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scraper questions

#1
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ok, some more questions, scrapers, why plastic instead of alum? alum too rough on the bases? and do you use the scraper sharpener on both plastic and alum or just one or the other? sorry, im new to all this and just trying to learn so i can purchase some stuff and get started
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#2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkers View Post

ok, some more questions, scrapers, why plastic instead of alum? alum too rough on the bases? and do you use the scraper sharpener on both plastic and alum or just one or the other? sorry, im new to all this and just trying to learn so i can purchase some stuff and get started

Plastic scraper for scraping wax.     When scraping wax you want the least damage possible to bases.

Steel scraper for scraping plastic.    Aluminum = too soft.


Depends on the specific sharpener.    Some are steel-only, some are plastic-only.

frex, this one is plastic-only:




 anticooler than you

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#3
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^ hate that thing.  i guess if I wanted a concave scraper with a big burr it might be handy. :D
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#4
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what other scraper sharpeners are out there for me to choose from, and, is that what they call them or do they have a diff. name? you want the scraper edge 90 degrees correct?  thanks
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#5
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I use this one from Dr. D and it works well for me.
t_rc_3675.jpg
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#6
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You can use a dedicated scraper sharpener like those above or:



A large coarse or panzer flat file on a bench or in a bench vise.

Multi-tools or 90° file guides with a panzer or coarse file:



This is shown in our Efficient Hot Waxing video.
Best Regards, Terry Be sure to check out our growing ACTIVITY SUPPORT products for your next outing.
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#7
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I worked at a furniture refinishing shop many, many years ago.  The file in the vise is how we sharpened metal scraper then and I sharpen the plastic ones now.  Works great.  One or two passes on the top and bottome edge and a pass on the sides.  The sharper it is, the less effort to scrape and the less likely you will bend the scraper which has a tendency to scrape away more material on the center of the bow.

"The measure of time to your next goal is the measure of your discipline."

-Chinese Fortune Cookie from the Lilac Blossom
 

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#8
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thanks again guys
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#9
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I have used all the options shown above for sharpening scrapers. ( I had almost given up and just come to the conclusion the only good scraper is a new scraper!!! Then I came across this product!



http://www.fktools-us.com/ProductDetail.asp?PartNumbNew=3376


I am currently using the FK/SKS sharpenenr shown. Works the best of any I have tried. (Still have the TOKO and SWIX shown above, they are in a drawer collecting dust!)

the advantage of the FK is that the blade is adjustable and the back-guide is long enough and high enough to allow you to keep your scraper square to the blade as you pass itthe scraper over the blade.

The TOKO is terrible as mentioned and the Swix just is not long enough (and I have the large size) to stabilze the scraper as you sharpen it! Keep in mind you still have to deburr your scraper after sharpening to get it really working well.

it also has mounting holes in the base to screw it in place on a bench.
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#10
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 In all those years as serviceman for our National team I learned to sharpen scrapper with pretty much anything :) I still use Swix milled file but mine is about 30cm long. And based on Swix web, they don't have this one in their product list anymore (the one on above link is only 4.5cm long, which is way too short).
If this is not an option, pretty good option is sandpaper (somewhere around P100) on flat surface. It sharpens scrapers just as good as previously mentioned file. Worse option, especially without lot of experience, is steel scraper. You can sharpen plastic ones this way too, but without experience, you have lot of chances to make it concave and not straight.
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#11
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I agree with Primoz. Sandpaper, taped to a flat surface. Some like it on a wall, some on a bench. I just cut a new 1" thick piece of plexiglass, about 3" bigger that a sheet of sandpaper, to mount for the purpose. Learned this trick from a WC tech. I have pretty much used every other tool available. I have a Holmenkol sharpener that looks a lot like A'man's, and it's good.
Like the results with sandpaper the best.
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#12
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With all due respect Muleski, I also use a very fine grit sandpaper like you explain after the sharpener, but the problem is it is almost impossible to keep the scraper at 90 degrees to the sandpaper. if it is not perfectly aligned you get a minutely angled edge.

