You can easily tighten a turn but can you do the opposite?

Advanced skiers will answere "shure I can" . I dont know, both in theory and in practise I doubt it possible. Prove me wrong.

I doubt, at least the way you are thinking. Sure you can come down the hill with less turns. You just end turn closer to fall line, and leave some more "flat run" between turns, but when it comes to turn itself, I doubt you can make much wider turns then radius of ski allows. At least as long as you want to make nice "carve turn". It would work to some extent, if you would set ski a bit more flat on ground, but this is not really so easy thing to do, especially with higher speed and steeper terrains ;)

Yes, Im thinking specificly in the midst of a turn. Both when carving or skidding/steering/brushing.

What's the problem?  Trolling?
All you have to do is the same thing you do when you transition to another turn, only not so much.  In fact I "loosen" most of my turns, after the Apex.  Turns get tighter until the apex and then loosen until the next transition. Or in some cases, tighten until the park and ride phase and then loosen. 

Once you untip the skis enough you might not be carving a pure arc, but you will still be turning.

Here is a very basic drawing I made in 5min. You are suggesting that we loosen the turn. How do we do it using the diagram above? The reason you can easier loosen the turn after apex is that gravety and the centrifugal force pull in the same direction downhill and that causes you to untip. But in the diagram above that mimics apex gravity and the centerifugal force does not pull in the same direction downhill. And above apex they pull in different directions one uphill and one downhill. So "loosening the turn" would mean that we somehow untip right? How do we do that in the middle turning? Before and at apex?

I'm not gonna try to prove you wrong, but I will say that whatever you are doing you should be able to undo. We can always reverse our movements to varying degrees, such as reduce the pressure by flexing the outside leg, and/or reduce our edge angle by tipping the feet less. If you find this impossible to do I would suggest that you examine closely the movements you are making to move into your turns.

Last I checked you (and most of us) have two legs. Not one. given that, it is certainly possible... but probably not very pretty.

 I just posed a similar question in the "Turning Powers" thread though your question has me thinking a bit differently in that you seem to ask, once we have begun or initiated a shorter radius turn how can we then open it up into a longer turn?

Sure, if we end one turn in an anticipated position we can either use strong blocking of the upper body to turn the skis against to begin a short radius turn or, we could allow the torso to realign toward the feet to dissipate any torque stored in the body and follow the skis into a longer radius turn, but I believe your question is how can we change the radius once the initiation has occurred? 

I believe we would have to quickly reduce or minimize any turning torque created at initiation by moving the mass over the feet, reduce any tip pressure and edge angle, and redirect our mass more toward the outside of the turn momentarily.  In fact I am imagining kind of a counter rotation type movement which would appose the anticipation release type movement used in a shorter radius turn?  Would be interesting to experiment?

How about this then. 

When you start a turn you relese the old turn and you tip your skis off their old edges and your CoM starts to move downhill into the new turn. As your CoM is moving over your skis and into the new turn and your skis tip onto their new edges and start turning you are "falling" down into the new turn downhill. Gravity is pulling you down but after your CoM has passed over your feet and you start to project your CoM into the new turn there is no force keeping you upright. You are falling into the turn. Momentarily not in balance. But because your skis start to turn as they are tipped on edge and your CoM deviates from its original direction the centrifugal force starts to pull on you outwards in the turn and keeps you from falling to the ground. If the centrifugal force is stronger than gravity pull due to little inclination then you would be thrown outwards in the turn (think train). This is however not an option since edge hold is reduced as inclination is reduced (inclination=CoM projection to the inside of the turn) and you will not be able to bend your ski enough. The more you incline to the inside the more you can bend the ski and the stronger the centrifugal force. But even if, how would you suddenly generate a stronger centrifugal force? Yes, your only option would be incerasing speed but that is not an option because you cannot simply increase speed. No throttle pedal. So, my conclusion is that there is no force you can easily manage that can untip you before apex in a turn. 

Certainly possible! Please explain.

BTW, how would 2 legs change the scenario? I find the same kind of environment while riding a bice and snowboarding and there we are "one legged".

Yes, this is a spinnoff from that thread. Thats an excellent topic and discussion.


Exactly. Right on the dime.


Im thinking kind of the same. The outcome should be a wider radius turn. We cannot do anything about gravity because its constant and we cannot increase the centrifugal force because we are 1: widening our turn radius and 2: not increasing our speed.

