my list of criteria.  It makes shopipng for a softshell look like "pick a card, any card" ...   

 Do-Work, I'm crushed!

  Don't be...  I'm hoping to find someone who supports gear whoredom as much as Terry's girl...      That's requirement #1! 

This place always makes me feel better about myself 

I start thinking what a gear whore I am and then I come here and people are obsessing about jackets for god's sake.  Throw something on and go skiing

Good point do work.  I still have hopes for a shell at least...


Edited by kbuzz - 11/10/09 at 1:57pm

Arcteryx Stingray.  Kinda soft shell but meets all your needs.  Loved it so much I bought my wife one.  By the way, I'm lucky to have the perfect wife, she out skis most guys I know & has already made history at Big Sky, but that's another story. 

Check out the Arcteryx web site!!!  Stingray, Stinger & Sidewinder jackets.

the shadow peak is GORE-TEX® Performance 3L performance shell. actually i find it softer then the gore-tex soft shell material.  go figure.  you can learn more at there website.  http://www.cloudveil.com/mens/jackets/hardshell/shadow+peak+jacket--6025/ 

Gotta love three women who keep the vacuum within arms reach. 

I have recently developed a fetish for the Millet line of soft shells for some reason....I have not tried one on yet...but want to...
I like a few of their models:

http://www.millet.fr/catalogue/great-day-gtx-jkt-p-602.html?temp=1&typo_prod=1:int&cPath=62_65_69_86



http://www.millet.fr/catalogue/side-cut-gtx-jkt-p-609.html?typo_prod=1:int&temp=1&cPath=62_65_69_86

 We are looking at bringing Millet in next year, nice stuff. 

I would love to see some Millet


That is three women who just got done vacuuming up wax shavings after  waxing and tuning skis in the dining room.......think about it 

*in fact, you can see a bit of the terminator stand in the picture 

I have the same issues. I love the cloudveil and the arc' stuff but Arc' seems to have an issue with just putting in a nice mesh pocket like Couldveil that's big enough to stuff a balaclava in it.   I have the Arc' Fury which for non-wet (above freezing) is about as perfect as it gets, 3 kinds of windstopper, real nice soft-hand fabric and big hood, very plain, just needs one larger pouch inside.

 So, finn, which of these would you pick?

Here's another example of what im talking about. Backcountry.com announces a new line of gear, including jackets.  Excellent!!!! Then you look at each model and each one has features of my original post but cant seem to combine it all or close to it. Too bad looks like nice stuff.

http://stoicgear.com/home/mens-apparel/mens-jackets/

For example here is what seems to be an excellent soft shell. HOwever, it does not have a powder skit nor guantlets

http://www.backcountry.com/outdoorgear/Stoic-Welder-Hi-Softshell-Jacket-Mens/SIC0014M.html




Edited by kbuzz - 11/13/09 at 7:37am

BeyondClothing just shipped my new shell this week.  I'll report in once I have my hands on it. (I need tall sizes, so my choices are pretty limited.)

Has #s1/4/5/6/8/9 covered.  (pockets/hood are optional, as it's all custom.)  You can get a sleeve pocket to put your pass in, if that's good enough.  Not 100% sure what the lining's like, but most soft shells are pretty 'soft' on the inside already IMO.

No powder skirt available, but that's about it.  Not that I'm likely to be in waist-deep powder anytime soon...

Please post when you get it. Ive been intrigued by them for a while. Cost is high but looks very solid. Did you go cold fusion or cold x?

Kbuzz, just curious why do you want a soft shell vs a hard shell. Real softshells have no laminates and are not really windproof. Many jackets are marketed as "softshells" for skiing but now incorporate a laminate barrier for increased water resistnce and are wind proof but less breathability than a real softshell. These are basicly hard shells with a softshell finish and strech. Then there are jackets that are marketed as hardshell but wear alot like a soft shell.

I have an insualted hardshell from volkl that is a few years old that matches most of the above 1-8.

Salomon Adrenaline 3 in 1.