Maybe we need a 3 or 4 degree side edge on those scrapers!!!!
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#13
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I slide a sheet of drywall sanding screen under the fence on my table saw.  Then I hold the perspex scraper on it's edge against the fence & slide it back & forth.

Easy, cheap, good edge & it's square.
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#14
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Atomicman there's no need to have it at perfect 90 degrees. All you need is, that it's perfectly flat, and when you have sandpaper on flat table, it will be flat. But it doesn't matter if it's 90 degrees or not. I actually do it on purpose that it's not, so bottom side if scraper is more like V shape. You are using top edges of V anyway, not bottom one, since scrapper always comes to ski under some angle and not on 90 degrees. I hope this makes sense :)
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#15
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I learned the taped sandpaper from a guy who tech'd a two time overall WC winner. I assume that he doesn't care that it's a perfect 90 degrees, and it's seemed OK for me. It's really easy, and I've noticed that I tend to quickly keep the scraper sharp/clean . To me the big deal, as Primoz says, is that the scrapers are flat. I thought it was worth a try, and I'm hooked.  But clearly not an exact 90 degrees, unless I'm better with my eye and hand than I assume!
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#16
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Wax scraper sharpening is not complicated like building pianos where precision matters. It's more about a straight, sharp corner on a piece of plastic that a lot of tools and techniques can provide. Keep it simple and don't over think this like many things for DIY tuners and waxing. On the sand paper front, a belt sander also works great as does a jointer. Lot of this is basic carpentry 101 and with all due respect, whether a WC tech does it or not is also irrelevant.

Edited by Alpinord - 11/15/09 at 8:38am
Best Regards, Terry Be sure to check out our growing ACTIVITY SUPPORT products for your next outing.
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#17
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I set my scraper's base to 1 and side to 3.  No wait; it's base to .5 and side to 2 or was that base to 2 and side to 5.

I think that as long as it has a clean sharp edge, it will do a very nice job with minimal effort.  If having an exact edge angle mattered, there would need to be a fixture to hold it in so you always scraped it at the correct angle.  If you are free handing the scraper, there is no consistency.  This is why so many people get gadgets (fixtures) to sharpen knifes to a specific angle.  Most people can't tell the difference between a 20 deg angle and a 25 deg angle (both used in knife sharpening).

You're removing wax without causing damage to the base.  Nothing more.  Clean, flat, sharp.

Going back to the thread about why the east coast sucks.


Btw.  My file method for sharpening is the same method I used 30 years ago at a furniture refinishing shop to scrape the paint off a Baby Grand Piano.  Came out beautiful.  Cherry Ribbon Mahogany.  Just wanted to tie back to what Terry said about pianos.

"The measure of time to your next goal is the measure of your discipline."

-Chinese Fortune Cookie from the Lilac Blossom
 

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#18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

Wax scraper sharpening is not complicated like building pianos where precision matters. It's more about a straight, sharp corner on a piece of plastic that a lot of tools and techniques can provide. Keep it simple and don't over think this like many things for DIY tuners and waxing. On the sand paper front, a belt sander also works great as does a jointer. Lot of this is basic carpentry 101 and with all due respect, whether a WC tech does it or not is also irrelevant.
 

I was just pointing out that I learned how to do the "sandpaper thing" from somebody who has done this for a living, at the highest level, for a long time. And while he could just throw out scrapers as soon as they are dull, as many techs do, he chooses not to and uses sandpaper as a fast and easy way to keep them in service. We're all intitled to express our opinions. I do think it's relevant, or I would not have mentioned it.



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#19
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OK, Ok, I agree i mistated the 90 degree thing. But it seems like if you don't have the thing fairly flat your not goin' get a very clean sharp edge.  I like Taosmath's technique except i have no table saw. but I could certainly rig something up!
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#20
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"I like Taosmath's technique except i have no table saw."

Sounds like a good reason - "Honey.  Not having a table saw is holding my skiing back.  All the other guys have one."

Sounds reasonable to me

I have also used my table saw top when I need a perfectly flat area; like for checking boot sole flatness and angle of the boot cant or forward lean.


