What are the Differences in Current Plug Boots?

#1

Rating: 1

11/4/09 at 10:06am

Tog
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Hi guys, looking for some info on the current crop of plug boots that are out there and the differences from what I have now, which is a Lange RL 11 from probably '04 with my 2nd or third Nordica Dobie lace up liner. (edit: I think it's RL11, maybe it's RL1, I don't have them here though.) Boot is 313mm, street shoe size 10 1/2, low instep, prob c/d width, relatively skinny calf.

Maybe Bud will remember my boots. (I know he'll remember my landing on his skis at Big Sky!)

Couple specific questions: I consider the RL 11 to be a bit bloated for my foot. Specifically in the instep area, I think there is too much room there. Also in the calf area.
- Is the current Lange plug boot much different than RL 11 in the instep and calf area?
- Is the Atomic the exact same boot save the color?
- How do these compare in shape to the Dobermann?

- Opinions on the new footboard in the Dobermann? I see that it's aluminum and bolts to the shell - two screws on the side of the heel and two in toes.

Edited by Tog - 11/4/09 at 10:17am

#2

Rating: 0

11/4/09 at 8:50pm

starthaus
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Location: Truckee, CA
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lange has rl11 which is the same boot that you are in. they also have the rl12. the difference in last between those 2 boots is dramatic. rl12 has lower instep, narrower heel and ankle, roomier toe box, and very different function of lower clog height/angle, and cuff rivet positioning. the rl12 has a cork/oil mix lace up liner very similar to the dobe wc liner.

with atomic, it depends on which boot. the rt ti is basically unchanged from previous years boots, however there is also the rt sti which is even lower volume and narrower in the heel/ankle than the ti.

with the rl12, there are fewer differences between these boots, the atomic shares some similarities as well with the dobe.

in skiing the new edt nordicas, the aluminum boot board has very positive transfer of energy to the ski. better than the older dobes. the instep is a bit lower and the ramp angle out of the box has been reduced in the edt.

do not take my word on any of the fit differences, go into a good race shop that stocks these boots and try them on for your self.

other honorable mentions in this group the Head Raptor 150 rd, tecnica diablo race H17 alto, and the salomon lab x3.

jim

#3

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 2:20pm

bud heishman
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"DUCK!"

"Givin' you the Edge" www.snowind.com Synergy coaching/alignment

#4

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 11:49pm

CEM
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Location: Bicester UK
Post Count: 1,356

as in if it looks like a, sounds like a and walks like a, then it probably is a

ski boot fitting in the UK www.solutions4feet.com

#5

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 9:42am

Tog
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No, Bud's talking about physically ducking.
He's inaccurate though, since he needed to leanback and stop forward motion, not duck

.

I believe I did land on his shovels, but by that point I had begun the process of drilling my head into deep snow.

I dug up these awesome photos of the RL 12 posted by Cantman
From the thread "New Lange Plug" 3/20/08 in Ask the Bootfitters.
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/68555/new-lange-plug

There seems to be a significant difference where the foot is located relative to the sole of the boot.. The old RL11 looks like the foot was centered on the sole and the new RL12 looks like the big toe side of foot is much closer to center of sole. Or perhaps those slices of the boot are not taken at the same section?

Any thoughts on how the Dobie Plug compares to this RL 12 shape?

cantman

Here's the Lange RL11 on left and the NEW RL12 (97mm) on the right. Note instep height difference (disregard the time stamp)

RL11 on left, RL12 (97mm) on right. Note toe box height difference (disregard the time stamp)

Lange RL12 (97mm)on left, RL11 on right. Note slight height difference and heel/achilles contour.

Lange RL12 (97mm) on left, RL11 on right. Note difference between shin contour (much more upright on RL12)

As far as ramp angles, I'll get back to you soon. I measured them @ the show and I have to check my notes.

Edited by Tog - 11/6/09 at 9:54am

#6

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 1:17pm

Sandy Webster
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hi

I think the biggest difference you should be seeing, and all in the effort to creat a better Slalom boot, the RL12 was created with a great deal more positive later angle in the throat of the lower. As evidensed by your first photo. this also created a lot of issues with that boot during set-up of long time Lange athletes who were used to a much more neutral stance and even with the cuff straightened out their alignment was often way off. there is so much angle that cuff alignment changes were barely noticable. all other values as noted in the above by TOG. there is similar outlasting or external rotation but the Dobie has a vertical throat and not almost 2 degrees to the outside. the boot has great initiation but lacks power at the bottom of the turn. the Lange/Rossi move back to the very successful R2006 is more than enough evidence of this.

#7

Rating: 0

11/8/09 at 8:04pm

Tog
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Thanks for the response Sandy, I took your post and added questions in bold.

