Interesting take on DIN

I wonder if anyone ever really uses DIN 30(or even 25), and if so, why and where? People mention speed kiers, but even traveling at 120+ mph, what are they doing to the skis that would put that kind of torque or force on their equipment to need that high a DIN? They are going in a straight line on a smooth surface and are not jumping or turning. They don't do a hockey stop to brake, they stand up and use drag to slow them down to a a sufficient speed where they can do a hockey stop with a measure of stability. If anything, I would want those skis coming off in a hurry if I bailed at 120MPH.  I would not want them attached as if I had nailed the boot to the ski.

For the utlra-high settings, all we have to go by are the World Cup racers and these guys are so out of the norm in terms of ability, strength, speed, and terrain, that we can't even use their DIN settings as a gauge. Even then, these guys aren't using DIN 30. So again, the question is, who the heck would need it and why?

Since the manufactuers, for obvious liability reasons, don't chart for DIN at these high settings, I think it's pretty much guesswork, and perhaps paranoia. The DIN standards division states that they do not reccomend anyone using a DIN greater than 10 for any non-competition, recreational uses. Even for amateur racers,  I think when it gets above 12, the question is,  why? You have pre-released while racing at 14 so you know you need 16 or 18?  It's not like Masters and NASTAR racers are skiing kitzbuhel.

 My simple question regarding DIN....

If it is DIN..why is there more then one DIN chart, shouldn't all the charts be standardized????

Good question. My guess is it is related to elesticity, travel etc. A binding with less travel and elesticity might need a tad higher DIN setting to keep the skier from popping out when they would stay in  using a binding with larger travel. The differences in DIN are usually slight.

I finally settled on a 13/14 for SL/GS after having several release issues at lower DINs (10/11). I have had a handful of controlled falls during training, and my skis come off cleanly at 13/14. I haven't pre-release issues at all at 13 or 14, so I feel that its a safe level to be on.

I've never really subscribed to the 'higher DIN for manliness' idea. My go-to skis have a 10 DIN max, and I'm fine with that. They're on a pair of freestyle skis, which I try to keep as light as possible. My recommended DIN is 8.5, and I have never had any prerelease problems at that setting, regardless of how hard I'm hitting bumps or jumps or rails. So why would I want a 12 or 14 max DIN binding if I'm never going to use it, and it's only going to increase the weight of my skis? My frontside carvers do have a max DIN of 14, but I don't mind the extra weight on those, extra weight just means vibration and chatter dampening. I already have enough knee problems as is, why would I risk exacerbating them by nullifying the safety features of my bindings?

Oh, I forgot... I did just get a pair of skis with an 18 max DIN... A vintage pair of K2 KV Comps with Marker M18's on them. Bought them at Salvation Army for $10. Still trying to figure out if they're going to go on the mountain on throwback day, or just get hung up somewhere.

What he said...basically, it's empirical research.  I stay as low as I can while avoiding prereleases.  I think it also varies with bindings, even though DIN is supposed to be a universal scale.  A few years back, when I was on Markers, I always felt like I had to wind them down one number more than anything else.  Rossi (Look) bindings, I felt exactly the opposite...like they were never going to come out unless I set them really light.  Atomic (1018) and Tyrolia (model that goes up to 17 DIN), I feel like I can set consistently.  For me, 11.5 for SL/GS, 12.5 for SG, 13.5 for DH works...

Dunno exactly where you're headed with this, there are two possibilities:

- (a) I'm a skier of Type X, my DIN should always be...

- (b) I've figured out that my DIN is (whatever), I should set it there regardless of the binding manufacturer.

Re (a), your mileage may vary, but I don't do it that way.  I'm trying to tread the fine line between a prerelease, which is a Bad Thing, and a non-release, also a Bad Thing.  There's different loads in different situations, so I use 11 for free skiing, 11.5 for SL/GS, 12.5 for Super G, 13.5 for DH.

Re (b), my experience tells me otherwise.  I can set Atomic 1018/Tyrolia right on what the situation calls for, Marker, I need to go one number higher, Look/Rossi, I need to go at least one number lower...

That's pretty depraved.  I race [Masters] DH, and was seriously thinking about some "easy" speed events...as in, up to maybe 100 mph...but this scenario just convinced me to take up bowling...

