Racing skis - what's the deal?

I'm confused about why so many people say that race skis are unforgiving, not for beginners etc.  My first pair of skis were a pair of Atomic Betarace 10.22's (which I still use today).  I've tried many different types of skis and don't see what the big difference is other than the race skis are stiffer than some of the others. I use them as all-mountain skis and they seem to work just fine. Maybe my level of ability isn't high enough to be able to tell the difference.  As far as the 10.22's dimensions, they seem to be right there with most of the newer carver-type skis. When I brought them in to a local ski shop for sharpening, they immediately started putting them down saying I should get newer skis.  Is there some truth to this or was it just a sales pitch?  Does anyone else use race skis as "daily drivers" or am I an oddball?  What am I missing here? Are these skis hindering my development?
Edited by Bomber - 11/5/09 at 5:39am

There is difference between race skis and race skis ;) You have "race skis" which you buy in store, and then you have real race skis, made by race departments of particular ski factory. From outside they both look same, but they are far from same. And difference between this is huge. They have different radius to start, they have different stiffness, and in general they ski totally different. I would actually agree, that race stock skis they are totally unskiable for beginners, and probably also for most of normal people. They feel totally different then normal store skis, even if they carry same name on top sheet. But once you get used to them, you won't change them for anything... at least I don't. There's no way I would ever pick non race stock skiing, even if nowadays I'm just Sunday skier on public ski hills.

Where do you ski?  When you say you use these as all-mountain does that mean you enjoy them in powder or glades?  If you're just carving groomers then it makes perfect sense that you're happy with those.  If you use them everywhere and you're still happy then consider yourself lucky.  I'm always wanting to buy new skis, and sometimes do.

I use themmostly on groomers.

I don't think you're missing anything, then.  Ski those suckers into the ground.

Well, um....if they work for you, then, yeah, they are just fine.  Race skis are kinda sorta maybe getting more forgiving all the time.  In that, because of advances in ski design and materials, you can now take a ski, such as a race stock SL, with lots of sidecut, make it so that it bends pretty easily longitudinally so that it's relatively easy to get a carved turn started, but it's very stiff torsionally so it doesn't roll off the edge once you've established a major league edge angle. 

Having said all that...I've skied  all the beta Atomic race skis, starting before the 10.22 and going up through the present (Doubledeck GS, and trust me, there's no comparison between what you're skiing on and today's Atomic race skis.  The 2009 D2s I'm skiing on are much easier at the turn initiation, hold better, and are much quicker in the transition...

I use race SL skis on the groomed (consumer race, not race stock!) and really, they are pretty easy to ski. You could ski around and never see their true performance and wonder what the fuss is about though; to get the best out of them and have them perform to their capability you do have to have decent technique and be able to pressure them well, then they really wake up - it's like tehy have a split personality. the harder you can push them the more they like it :) It's like you can drive a high performance car around town at 2.5k rpm without too much trouble these days and not understand what the fuss is about but to really get the most out of it and use it's full capability you need the skills to be able to push it hard - that is where you will see the real difference between it and a 'normal' car and you see it in spades.

I do wonder what the practical difference really is between skis like the fischer progressor 9, volkl tigershark 12 etc. and consumer race skis other than a few mm more width.

I wouldn't use them all mountain though since they are difficult in deep snow. They do well in crud if you can carve through it due to their stiffness though.

I think it's all a bunch of hype.  The race ski will bend just fine if you weigh the same as the racers and are traveling at the same speed as the racers making the same sized turns, so long as the snow's hard enough.  It's simple physics.  The ski doesn't know you are not a racer.

Of course if you don't know how to tip a ski, and are getting by on being forgiven by a ski that's easy to force through movements it wasn't designed to make because it has no grip, then you might find a race ski will require you learn how to ski.

Racing skis are a little to engage in to and more importantly noticeably harder to disengage from the turn. OTT, they are a lot of fun when you can let then run.

     Quote:
Pretty cool (and good) analogy given today's sports cars and the movement to higher strung engines, where you really do not see any performance below 5k; and today's technology advancement in ski's making the race ski's somewhat more forgivable. 