"The measure of time to your next goal is the measure of your discipline."

-Chinese Fortune Cookie from the Lilac Blossom
 

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#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski View Post

I was just pointing out that I learned how to do the "sandpaper thing" from somebody who has done this for a living, at the highest level, for a long time. And while he could just throw out scrapers as soon as they are dull, as many techs do, he chooses not to and uses sandpaper as a fast and easy way to keep them in service. We're all intitled to express our opinions. I do think it's relevant, or I would not have mentioned it.
Sorry Muleski. Bad choice of words. Sometimes though, when some post citing WC tech preferences comes off as a self-validation rather than being a pertinent fact. And, FWIW, I know plenty of high level craftsman that would roll their eyes at any inference that WC techs were the 'discoverers' of how to keep a tool sharp and true. Whatever.

My favorite WC tech tip is when in a hurry and a base tool was forgotten, a hotel key has been used to set the base bevel.

And hey this is a 'World Cup' scraper sharpener, BTW:

scraper_sharpener_th.jpg

....and all of us are dumb asses and will burn in hell if we do not purchase one of these to keep or plastic scrapers sharp:
scraper_planer.jpg

A-man, a woodworkers bench vise works well for holding a file, sandpaper or drywall screen an a wood block and helping you maintain a 90° like a table saw fence. Router tables work well, too.



Best Regards, Terry Be sure to check out our growing ACTIVITY SUPPORT products for your next outing.
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#22
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I can't believe I forgot this.  One of my ski buddies uses a table saw at the beginning of the year to set the edge on several scrapers.  Sandwiches them between a couple pieces of scrap wood.  Trims as little as possible on each side.

"The measure of time to your next goal is the measure of your discipline."

-Chinese Fortune Cookie from the Lilac Blossom
 

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#23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

"I like Taosmath's technique except i have no table saw."

Sounds like a good reason - "Honey.  Not having a table saw is holding my skiing back.  All the other guys have one."


I've used all that up with Motorcycle "Farkles"! 


 
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#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski View Post

And while he could just throw out scrapers as soon as they are dull, as many techs do.
 

To be honest, I never saw anyone do this. Simply because you don't have 10.000 of them on stock :) While someone can get away with occasional sharpening when they have pair or two of skis to do, there's no such things when you have 30+ pairs to do... in single evening. It sure depends on scrapper (some are soft, some are hard, and some are extra soft (read: Holmenkol)) but in general scraper is good for pair or two at max. At least if you want to have easy job. So when I was still in WC, everyone, including tech from wax companies (who were actually selling us those things) as also tech from richest teams, were sharpening them.
But it could be, that times changed. Seeing those fancy devices in one of posts above, just confirms this :)
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#25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post




To be honest, I never saw anyone do this. Simply because you don't have 10.000 of them on stock :) While someone can get away with occasional sharpening when they have pair or two of skis to do, there's no such things when you have 30+ pairs to do... in single evening. It sure depends on scrapper (some are soft, some are hard, and some are extra soft (read: Holmenkol)) but in general scraper is good for pair or two at max. At least if you want to have easy job. So when I was still in WC, everyone, including tech from wax companies (who were actually selling us those things) as also tech from richest teams, were sharpening them.
But it could be, that times changed. Seeing those fancy devices in one of posts above, just confirms this :)
 

Well, at US Nationals, Aspen and BC WC's, my kids came back with probably a dozen scrapers that looked liked they been used once, twice. My question was "W here'd these come from?" response was "The trash...."X" had about 6 dozen in one of his boxes, and told me I could have them as he used them."  So I guess times may have changed a bit. Maybe there was some showmanship going on too? Don't know. Swix and Holmenkoll scrapers. Team, not factory, techs, by the way. The guy who showed me the sandpaper deal sure sharpens them, and seems to stretch his stuff. And he was teching for a very, very big name at the time. I thought tossing the scrapers was pretty wasteful, but one of those techs told me that he would sharpen a couple of times, and pitch them, as they were "$3 scrapers" and he wanted them flat.  Guess we all see different things........