Put differently, you project your upper body into the turn you want to make from the neutral position. Project more down the hill (further inside the turn) and you turn tighter, project more across the hill (further to the outside) and you turn wider.

MR

Weight distribution plays a huge role in shaping the turn that is possible - especially when discussing an arcing ski, but not limited to an arcing ski. Any change in that distribution (recognizing that it is always changing) effects the resulting turn shape. Ignoring where/when/how the release occurs (and how you define a release) and focusing on turn shape only, makes this pretty easy to discuss.

We've all seen the beginner skier who bails pre or post fall line and makes a turn that looks like a bass clef... Like I said - not pretty.




The better question to ask is why do/should we care? It seems like semantics to me...

Helluva, "why do/should we care" is really not part of this discussion. Annother thread maybe.....

Im not really talking about beginner level since they dont "incline" into the turn or produce any centrifugal forces. IMO they bail out at apex because they cannot do not one proper movement and because of gravity pulling them down hill. Has nothing to do with opening the turn midst in it in a controlled manner.

How do you open up the turn in a controlled manner by shifting your weight? I assume you are shifting it between the two skis... to the inside ski....

MasterRacer, how you project more mass to the outside as you just projected it inside?

Okay, then neither am I. Have fun! 

Just like you release from a turn at transition, via ILE or OLR, do the same thing, but abort the release when you get to the desired lower edge angle.  You can then continue the turn carving on that lower edge angle, or use the lower edge angle to make reverse steering possible. 

How's that for short and sweet? 

Sorry TDK, gravity pulling toward the outside of the turn is not needed to loosen a turn.  There is a hill near where I used to live.  I used to like skiing down one run, turning a corner and going up an adjacent run and then turning down a third run.  I have made turns down hill, uphill, on the flat in every which way.  Centrifugal force pulls you to the outside of the turn.  You are balancing on the cusp of being pulled to the outside.  It doesn't take much to come down on one side or the other.  When you ski slowly, it is true that you have to angulate, and there will be some very slight unusual lateral forces applied at the skis edge to maintain balance at times.

TDK your post in response to me only reinforces what I said previously which is I think you need to look at how you move into the turn. Your statements "momentarily out of balance" and "no force you can easily manage that can untip you before apex in a turn" stand out to me.

suggests that you could move more accurately into the turn. That you might be rushing you lateral movements into the turn by moving your hips and body ahead of your feet. Letting your inclination get ahead of your tipping movements. Move more forward as you start your turns, the lateral movement will happen as you tip your skis up on edge. If you stay over your feet and edges from a lateral perspective, then you should be able to reduce tipping and lengthen out your turn when wanted


I think of this as our movement create the forces we feel as opposed to the forces we feel creating our movements. So make movements that will lengthen the turn. Reduce you edge angles and add in one or the other of Rick's suggestions and there you will have it,,,,a turn radius change to a longer radius in the upper half of your turns.

We can balance internally as well TDK, even when our skis are lite and we have less centrifugal force working on us, provided we have been moving accurately and we maintain alignment.

TDK, I think of tightening a turn as shortening the radius, sometimes accompanied by coming more across the fall line.  The opposite would be lengthening the turn, achieved by lengthening the radius, and also staying more in the fall line.  Is this what you're describing?

In general, this sounds like changing rhythm & radius on demand, which I would say is an expected skill capability for advanced skiers, and especially racers.

 

But you cannot relese a turn at any moment in time. You can only relese a turn when your relesed mass will not be drawn to the ground by gravity. For instance if you are at apex like in the dagram above, how do you lift your CoM up and vault it over to the outside of the turn using ILE?

What is reverse steering  ?

Lets say you want to lengthen the turn radius at initiation compared to previous turn. What would you do differently?

I would extend the glide between turns just a little, and then hold the ski in the fall line longer.  Angulation at the end of the longer turn would probably be reduced.

An example of where I might do this is in a GS course going from a 24m regular gate to a 32-36m delay gate.

Funny!
It really isn't complex TDK. Reverse engineer it! If you want to tighten a turn you tip more, bend the ski more, or steer the ski more into the turn. Which of these can't be reversed?
The fact that you don't see that as a possibility suggests to me that the best advice I could offer is rethinking about all the possible ways you could close the radius. There should not be a disconnect between doing and undoing things.