I have mostly experience with Tyrolia/Head/Fischer bindings (they are all same binding anyway). And when you look at for example Fischer Z11 and Z18 bindings, you will see huge difference. Z11 (my wife has those) is more or less plastic toy. It even feels like it would be loose when you hold it and move it around with your hand. It's certainly enough for someone who is 50kg and ski normally, but personally I would have problem skiing with that... if nothing else mental one, since I wouldn't trust that wobbly plastic with my weight and my speed.
On the other side I have Z18 (Fischer's racing service binding, which is same as Freeflex Pro 18 X if it's original Tyrolia), and it's completely different thing. It's almost 1kg heavier then Z11 (Freeflex Pro 11 if it's original Tyrolia binding), it's done so that it gives you much more trust, and it's mostly done from metal. Do I need DIN 18 setting? No. I ski with 11 or 12, which means Z13 binding would probably fit already. But I got Z18 together with skis, so I didn't bother to change them. And I got to 11-12 setting more or less with trial and error. I try to set my bindings as low as possible. So when I'm getting prereleases, it's too low, so I got 0.5 higher. And this way I repeat until I get no (or at least not too much and too easy ones) prereleases. Once you get your number, there's nothing much to experiment anymore, unless your skiing changes dramatically.

As far as Marker comp bindings goes, I somehow doubt they are using same numbers as everyone else. Everyone else have their racing service bindings with max DIN settings around 18 or 20. DIN on Marker bindings is just starting there. So it doesn't make much sense, but I can easily be wrong about this.



There's really no need for 3 people. Skier and his serviceman are enough for this ;) You set binding to lower possible setting, step into binding, and serviceman cranks up DIN setting to desired setting. That's how it's done with all racing bindings too, even if they go "only" to 20. ;)

Even 10-14 are very high DIN settings and unless someone is constantly pushing themselves and their skis to their limits, total overkill and an un-needed risk, IMO of course. Anything above 14 is best classified as extreme, unusual, and rediculous -- unless your first name is Bode or Herman.

Agree with that.

I'm 180, and set my toes at 7, heels at 10.  I have not any toe release in years, pre-release or crash release.  The heels release when I hit a drift wrong, but from the yank I get on the achilles, I think they should.

I've used 3-10 bindings and they seem to work just fine maxed out.   If macho guys sneer in the liftline at my wimp bindings that is just fine with me.

I had a chance to pick up some race stock DH skis for $50 in a ski swap, but chickened out when I noticed the bindings were something like 16-28. 

I did see Anja Pearson finish a world cup GS and remove her skis by easily twisting out at the toes.  Ok, she is strong, but it was obvious the setting was not macho high.

The guy with the Marker World Cup 30 bindings set on 22 had to go that high to justify them. Marker makes that model in a 16, 20 and 30 DIN, so he needed to be over 20, or it would look like he didn't really need that binding.

Bad skiing requires higher DINs to keep the ski on as forces applied to the ski through the body are usually higher and/or more erratic than with good skiing.

Racers use higher than 'prescribed' DIN settings because of the increased speed and because they are skiing in a rutted track which will apply forces that will want to take the ski off regardless of the quality of the skiing. While we don't race Kitz, we do attain 80mph on Lower Go Devil at Keystone and the Brown Streak on Racer's Edge, Tiehack. Higher than 12 is called for there.

I'm curious. Doesn't ski length come in to play here as well? A 180 is going to have more leverage than a 165, right? Would you use a DIN of 10 on a 165 and on a 180?

F*ck everything, we're doing five blades.

Longer skis more leverage. Shorter skis higher vibration,less damping?

I understand hardcore racers needing higher DIN's, I was just curious how they decide on a setting? For instance, why 17 instead of 15? Who makes the call and what is used as the criteria, as the manufactuers do not publish reccomendations that go beyond 10.

As far as the general skiing public like msyelf--those who do not race outside of NASTAR or engage in extreme activities, I believe that the thought that one needs a higher DIN is something that arrises from fear of something that has never happened -- the dreaded "pre-release" at 'high' speed. I ski at 7.5 and the only time my binding has popped off when I did not want it to was when I was doing something that jammed the ski -- like on a mogul top. I don't ski exceptionally fast(I guess I rarely, if ever, ski at 30mph or above) but I do ski rather aggressively and have never had any binding issues that were not user-induced.