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#26
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Ok, I'll throw out some heresy---

Metal scrapers don't have to damage your skis, and plexi scrapers certainly can.

The first thing they teach us in geology is Mohs Hardness scale.  Any harder mineral can scratch a softer one.  Plexiglas plastic is much harder than ptex, and if you take a good sharp one and bear down you can remove your carefully stone ground structure, no problem.

I often scrape with a nice thin metal scraper which I have smoothed and dulled a bit with 600 grit sandpaper.  It takes the wax right off with very little pressure and done right, will do less damage to the base structure than a dull or rough plastic one.  If I'm doing a pile of recreational skis fast, it is what I use.
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#27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski View Post

I learned the taped sandpaper from a guy who tech'd a two time overall WC winner. I assume that he doesn't care that it's a perfect 90 degrees, and it's seemed OK for me. It's really easy, and I've noticed that I tend to quickly keep the scraper sharp/clean . To me the big deal, as Primoz says, is that the scrapers are flat. I thought it was worth a try, and I'm hooked.  But clearly not an exact 90 degrees, unless I'm better with my eye and hand than I assume!

 I thought the advantage of 90 degrees was that you got 4 edges you could use for scraping( top & bottom, front & back) - if the edge is not orthogonal to the scraper face you can certainly use the acute edge but using the obtuse edge might be more difficult (unless it's only a little over 90 I suppose).

As for table saw fence, sure - clamp a 2x4 on edge on any flat surface - does that help with the 'no table saw' problem or is it a better left unsaid ?

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#28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaosMath View Post
you can certainly use the acute edge but using the obtuse edge might be more difficult (unless it's only a little over 90 I suppose).

I guess noone is sharpening scrapers when they are aligned to 10 degrees ;) And if it's 5 or 10 degrees off perfect 90 degrees angle, you won't really notice it ;)
Sometimes I have feeling you guys make problems out things, that really don't matter. People who do more skis in a day, then most of people here will do in their life, don't have problems with angles less then perfect 90 degrees, yet we are almost on second page discussing how to sharpen scrappers, and what angle is right one for something as stupid as plastic scraper is
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#29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

Metal scrapers don't have to damage your skis, and plexi scrapers certainly can.

I often scrape with a nice thin metal scraper which I have smoothed and dulled a bit with 600 grit sandpaper.
Metal scraper should stay away from your skis. It does similar things to base as stone grinding does... just that it's much less accurate and it doesn't make structure ;) So unless you have to fix some bigger scratches, and you don't have stone grinding as option, stay away of p-tex with metal scraper. Back in my days of WC serviceman, metal scraper was mainly used as sharpener for plastic scraper (not good practice anyway :), but very rarely for doing skis.
I completely trust theory about harder mineral scratching softer one. But you have to consider, that harder material can scratch softer one more, then a bit softer one ;) And metal scraper is much much harder then plastic one ;)

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#30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski View Post
......... I thought tossing the scrapers was pretty wasteful, but one of those techs told me that he would sharpen a couple of times, and pitch them, as they were "$3 scrapers" and he wanted them flat.  Guess we all see different things........
Yeah, talk about blatant waste. It really only takes a little bit of time to flatten an edge. Periodically running them through a table saw, router table, jointer, belt sander, planer, etc is pretty fast and easy. You should get years out of a scraper before sending it to a landfill....... I used to mount my belt sander to the bench for quick and flat sharpening, but it was always in the way. Simply using a flat file or panzer and guide, or sand paper is fast and easy......and with a roto-brush, how absolutely, perfectly flat does it really matter for non-racers?

Edit: forgot to include SVST's answer to precision wax scraper sharpening:


Wss.jpg
Quote:

This carbide blade wax scraper sharpener will put a razor sharp edge back on either stell or plastic scrapers.  It will accommodate up to 1/4 inch thick scrapers.  Precision machined from aluminum and hard anodized.  Designed to be held in ski vise or mounted on the side of your work bench.



Edited by Alpinord - 11/16/09 at 8:43am
Best Regards, Terry Be sure to check out our growing ACTIVITY SUPPORT products for your next outing.
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