 For the most part I would say untipping the skis will do the most to widen the radius of a turn already in progress. This will cause some side slipping to occur which will do a number of things.  For one thing it will slip you outward into a wider radius.  For another thing it will bleed off some of the turn forces, which may reduce the bend of the ski. 

Hmmm...
That sounded a little harsh, which wasn't my intent TDK. All I'm saying is in reviewing how you create a turn you will find the answers. The impression of getting locked in a certain radius turn and not being able to tighten or lengthen the turn radius is a very real sensation. I think it would be safe to say we've all done this. I know this might sound simplistic but If you don't want to get "stuck" in that situation maybe the entry into the turn needs to be different.

Adjusting the skills blend mid-turn will immediately change the size and shape of turn but it requires us to be in a relatively balanced stance when we make those changes. When we're not relatively balanced we're painted in a corner and our options get limited to whatever recovery moves will get us back into a more balanced stance. We call this maintaining a dynamic yet balanced stance that will allow us to selectively access any of the skills at any point in any turn. Mind you I'm not suggesting we can jump back up a cliff, only that in the scope of a well balanced turn we should have the ability to change the size, shape, amount of skid / carve, etc.

ILE will work at any time you're engaged in a turn.  Lateral forces exist when turning, your directional relationship to the falline is irrelevant.  ILE employs those forces to pull you out of the turn. It will work at any orientation to the falline. 

Have you ever ended one turn and transitioned into a new one when your skis were pointing straight down the falline?  Sure you have.  It can be done with ILE, OLR or retraction, just like when transitioning at any other orientation to the falline.   

The question is, "how do you abort the transtion after losing some of your edge angle, but before going to edge angle neutral?" 

Easy.  It's like JASP said,,, reverse engineer it.  ILE works by transferring pressure to the inside leg via subtle extension.  That sets the CM in lateral motion across the skis.  To bring the process to a halt, simply press back down on the outside leg, and relax the inside.  The CM will regain lateral balance and stop toppling across the skis. 

Reverse steering?  That's an easy one to explain too.  You know that a ski has a maximum turn radius built into the sidecut.  If you tip your skis on the slightest edge possible you can only carve as large a radius turn as the sidecut will allow. 

Can you produce a larger radius turn than that built in limitation in some manner?  You bet,,, by gently steering your edged skis away from the direction they want to turn as you go through the arc. 
Edited by Rick - 11/5/09 at 4:35pm

I agree, glide longer and maybe not as much early tipping? Your GS example is a good one, I double turn frequently very early before any serious tipping has taken place. But double turning is not like opening up the turn radius, its more like aborting the turn and then starting a new one.

You are suggesting, to open up the turn you:
- tip less
- bend the ski less
- steer the ski less into the turn

The two first ones are coupled, tip more and you bend your ski more. Tip less and it bends less. But these are setup moves and part of your tactics as you come into the turn. Want to turn tighter tip more. Want to turn less tip less. But note that effective tipping needs to be done early in the turn. Once the turn forces build up you are not able to tip more as easily. Your options for tightening your turn all include raising your edge angles. That you can do by angulating or countering. Or pointing your knees into the turn for increasing your steering angle. That was your third suggestion. But how do you steer less if you are not steering at all?

Fundamental question: un-tip, how? My CoM is outside the BoS, inside my inside ski and Im "falling into the turn". Extending my inside foot will only move my CoM furnter away from my BoS further inside the turn (the most common misstake BTW). And note, in the direciton of gravity downhill. This is before apex offcourse. You cannot apply same mechanics before apex and after due to this little detail. Overlooked in my opinion. Sofar nobody agreeing with me. Anyway, as you come through apex and head through the belly of the turn what happens to your BoS? If turn radius, speed and the centrifugal force remains constant its easy to see why we would be pulled down the hill and untipping. And note that now gravity is in fact trying to pull you uphill and not downhill. 

Also ILE in the middle of tipping would result in loosing outside ski pressure.

Reverse engineering doesent always work. Like noted here above, you cannot jump back up the mountain. Or reverse a parashute jump. Both have gravity in common. Just like tipping has. Tipping is like jumping out off and airoplane. This is why a wedge is such a good method of learning becaue it puts your hips away from over your pressured ski.

What movements would you use to untip?

Side slipping makes sence. How about a pivot?