Could just be that I am a car nut and love fast GS ski's, but what the heck!

Ya gots ta Gas on it!

For real race stock skis, this analogy with sports cars doesn't work completely. It's much more like Ghost said. If you ski them the way racers ski them, they are great fun. But they are not made for easy cruising at low speed. For example with race stock GS skis, you need some more speed to engage into turn. With low speed, it's not really all that easy to make nice carve turns, so they "force" you into higher pace and more work. But at least for me, that's all fun with skiing anyway.
Consumer race skis are different. First of all, they are much softer, so it's easy to use them with low speed cruising, where you apply much less power to ski.
But nevertheless, I still think race stock skis can easily be used for free skiing on public courses. I use them for almost all my life, and skiing with softer non-racing ski just doesn't make same fun for me. But I agree we are different, and we have different opinion what fun is :)

I really enjoyed the three pairs of race stock SL skis I've had (one of which came from an honest-to-goodness World Cup skier's quiver. A girl. But whatever). I've also got me a pair of Jr. race-stock GS skis that pretty much had their way with me the one time I took them out. In a good way, though.

 I think I can manage a "real" slalom ski. I wouldn't even try on a GS.

Actually I think it's easier to "manage" higher speed racing skis than the lower speed racing skis, you will just be going faster.  SL skis are quicker and give you less time to adjust and recover from mistakes.  However,  SG skis have more severe consequences if you don't recover.

Perhaps you should extend the analagy for race stock skis to actual race cars, like F1 cars, where you can't actually drive it around town at low speeds because the engine requires the high speed airflow for proper intake pressure and cooling.  Although when you get into that sort of detail the analogy falls apart again... Although it still works if you refer to the difficult user interface and drivability of F1 cars requiring driver ability, skill, and training.

Agreed. To stretch the car analogy further they probably go beyond consumer cars and fall into the Formula 1 type category: unless you have the skill to drive it hard enough to keep heat in the tyres and brakes the car will be impossible to drive.

EDIT: looks like Muaddib got there first!

I think you guys are splitting hairs.  At low speeds when you don't engage the suspension and apply gas through the turn a sports car is much more likely to want to plow instead of engage the apex.  Just like Primoz said with the race ski, you need speed and technique to engage the turn and use the race ski to its potential, but imo race ski's today are easier to ski than my race ski's from the 90s.  I should mention here, I have never skied a SG ski, so whatever Ghost posts is usually out of my realm! :-D

You guys are pushing it with the F1 comparison.  Not one person on this board could drive a F1 car.  Plenty of people here could link some turns on a race SG ski.  Remember 99% of drivers cannot push a consumer sports car like a GT3 passed its limits.

I'd say quite a few people could get the F1 car out onto a track and make it move forward... but I'm sure the team owner would run out onto the track to drag the 'driver' out of the car before he/ she hurt the vehicle or themselves. Not really 'driving' but... hey it's moving.

I'll guarantee it is the same thing with a current SG ski. I have a pair, I ski them a couple runs now and then in the early morning... I shouldn't. No one should unless in a course with B netting, they are a very very special tool.

Then again, if you never engage the edges who cares? Then they are just a big, damp, stiff plank that doesn't 'chatter' as it skids sideways, smearing it's way down the slope. I want to knock those people down and take their skis away, it is painful to watch.

    Quote: Did you see them try to drive an F1 car on Top Gear?  It took him a ton of tries to get it moving. 

An F1 car vs SG ski's is not a valid comparison.  I'd say its a lot more like a GT3 RS or a F430 Stradale.

The whole car comparison really breaks down pretty quick if you analyze it too much, but if you want to use analogies to describe skis and cars, well, race stock SG skis (there used to be 'consumer' SG skis, not any more so saying "race stock" is pretty redundant) are about as frightening and dangerous as you can get in the ski world. Sure they can be 'skied' on by a civilian but when they come 'alive' and you drive them, well they scare the sh*t out of me, and I don't scare easily.

But this really isn't the point of this thread, the OP is asking "are my skis holding me back?"