Originally Posted by Sandy Webster

hi

I think the biggest difference you should be seeing, and all in the effort to creat a better Slalom boot, the RL12 was created with a great deal more positive later angle in the throat of the lower. As evidensed by your first photo.
Not sure what "positive later angle" means. you mean in that first photo, the RL12 on the right has the top of the lower shell, the throat?, tilted out towards the right in the photo? Which if that is the left boot would be towards the outside?

this also created a lot of issues with that boot during set-up of long time Lange athletes who were used to a much more neutral stance and even with the cuff straightened out their alignment was often way off. there is so much angle that cuff alignment changes were barely noticable. all other values as noted in the above by TOG.
Did this have a big effect on sole canting values?

there is similar outlasting or external rotation but the Dobie has a vertical throat and not almost 2 degrees to the outside.
What does "outlasting or external rotation mean"? Is this turning the foot outward?

the boot has great initiation but lacks power at the bottom of the turn. the Lange/Rossi move back to the very successful R2006 is more than enough evidence of this.
I take it you're refering to the RL12? So what's the R2006?

#8

Rating: 0

11/9/09 at 7:14am

Sandy Webster
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hi TOG

here goes:

by positive I mean to the outside. the boot is molded with more angle in the lower. it is more agressive. your canting setup may be different than previous models as the angels as delivered have changed.

the second part- I was still refering to the lateral angle of the throat of the boot which is the part of the lower shell or clog to which the upper cuff attaches. simpley put the Dobi is a little straighter up laterally than the RL12 out of the box. bott boots have more of the foot towards the outside of the centre line of the ski. less contact or boot-out at high edge angles. the real point is the basic boot charactoristics have changed and muct be addressed in the RL12 differently so a little thinking is required from long time Lange fans.

the RL2006 - is the currently and readily available WC series plug boots from both Lange and Rossi. good solid product with much success in the last couple of years for both men and women.

hope this helps

#9

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11/9/09 at 11:35am

Tog
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Ok, I get what you're talking about.
As far as the R2006, does that boot have the RL12 lower shell with a different upper cuff?
Here's a description from RaceStockSports though I've seen most of it other places, except for calling the shell an RL12.

You can see the near vertical sicewall of the RL12 in the first photo below.
Descriptions of the R2006 say 92mm last, and the RL12 is 97mm?

So, is the R2006 an RL12 lower with a different upper cuff or is the 2006 last also narrower and with less toe out positioning of the foot?

Quote:

The R2006 shell is a quicker and more powerful boot for tech events. The flex range of the R2006 is much shorter; meaning it is quicker to engage. This puts more energy into the ski and allows the skier to pressure the front of the ski with more aggression.
The design of the lower shell includes a near vertical medial wall which allows the foot to sit closer to the inside edge. The liner is a very thin, firm race liner with full laces. Lange's classic "Flo" material is in the ankle pocket along with a Neoprene toe box and removable rear spoiler.

Color: Crazy Blue

Last: 92mm

Shell: RL 12
From: http://www.racestocksports.com/category_s/12.htm

Originally Posted by Tog

Here's the Lange RL11 on left and the NEW RL12 (97mm) on the right. Note instep height difference (disregard the time stamp)

#10

Rating: 0

11/9/09 at 2:21pm

Sandy Webster
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Location: Calgary
Post Count: 56

TOG

the RL12 and R2006 are NOT the same boot. first the shark nose vs. the round . You may find some similarities like the more vertical inside wall, but the throat and cuff are entirely different, as well as hinge points. what is confusing is trying to make sense of real Race boots and consumer race boots that look the same on the outside but may have different plugs or inner molds and hence the same look in both 92 and 97mm. There are 3 differemt basic outward appearances with various different plugs for different volumes and applications. if you are really trying to chose the best boot for you, it sounds like you really need to hook up with a bootfitter/dealer with a great inventory and try boots on to see whats up.

#11

Rating: 0

11/9/09 at 9:24pm

Tog
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Thanks for the replys Sandy. Ok, I get the R2006 is quite different. (Got section photos?

)

I ask here because it's difficult to get the info on plug boots outside the polyethelyne curtain. I've got some access, but not a lot of people do. It's highly unusual to have section photographs of boots, which is why I reposted them. If the industry only made some of that available on boots, fitters would have a lot less explaining and hair pulling to do to get their fit point across.

Hey, since today's the anniversary of the Berlin Wall falling maybe it's a good time to get this info.

I'll sum up the info I know:
Feel free to correct any thing that's out of place.

Lange R2006:
92mm last. more vertical throat to lower cuff than RL12 both in fore/aft and medial/lateral direction. Lace up liner with flo in heel. 3 flexes available ZA ,ZB ,ZC - I think they correspond to roughly 120, 130, 150 flexes. I suppose if you find someone willing you could mix upper and lower flexes.