True softshell,
Water proof and very breathable 10m water 10,000ghr breathable
Minimal logos
non contrast zips
Available in sane colours
Lots of pockets
Ski pass pocket
Mobile phone pocket with dialer tool (so you dont nee to remove gloves)
Full hood (removable)
Snowskirt with standard trouser popers
Removable insulation (Wearable as apres ski jacket in its own right)
Under arm extra breathable panels (all the venting of a pit zip without the hole for snow to go on

Only thing missing are the wrist cuffs

Quote:
I ordered a "Cold Fusion X" jacket.  I should have it tomorrow or Saturday for a hands-on review.  I have high hopes (not least because of the pricetag... but this should last me a while.)

Trek

I would go with the patagonia. Ive learned the hard and expensive way that if something is a slight annoyance in the house or around town, it will be a BIG annoyance on the slope.  Long sleeves are good for skiing, plus i have rarely seen anything practically speaking, wrong with a patagucci piece.

Tramano-you are correct. I was using the term soft shell as a generic. Yes real soft shells are not wind proof.  I have a one or two of these already and are only useful, for high active stuff.  So i should have specified softer what ever version it is and windproof.  A good example would be the mountain hardware "kramer"/synchro  but its so freakin hideous and looks like a billboard that i couldnt fathom wearing it.  Another example is the Or mithril. It is also a great fabric, but i have yet to see it applied to a skier specific model.

If you like OR this might be one to look at. I like that the hood is removable since usually unless I want it on... the hood is always in the way.

I think meets 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ( not many internal pockets ), and 8...

http://www.outdoorresearch.com/site/m_s_motto_jacket.html

My new shell arrived!  (I'll try to get up some pictures up at some point.)  They were quoting four weeks when I placed my order, and it shipped exactly one month later.  As mentioned earlier, I got a "Cold Fusion X" shell.

The short version:

Upsides: fits well, seems extremely well-made, looks great.  Fit is just about perfect with a base layer and a fleece underneath.  I got the 'normal' fit; I assume the 'athletic' fit would be closer to skin-tight, but might bind up if you need more than 1 layer underneath.  Sleeves are plenty long -- could probably be a half-inch shorter without any issue.  Zip-off hood fits perfectly over my helmet, and has multiple adjustments for wearing without one (or if you just have a smaller head).

It was raining in Boston today and I took it for a walk.  Moderately warm, seems reasonably windproof and very waterproof.  I'm pretty sure it will keep me dry and warm on the slopes with appropriate layers underneath, but won't cook me on a mild day.  Definitely warmer than my Mountain Hardwear "Icestone" jacket; seems similar to the MH "Alchemy" in terms of the material.

Downsides: no thumb loops on the sleeves, despite being listed on the invoice (and having paid for them!)  I left a message with their customer service line.  I'm hoping that can be fixed.  Also, it only has a zipper pull on the upper slide of the main zipper, and nowhere else!  No way I'll be able to use any of the other ones wearing gloves without attaching pulls myself.  I can do that, but for $350+ I was sort of expecting zipper pulls on a cold-weather jacket.  I'll bring that up when I talk to them.

Some details:

It has a fleece lining around the neck, and a little flap of the shell material that goes over the top of the zipper.

No powder skirt, but there are cinch pulls on the left/right side at the waist to tighten it.  (Not obvious from the description online.)  With the pretty good custom fit and that, I don't see much snow getting in there.  But a nice elastic powder skirt option would still be better, as it helps hold the bottom of the jacket in place.

There are two front pockets by default -- those colored body panels are actually pockets too.  (This wasn't completely clear online.)  I also got one sleeve pocket, one external chest pocket, and one internal chest pocket.  The internal chest pocket is pretty deep, so it might be a little awkward to fish a cellphone out of there quickly.

Overall: looks pretty good, minus the issue with the thumb loops and the lack of zipper pulls.  Guess I'll get to grade their customer service too.  If you are hard to fit, this is a very viable jacket option.

 mathhiaus- what the potential for collar zip burn/chafe? does the fleece look sufficient?