I'd say, probably not. I'd also venture to guess that the OP is fairly new (well, within the last 5 to 8 years) to the sport, he's a 'self-taught' skier and he skis less that 25 days a year. He pivots his skis to turn them, so the ski he has feels smooth and stable, the 22m TR isn't trying to hook-up at moderate edge angles and the stiffer flex is nice and planky, it won't chatter at all. So the ski isn't holding him back, he'd progress faster with a more appropriate ski and lessons, but getting better isn't about better skis, it's about directed practice.

I apologize to the OP if this post seems judgmental or harsh, but all the talk of 'race stock' blah, blah, blah is really missing the point.

It's OK to skid,really. What would impress me is a skier that could make those RS skis rip off groom. Anyone know what the RPM shift range is in a F1? No.

Yeah, I'd love to see Michael Schumacher mudbog his F1 Ferrari. That would be sweet.

I think the current FIA rules limit the engine to 19000 rpm. And from playing Gran Turismo, these cars need to shift at redline.

But going back to the original question, I personally use "race" skis (Dynastar Speed Course Comp and Atomic GS11). Both pair are 176cm and 21M radius. I think what makes these skis good for a normal skier like myself are the lifter plates and bindings. Consider I only ski in PA where the snow is very hard or icy. But I don't have any problem skiing the whole mountain on these skis.

I could imagine that newer FIS reg skis with lower plates and larger radii would be much tougher to ski on the whole mountain.

Also, another point worth making is that many people will try to ski on race type skis with recreational boots. I made this mistake the first time I used my Dynastars. They were nearly impossible to control. I got a pair of 130 flex boots, and that also made a huge difference.

So I will conclude in saying, race or race stock skis can be used as your only ski if:

1. You ski in a place with very hard pack or icy snow.
2. You have a lifter plate and lifter bindings.
3. You use older race skis with a smaller radius and that are shorter in length.
4. You have a pair of boots with a flex >100.

Hope this helps.
Edited by mx597turbo - 11/6/09 at 1:40pm

Where can i buy real race skis?

Hi
"Racing skis - what's the deal?"
If I may be permitted to add my $0.02 worth:
I find race skis to be a good challenge.  And good for your skiing if you learn to use them.
Most SL and GS are perfectly OK to ski recreationally, provided you give them some respect.  And you won't be let down by the ski if you want to amp it up.  You can also impress your mates (If so inclined) in the Powder/bumps/park/pipe as they are more of a challenge there.
I don't think Super-G or Downhill boards are practical for public slopes. (They are really impressive for standing with in the cable-car, though). Basically, they are designed to be stable at speed and really need to be going faster than a Club skier can ski before they can be bent into a curve.  If you watch the speed-event teams training on the glacier they have several safety marshalls all radioed-up all down the course to ensure a clear track.  You occasionally hear of a racer colliding with a marshal. That's frequently fatal.  Super-G and Downhill involve speeds of double that of GS.  Downhillers at Wengen are touching 100mph.  A sky diver is going only 30mph faster than that.

In most competition sports, there are the "Works Teams" where the pro's are issued with special equipment - not retail products.
You'll see works teams from Yamaha in Motorcycling, or Jaguar in GT Racing.  These machines bear only the most basic resemblance to production types.
It's the same in skiing Racing.
Like "Primoz" already said, There are race skis and Race Skis!
There are "Cheater" models that have the race graphics, but you can tell from the side-cut radius, width under-foot  and the length that they couldn't be used for racing in a FIS competition. Some of these Cheater Skis are great skis, though.
For all round the mountain especially if you are on an instructor training course, I'd pick Rossi 9X Oversize 185 any day of the week.  They will give you that accuracy on the icy carve, allow race tuning, but have the width underfoot to look after you in the variable and the deep.
Then there are Proper Race skis.  They are designed specifically for the race track, not for the deep, but if you take the race plate off them they make pretty good general purpose skis.
Factory
I find Factory SL and GS Skis from Fischer excellent.
Factory Skis are skis we get direct from the factory.  They were from batches made for the race teams.  The teams select-on-test and reject the ones that aren't perfect.  (They're the ones we get!).  They come with 0.5 degree base-bevel and 88 Degree side-edge cut.