Rossi RL12
92mm last
Leather lace up liner.
Here's a video of the Rossi. Not much info though.
http://www.invodo.com/WC-RL12-Boot/p/Z1SS1878

Nordica Dobermann
95mm Last
New lace up liner that's nicer than the last one. Not sure if it's flo pack in ankle.
Has an extruded aluminum boot board that is bolted to the shell with 2 screws in the back, 2 in front. Those come in from the sides. Holds the whole puppy together. No more floppy bootboards!
That is called "Efficient Dynamic Technology" - EDT tm

Head Raptor RD
95mm last
Flex: Supposedly available in 120 red shell?, 130 grey?, 150 white shell?
"Double canting" - I guess you can adjust both sides of the upper cuff to...twist it somewhat?
You can take out the screws in the rear cuff to adjust the flex of the shell.
There's a "lacing option" according to Ski Racing Mag.

Link of Mojoman's review ( "with photos! ")
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/87672/raptor-rs-120-review-with-photos

Ok, here's a video on the Raptor RD
(It's a series of short clips, several are on the Raptor. If you keep letting it go it explains other boots too. There's also a video lower on the page of a Raptor 125 RS - 98mm last)
http://www.invodo.com/Raptor-130-RD-Mens-Ski-Boots/p/Z1SS1191

Atomic RT TI (Race Tech Team Issue)
95mm last
Flexes: 150, 130, and 100 available.
Twin "micro Excenter" cuff adjustment. - Like the Head?
Liner has hard foam on medial side and softer foam on lateral side.

Atomic RT STI R
93mm last
150 flex
built in 5mm lifter
same liner?

Tecnica Diablo Race R
95mm last
Four different flexes available

#12

Rating: 0

11/10/09 at 7:57am

Tog
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Post Count: 2,570

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandy Webster

(bold added)
the RL12 and R2006 are NOT the same boot. first the shark nose vs. the round . You may find some similarities like the more vertical inside wall, but the throat and cuff are entirely different, as well as hinge points. what is confusing is trying to make sense of real Race boots and consumer race boots that look the same on the outside but may have different plugs or inner molds and hence the same look in both 92 and 97mm.

There are 3 differemt basic outward appearances with various different plugs for different volumes and applications. if you are really trying to chose the best boot for you, it sounds like you really need to hook up with a bootfitter/dealer with a great inventory and try boots on to see whats up.

Look at this description of what I guess is the R2006 Lange, it's a UK site.
Clearly this is the shark nose toe yet the last is RL12.
(edit: well! I see it's Colin Martin's site who's on the Ask a bootfitter list)

- So, does saying RL12 last just mean the foot shape is the same as the RL12?
- Also, just because two brands have a say 95mm last, doesn't mean it's the same foot shape right?
- Isn't the dimension of the last just a measurement around the foot at a certain point?

Quote: From: http://www.solutions4feet.com/catalogue_item.php?catID=1389&prodID=6865

Lange World Cup 160 ZB-ZB

This is the ultimate race boot straight from the Lange race department the world cup 160 boot features shark nose technology and is aimed at the top level of racer, the RL12 last is the narrowest most precise fit on the market, we have choosen to stock this boot in the ZB flex [approx 130/140] to make it usable by a variety of racers, features include:

RL12 92mm last

ZB/ZB flex (approx 130/140)

4 micro adjustable alloy buckles

40mm power strap

FIS aproved sole thickness

Asymetric cuff alignment

World cup liner + vercro power spoiler

race section of solutions4feet.com:
http://www.solutions4feet.com/pwpcontrol.php?pwpID=43

#13

Rating: 0

11/11/09 at 8:20am

Sandy Webster
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Post Count: 56

TOG

you really need a good fitter and a good selection of boots to try! it,s not all about the numbers out of the box!

good luck!

#14

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11/11/09 at 1:13pm

CEM
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Location: Bicester UK
Post Count: 1,356

Tog,

nice link to my site

, that is definately the RL12 but the R2006 is coming back for next season....a godsend as the RL12 has not been the greatest boot for us

ski boot fitting in the UK www.solutions4feet.com

#15

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11/12/09 at 9:09am

Tog
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Post Count: 2,570

Yes, I need a bootfitter. Here's the problem, there are an extremely small number of bootfitters with the knowledge of these boots. I may have access, but a lot of people simply don't have access to them, or it will require a long trip, so at least having some information before they go is helpful.
In terms of shops, sometimes the answer you get for which plug boot is "what color do you want?" -as in they're all the same, they just look different. Yes, you can go to a different shop, but when there's not a lot of shops around, it's not easy.

Meanwhile in the junior racing world, things are generally still done by what someone else has, regardless of if it works for them or not. Coaches may or may not deal with it. I realize that may be shocking, but this is the way it is in a lot of places until you reach a very high level or get lucky enough to have a coach who at least understands the importance of it and can get someone else to look at it. Otherwise, you get factory reps doing 1/2 hour boot fits and that's what they go with.
In some ways, things haven't changed all that much from 1992 when Witherell wrote his book, or even in '72 when he wrote the first one. At least now there's the internet where information can at least be spread by people who know.

