Boot fitting, did it make a difference for you ?

Greetings, I have searched and read many many threads regarding boot fitting, but didn't find these questions asked and answered by the many bears.

Have you had your boots fitted/custom insoles made? If no, why not?
Did that experience have any impact on your technique? If yes, what?
What ballpark amount did you pay for the fitters services/insoles?

I ask because I have been back to skiing for I think my sixth year this 09/10 season. I have never had the 3 pairs of boots I have owned in that period fitted. Last year I went to Tecnica 120 Dragons from Tecnica Diablos that were a few years older. Both boots were great, once they packed down for a week or so.

In my quest to continue to improve my technique, I am wondering if the money spent on fitting/insoles will have the significant impact, to justify the expense? Your opinion is appreciated.

If you all tell me to do it, should I go to Footloose in Mammoth in Dec (first trip) or wait until mid Feb to do it in Tahoe?

Thanks

 I have had bootfitting done a few times in my years of skiing.  It is definitely worth doing.  The results will vary widely as there is as much art as there is science to it, in my opinion.  Let's just say that in spite of what a fitter would say, it's an inexact science.

That said, having your boots setup so when you stand in a natural athletic stance that you are balanced fore/aft and canted properly left to right is very important to developing skiing skills.

I have spent anywhere from a little to well over $200 which included a new footbed and extensive heating up and shaping out parts of the shell that squeezed my foot, and sole planing.

My take on it is this. For some people having a real "bootfitting" can be a drastic change for the good, for others it can make little difference. The reason is we are all individuals and not all built alike. There is a small number of the skiing population who are just blessed with naturally good alignment, those people will not see as much benefit as someone who has really messed up alignment. It's like golf, you can go out and swing clubs that you bought at a yard sale and have a good time, or you can spend a small fortune on full blown custom gear and still have a good time. It all depends on how far you want to take things.

I havent gone with custom insoles or gotten fancy with the bootfitting, but I did go see one with my new boots last year. After a little punching (not the bootfitter, lol), a little shaving, and a little wedging, my boots were SOOO much more comfortable. So comfortable in fact that I didnt need to loosen them at lunch, and when I got back to the condo, I kept them on until it was time to get ready for dinner. Best $14 Ive spent on this sport.

I think JDoyal nailed it.  If you have problem feet, you tend to think bootfitting will be a life-changing experience for everyone.  If you have easy feet, you tend to think the bootfitting fans are imagining things.

Personally, I've found intuition liners to be a far more worthwhile investment than bootfitting. I know I'm in the minority around here, but I used to find myself back at the bootfitters 2 or 3 times...when I started using the intuitions, I got great fit and better performance the first time then I ever did with insoles or bootfitting.

I don't have "easy" feet but even if I did I would consider custom footbeds a "must have."  I've gone through several pair over the years and have paid anywhere between 80 and 200 for footbeds.  Money well spent. 

Using the stock insoles in the Dragons is like putting Goodyear tires on a Porsche.

The Dragon is a top of the line, basically racing boot. If you are the type of skier who needs this level of performance, than getting custom footbeds is not an issue. You just do it.

My feet are hard to fit - one's an 8 1/2, the other a 10. In size 7 1/2 (25.5) boots. Required a lot of minor adjustments and heating the shell. Custom fit is the only way to go for me.

I am now more aggressive than ever in the bumps. I can turn with just a thought, that's how responsive my boots are. Frozen slush bumps (death cookies) in the spring are actually fun! I ski old school 200 and 205 cm racing skis, mostly on the longest hardest black diamond runs I can find and only stop when I get to the lift.

I have the Dragon 120's, hard to fit feet, and Superfeet Kork (cost me $100) footbeds. The fitting service came for free with the boot purchase at Colorado Ski and Golf. Highly recommend them, even though it is a "chain" shop. They have a few very knowledgable people, the others are competent.

Hope that helps,
A White Raven

Let me also make one thing clear. I do think that most skiers will benefit from at least a good footbed, it should be figured into the price when any "good" skiers is looking for boots. I do not consider a footbed to be "bootfitting". A footbed is simply where the bootfitting process starts.

I agree that it depends on your feet and your boots, and whether you think the "fitting" process includes the process of selecting the right boots for your feet in the first place, or whether you just mean adjustments.  For me and my weird feet and lower legs, punches and such are a necessity with any boot, but with a well-chosen boot, it's so much less of any issue.

Yes to fitting, custom insoles and boot sole planing (canting). 

The edges would engage properly, my knees stopped hurting.  The insoles and canting were about $250.

I'd pay double.

It is my opinion (opinion, not necessarily fact cast in stone) that it is very difficult to get a pair of boots to fit properly without custom footbeds.

When you put weight on a foot that is not adequately supported, it gets longer and wider. You end up buying a pair of boots that is too big. Then you buckle them too tight because your foot is moving around. Then you ski in pain with poor control.