Race Stock
Some of the top Team racers get 90 pairs of skis each a year to race on.  All different tunings and waxings.  At the end of the season, they sell them on.  These, I call "Race Stock".  They were tuned and used for racing.  You'll be lucky to get your hands on a good pair.
Standard "Shop" Volkl and Stoekli GS and SL skis are said to be Factory skis - or as good-as.  That is, these manufacturers don't make a 'punter' ski filled with polystyrene foam and put racey graphics on them and call them "Race-Carver": the same quality of ski is sold for recreation as is made for race.
K2 skis are usually a solid choice too with their wood core.
Salomon Race department skis are known as "Race Lab" skis.  You can usually tell by the Technician's labelling and the non-standard heavy duty plate and binding.
The top skiers get custom service.  Sometimes the works equipment is from another works!
The top racers sometimes can't get on with a works ski or boots.  My trainer in France showed me a pair of Lange boots she had used faked-up with a black and gold Rossignol Paint-job, as she was a Rossi Works skier.
Good things for club skiers about Factory and Race Stock Skis.

1. Simplicity.  No gimmicks.  No struts and bolt-ons.
2. Sandwich Construction, not Cap.  This means you can shave away the sidewall to allow the edging tool room to cut.  A cap ski with a damaged sidewall needs to go in the bin.  So you can't shave away the sidewall in a cap ski.  It's structural.
3. Strong construction,They are designed to take higher stresses without coming apart at the seams.
4. Strong Bindings: heavy plate and bindings that can be cranked up to 15 DIN if you want to. Most recreational skiers ski on DIN Settings of 4,5 or 6. I had a look at Didier Cuche's skis last year.  They went to 24 DIN.  However, with bindings it's best to have them set mid-point and not screwed up to the stops to keep the spring in its designed band.  If you are skiing fast in a race course, you do not want the ski vibrating off if you hit a rut. You need to be thinking of tightening up the bindings ahead of time.  Most Pro bindings you get in the shop will go to 15 DIN.  Note: If you are a superb skier, you may be so on top of your skis that they can stay on with loose settings.  The Racers of old must have been like this.  If you look at the equipment Jean-Claude Killy used in 1968 it looks delicate by today's standards.
5. Fitted Bindings not Rental bindings.  I really do not trust those atomic rental-rack rattly bindings.
6. Base material is better to absorb wax and comes with a lovely structure-pattern.  For the racer, the base is the key component in selecting a race ski.
7. Top performance is there if you ever need it.
8. As Ghost points out: you have to learn to ski properly.  Race skis need to be worked.  This is a great reason to move to race skis.
9. If you keep them sharp and get some training you will be able to move into a new area of performance.

Things to watch in a race-stock ski
A racer will have competition skis and training skis.  Some of the competition skis will be tuned to edge angles of 86 degrees (And maybe less).  Anything sharper than 88 or at most 87 Degrees are to be avoided.  They are super-sharp and require trained skills to manage them in use.  Also, they go blunt after 3 runs.  They are then unskiable.  You have to shave off so much metal, they wear out in weeks.
Also: remember they are sharp.  I've seen a ski tech slip with a file and slash an artery on the edge.  I also seen a mother ski over her daughter's arm.  Thank goodness her edges were round!
Another thing you'll notice is that race skis usually weigh noticeably more than recreational skis.  So you won't be selecting them for ski mountaineering.
Semipro skis.
I tried semi-pro skis like Rossignol Z15 Mutix.  The ones with the "Power-Arms". They are even more expensive than the Factory race skis.  At first They served me well in the new snowfall.  Until I got talked into taking some fellow aspiring instructor-racers for a spin.  I pushed them hard down a steep icy red and the skis wouldn't hold on the edge angle I'd inclined on to. (I'll admit it was probably a lot to do with me, but I was used to full-on GS skis.)  The left ski vibrated so much it came right off.  The cam heel binding rotated itself and jammed upside-down against the footplate.  I had to make my way on one ski back to the lodge and was late for my next meeting. The power-arms are a complete gimmick.  They are too big to carry with you, and I just kept the carbon-fiber ones in all the time.
Also, never buy a Rossi ski if it has the dread words "Made in Spain" written on the top.  My Z15's de-laminated, and when I took them for inspection the UK Importer told me it was acceptable tolerance for that ski.  But he was told to say that by his boss.  My local dealer told me that "everyone" knows that the Spanish ones de-laminate.