I am simply a mere mortal and I don't gague my DIN by the standards of WC athletes or top amateur skiers and use the reccomended settings. These athletes are so far out of my world that any compairson is meanignless. As far as my own experience level, I am not worthy to touch Herman Maeir's ski bindings, let alone ski in them. This is just reality. DIN 22 bindings are for the athletes; 7.5 is enough for me  and the 4-11 bindings are sufficient. I value my hide more than my pride

The This is Spinal Tap excerpt (these go to 11) really is close to the mark.

I think that settings as defined by DIN are right for anyone that is just free skiing. Many masters racers set their bindings beyond what I feel is safe; in general I'd say anything over 14 for what we run is too much. I run a max of 13 in DH, 12 in SG and 10 and 11 in SL and GS respectively. There isn't a good rule for how racers come up with their settings. Some tighten up until they don't 'pre-release'. I haven't heard of anyone dialing down until they do 'pre-release' and then dial back up one. It is an interesting question that I will attempt to find an answer to as I go to the races this year.

I do think that skiers, racers included, use the DIN as a macho meter. Or claim they need a high setting to stay in their bindings when in fact they should work on their technique instead of reaching for a screwdriver.

MR

Just to throw something else into the mix...

How about patrollers?  How do you account for the fact that your bindings are also receiving pressure from up to 300 pounds of sled, patient, and gear, and that the effects of losing a ski may be far greater than a mere yardsale?

If you actually crash, you  want your skis to come off and if you're skiing fast enough, the skis will come off even at the higher DIN settings.  The problem arises when you fall while skiing at a slow or moderate rate  - in this situation there might be enough torque to spiral a tibia without there being enough torque to pop the binding.  That's the main danger with a too high DIN, and the higher you crank them the bigger this window becomes.

For a racer on the course who is always skiing fast, this isn't much of a problem as they're skiing outside this "danger window".  If you're not skiing fast all the time, then you're probably better off at lower settings. Reread the skier classification again with this in mind:

Determining your skier type is your responsibility. Your skier type, height, weight, age and ski boot sole length are used by the ski shop to determine the release/retention settings of your ski bindings. Be sure to provide accurate information; any error may increase your risk of injury. There are 3 classes of skier types - Type 1, Type II and Type III.
Type I	Type II	Type III
"Cautious skiing at lighter release/retention settings". * Ski conservatively. * Prefer slower speeds. * Prefer easy, moderate slopes. * Favor lower than average release/retention settings. This corresponds to an increased risk of inadvertent binding release in order to gain increased release ability in a fall. * Type I settings apply to entry level skiers uncertain of their classification.	"Moderate Skiing at average release/retention settings." * Ski moderately. * Prefer a variety of speeds. * Ski on varied terrain, including most difficult trails. * Are all skiers who do not meet all the descriptions of either Type I or III.	"Aggressive skiing at higher release/retention settings. " * Ski aggressively. * Normally at high speeds. * Prefer steeper and more challenging terrain. * Favor higher than average release/retention settings. This corresponds to decreased release ability in a fall. In order to gain a decreased risk inadvertent binding release.

Of course, if you're skiing the gnarly stuff where a prerelease would result in a ragdoll drop over the cliff it makes sense to err on the side of staying on - if you fall you're probably dead anyway so it doesn't matter if your skis stay on or not.  I can see cranking them up before dropping in to a scenario like this, and then cranking them back once back on the sane terrain.

 At my advanced age the shop tech said I should have my DIN @ 5-6. Well that might work but I signed a release to set them at 9,which works well for me.

 I broke my leg due to a binding not releasing.  It hurt.  Bad.  I don't want to do that again, so I keep my DIN as low as I can get away with.

I used to run SL at a mere 8. I double-ejected kicking out of the gate, fell through the wand, and slid down to the first gate on my chest. Most embarrassing fall ever. I'm running P18s set at 10.

Agreed.  Before I get into my Highly Scientific Method for How I Determined my Current Binding Settings for Each Discipline Rap, let me just briefly wax forensic about prereleases.  You would tend to think that a good Safety First rule might be to duly consult the DIN slash ability charts, see what your recommended DIN is, then go a number under that.  After all, if you prerelease, so what?  That's better than not releasing, right? 