Ok, here's another couple of questions:

-What is the current boot Lange is using for high level racing?
(suggested by sywsyw)

-Any information on Head Raptor RD?

Meanwhile, we're making progress in comparisons now.
Here's a post from sywsyw:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sywsyw

Tog,

I will try to clear up some of your confusion regarding plug boots. The reason is simple. I was once like you, eager to learn many things about plug and semi-plug boots. At a point i was almost obsessed with boots. But that was years ago.

If you have an '04 boot i believe it is an RL1, the "ancient" Lange design.

I believe that the predecessor to the current plug was built in 2005. It was called the RL11. The boot had a high instep. I had to downsize aggressively for a good fit over the instep.
The current consumer plug boot was built two (or three) years ago and was called the RL12. The boot featured a shark nose. I tried on both boots. The RL12 has a lower instep which is, IMO, much better for you than the RL11. It does not have a lot of forward lean.
Other differences from the RL11 are the lateral cant built into the mold, the zeppa which is not neutral and the liner which is now a lace-up version. There may be other differences but i do not recall them now. Those are the most important IMO.

At this point, you do not know if the RL12 is the best boot for you. IMO, it will fit your instep better but this does not mean that it will ski better. You have to consider some factors before you decide to go with brand X.

Last but not least, do not put much faith in some websites.

If you want info on plug and semi-plug boots, you should check out Jeff Bergeron's threads. He is a boot fitter who stopped posting when the new forum on boot fitting has opened. You will find info on the RL11 and other plug boots as well.

Links: 06 expert boot advice by Jeff Bergeron and the 07 thread There are even older threads but you should look for them yourself. There is a lot of info and you can learn many things about boots.

I tried on and skied a few plug boots and this is what i can tell you about them if you want a comparison.
Note: I have a fairly narrow heel, medium forefoot, mid to low instep and skinny lower leg. I weigh 160 lbs.

Atomic RT Ti 130: 95 mm last in 26 mondo, narrow heel, medium forefoot, mid to low instep, lateral cant built into the mold, lots of forwward lean. 130 flex too stiff for me w/o cutting the lower.

Atomic RT Sti 130: 92 mm last in 26 mondo, narrow heel, narrower than the Ti mid and fore foot, possibly narrwer in the heel too, but i did not measure. The difference was obvious mid and fore foot. Lower instep, lateral cant built into the shell,lots of forward lean, 130 flex was stiffer than the 130 Ti flex. The boot is a bomb and probably best left to racers.

Lange WC 150 aka. RL 11: 95 mm last (size 26), narrow heel, medium forefoot, high instep, no lateral cant built into the mold, the FL was less aggressive than the Atomics. 150 flex was a little stiff for me but with cutting it would have worked out well.

Lange WC 160 aka RL12: 92 mm last (size 26), narrow heel, medium forefoot, lower instep than the RL11, lateral cant built into the shell, less aggressive in FL than the Atomics and similar or even slightly more upright than the RL11. 160 flex required softening.

Nordica Dobermann Aggressor WC 130: 95 mm last (size 26), narrow heel, medium forefoot, medium instep, lateral cant built into the shell, toes-out stance, FL slightly less aggressive than the Atomics, more than the Langes. 130 flex is not too stiff for me but i have not skied the boot yet.

Nordica Dobermann WC 150 EDT: 95 mm last (size 26), narrow heel, medium forefoot, medium instep,lateral cant built into the shell, Fl was similar to the Aggressor, no aggressor stance, 150 flex manageable in store temps, would require softening on the hill. Nice lace-up liner.

Salomon X3 LAB Soft:? mm last (size 26) (never saw the info from Salomon), narrow-ish heel, medium forefoot, medium instep, more upright stance than the Atomics and Nordicas. No lateral cant built into the mold. The flex was manageable in store. The stance was uncomfortable for me with the rear spoiler in. I had to take it out.

Tecnica Diablo Race R H17 (150 flex): 95 mm last (size 26), narrow heel, medium to narrow forefoot, medium instep, aggressive forwad lean, no lateral cant built into the mold. 150 flex manageable at room temp, would require softening on the hill.

Edited by Tog - 11/12/09 at 9:23am

#16

Rating: 0

11/12/09 at 10:00am

Tog
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Post Count: 2,570

A little more on the R2006:

Quote:

Rl2006 is something which did not really hit the stores, it was used for the race boots for 1 season as alot of the racers did not like the feel of the RL12 for anything other than SL .... by all accounts it may be making a consumer level come back next season
-CEM

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/87615/lange-names-and-numbers#post_1145209

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