Summary
The big difference about race skis - apart from the reliability and power, is that a good tech can fettle them up to make them unbelieveably grippy on hardpack and ice.  So many club skiers think their skiing doesn't merit getting good skis or in sharpening them (let alone having them tuned).  With some confidence, and a good toolkit, you can tune your own skis.  But don't buy the 'shop' tools!  Shop tools are designed to ruin skis and therefore sell more new ones. Get tools from a race equipment supplier.  You probably need to send off for them.  In Europe I use the Worden Ski Catalogue and I choose Ski-Man tools.  Get a fixed angle file-guide.  Not a vario setting tool.
Why tune the skis?
If you can ski with the ski tipped-up on an edge-tilt of more than 50 Degrees, you will be able to carve good tight-apex turns.  To do that you need razor-sharp edges or else the'll skid and lose the bend.
The Base-Bevel is important.  If you start with the base flat and then alter the base-edge at 0.5 Degrees to that, it means you can work on the base edge later with diamond files without marking the precious base preparation.
(If you put a base-bevel on, you need to set the side-edge too, or else the skis will be un-skiable).
It also rotates the edge half a degree so that more of the edge bears against the ice when the ski is tilted right over.  Half a degree doesn't sound like much, but extend the line of the edge and it makes a huge difference.
How do I tune the edges?
You need to prepare the base edge and the side edge.  Ensure you know what the new skis come with on the edge.  Thay may already be tuned to 88 Degrees on the side and 0.5 Degrees on the base.
If they come out of the packet with 90 Degree edges you can take them to a tech to get them bevelled and set first time and then just dress them up with a diamond file in the file-guide after each session.
Ensure the tech is a race ski-man.  I've seen so-called 88 degree edges that still had sidewall in the way because the tech didn't do the job correctly.
DIY
After doing the 0.5 Degree base bevel (with the correct tool)  you need to ensure the sidewall is scraped away (Sidewall remover required)  to allow the side-edge file to cut an 88 on the side edge (88 Degree File-Guide required)

You use engineer's marking-blue on the edges before cutting that will show blue left on the bits you missed.


Do Club Racers need to tune?
If one of my students tells me they are having trouble with edge control for instance, I say "Let's have a look at the condition of the edges".  Many times I tell someone that I couldn't ski (even as well as he is managing) on equipment in such a poor condition.
The guy is learning but he makes the task impossible because the equipment will physically not permit the maneuvre he is attempting.
Give it a try?
Actually, take a tip from "Prickly":
I would recommend for a Club Ski Male  trying race skis for the first time, to see about getting hold of a pair of Women's GS Race-Stock skis with a good base and a decent 88 Degree/ 0.5 Base bevel.  Not more acute than that.  You will probably believe you are starting a different sport, not just trying different skis.

Do I have to push them fast?

No.  If you look at the way the racers train, you'll see them on the blue slopes on the solid icy summer glaciers at slow speed sometimes: working on balance and precision.  It's quite easy to fall inside if you are going slowly.  Skiing slowly calls for careful skill.  Then, Try tick-tac drills, javelin turns, standing on the top edge - all the good training drills.

Also: MX579Turbo makes some excellent points.

The Rev range in a F1 gearbox?: I think the engine revs to max rpm (18,000 rpm in 2009) in every gear.  I saw this guy who taped the F1 car engine sound, and plotted the revs for each change. Here it is:-
http://img103.imageshack.us/i/mal2006gfr168pv.jpg/
Here's a post on how he did it.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2218&


That's more than $0.02!
I hope that has given you something to think about.
Happy Skiing!
Davey

Davey,

Welcome to Epic.

+1  Obviously you have too much time on your hands.

I really liked your take on Angulation in your wiki post. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

MR

 Epic post by Davey.

You have to check with your shops near you. Many shops offer race nights, and a few do stock inline race, fis ski, and if your lucky world cup skis. I know some shops in New jersey that do.