Well, yes and no.  In a race course, at a minimum, a prerelease causes a DQ or DNF and a non-result.  However...a prerelease can also be a pain-inducing event.  The worst feeling, as a racer, I submit, is to be tooling along at about 65, go over a bump, and hear one ping, not two.  Now you have two choices, neither enviable: (1) Try to perfect your high-speed one-ski-only balance slash turning skills...very quickly, or (2) Put your now ski-less boot down, which is guaranteed to produce a body slam that will ensure your entry into the Hulk Hogan Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame.  Even if you're not in a race course, I submit, a prerelease can be a Bad Thing...as in, you're arcing turns off the Ridge at Taos, and your downhill ski suddenly decides to depart for parts unknown for no good reason. 

So whether you color between the lines and use the DIN chart, not a bad idea, or come up with a number based on your own independent research, I think what you'd like to do is find a number that prevents prereleases but lets you vacate the scene of the crime when that becomes advisable.  Fortunately, bindings are so much better than they used to be, with improved anti-shock and all, that we can all, as Masters Racer suggests, go with lower numbers. 

So...back to my personal DIN Seeking Science Fair Project.  I've been skiing on Atomic bindings, specifically 1018s for some years now, so let's say that was not a variable.  A couple of years ago, I'm cruising around on a pair of 183 GSs with the bindings set on 10.5, and...you guessed it, for no apparent reason, I hear a single ping and promptly beach it to avoid any further drama.  I dial up to 11, and I've never had a prerelease in SL or GS since.  Note that I scrupulously (1) transport my skis in a rocket box to protect the skis and bindings (2) Use cat tracks, as needed, so that my boot soles do not come to resemble the bottoms of my 5 year old hiking boots and (3) Wind all the tension off my bindings for the summer, or if I'm not going to ski on a pair of skis for a while (4) Never leave the heel cocked unless I'm about to step into the binding. 

Now, the other end of the scale.  A few years back, this is in a SG on Go Devil at Keystone, 204 Atomic SGs, 1018s set on 12, I'm winging along, coming into a steep bowl section, and I go into a big, right-footed airplane turn...a little too straight, doing about 60 and I hit a berm on the downside of the gate...ping,ping, and I'm out doing a face-first skeleton sled slide (without the skeleton sled...) into the fence.  Fortunately, it's steep and slick, so all I get is road rash on my nose, a slight tweak in one knee and the other shoulder...and a badly bent ski.  So you know there was a ton of force, but my bindings ejected me like Pop Tarts zooming out of a toaster, which is what was supposed to happen. 

So there it is.  I still don't know for sure that the numbers I'm using are the right ones, because they're clearly past whatever I'm supposed to be skiing on, at my age...but I still think my method is worth at least a B+ in this year's Rocky Mountain Masters Science Fair...

I agree with telerod15, but he has me beat.  I weight about 165 lbs and have my Look P-10s set at 5.  In four seasons of skiing on them I have never come out.  To be fair: I don't race or jump off cliffs.  Orthopedic physicians pay off their Vail condos with high DIN settings.  Why not find some old bear traps,they would be much cheaper. 

I had the same thing happen to me at DIN 14 on my Nordica SG's last year at Attitash while doing a freeski training run. One came off right after I landed a knoll, the other stayed on, even after the fall. 15 and 16 for speed events seems to suit me fine.

 If you are going fast enough to eject a DIN 14 setting upon impact, why not just crank it all the way up to 22 just to be absolutely sure the binding stays on? What's the point of arbitrarily picking 15 or 16? Why not crank it all the way?

ROTFL I prefer to try #1 and watch #2

Heel or toe release?

Did you land the knoll perfectly?

Was there a chance that the binding might have released for a reason?

Was the binding on perfectly straight when you stepped in?

Was the forward pressure correct?

It really pays to evaluate the reason for the so-called pre-release.

This isn't aimed directly at RTTT, but to all that choose to reach for a screwdriver to solve the problem of skis coming off unexpectedly. Not every 'pre-release' is an error in binding setting.

LMAO. . . . I just spit my tea across my desk. Thanks for the image.