JDoyal is correct. A custom footbed  is a basic necessity. If you have "easy feet" and naturally good alignment, that may be all you need. But most of us can benefit from additional fitting and alignment work. How much you benefit depends on your foot, leg and body structure, your posture, your attitude, your fitter, and many other things.

Fitting allows me to wear a pair of Dobermanns all day without unbuckling at lunch, except for the first three runs. Yes, they're snug enough so that the first three runs are not comfortable, so I unbuckle on the lift for those three. My choice. I could have had a more "relaxed" fit, but I like response from small movements. I'm creaky and old and I probably don't have the range of motion I had when I was a wee lad.

FWIW, the Dobie has a narrow last and I can wear it. Without the footbeds, even a relatively wide boot causes pain across the front of my foot behind my toes.

Alignment (sole planing) gives me a more progressive edge release with more subtle movements that would otherwise be required. My alignment adjustments are small, but I can tell the difference.

Could not agree with this more.

There are two different levels of "boot fitting"  I had my boots aligned for the first time at the Snowmass ESA a couple years ago. Before then I had been "fitted", and the boots punched and shaped to help make them comfortable and IMO high-performing.  Full alignment means that the footbed is built to improve contact and response in the boot, the fore and aft position may be adjusted by changing foot (zeppa) or leg (cuff) angles, and the lateral canting is installed in the boot sole to give you equal use of both edges with minimal effort or input from the skier (edge engagement by only rolling the ankle).

I think if your boots are fitted close and well and are reasonably comfortable, you have achieved something that the majority of skiers do not experience. You can certainly ski well in this setup.  If you have actually had the boots customized to account for the shape of your foot, ankle flexibility, calf size, stance and the many variables that affect how you can engage the edges on your skis,  then you are in the 1-percent club.  It is noticeable to very good skiers, and can make less accomplished skiers better.   Most of us can compensate for mis-alignment, but having the equipment built to resolve it is something.  Don't knock it until you've tried it.

also depends on the problem that bootfitting is trying to solve.    I;ve had some customers that the issue is mainly from above the knee.

so ya,  what others have said.   for most, yes, for all no.

When the total cost of skiing is taken into account and the amount of money fitting and alignment represent in the whole scheme of things I don't think there is anything that represents a moe prudent use of funds. The shiny new skis at the expense of getting your boots dialed in won't allow you to ski better. Spend the money , probably in 90% of the cases its well worth it.

Question about footbeds, specifically Superfeet.  A little background, I have Agent 120's in 27.5.  I am pretty happy with the boots, although I have a *little* too much room in the toe box.  I would like the toe box to be a tiny bit tighter.  The rest of the boot is very tight, which is how I like it. 

I have flat feet.  I am nervous about getting an off the shelf footbed.  Even though the stock footbeds (I have the stock ones and a pair from Dragon 120's, I am told they are basically the same boot) seems to be pretty crappy to me, they don't have a high arch.  I don't have any pain with these boots and with hockey skates I will get TONS of pain with a boot that has a high arch.... basically I can only wear Tacks.  I do not want to replicate this in my ski boots.

Thoughts?

If I am stealing this thread and should start a new one, feel free to inform me, I will delete this post and start a new one.  Thanks!

Go to a shop that will let you compare the different off the shelf Superfeet footbeds - blue. green, black, orange, berry - by standing with one foot on one color and the other on another color.  Compare, mix and match until you find the Superfeet footbed that best suits you.  I'm guessing that it will be the blue or maybe the black (lowest arch), but try them all.  Then buy it, because all Superfeet have a 60 day money-back guarantee so if they don't work for you go back and get your refund.  

I don't expect the footbeds will help with your extra toe room though, but they're likely to reduce foot fatigue and increase your performance.  

 I have bony, busted and ugly feet that are different sizes and have toes that seem to have just drawn straws as to who's longer.  Any boot that will be snug enough will most definitely need at least 3 stretches and footbeds to fit right for me.  I would wake up to black toenails on the regular before I discovered the wonders of professional bootfitting.  Everyone's feet are different, though.  Just make sure you go to a real pro and I'm sure they'll figure out what's best for you...  
 

It really depends on your foot and how it is "built" there are more than one type of "flat foot". My first question is why an off the shelf foot bed? Your foot may or may not tolerate the arch of even the lowest OTS footbed. Custom would probably work much better for you. Again, without seeing the foot this is all speculation at best.

Have you had your boots fitted/custom insoles made? If no, why not?  Yes to both, including punching and grinding, adding Lange Cant Lugs on the right boot, and ZipFit liners.

Did that experience have any impact on your technique? If yes, what? Absolutely! Warmer, more comfortable feet means better feel and sensation response. Correct alignment and balancing means better control of my skis with less effort.
What ballpark amount did you pay for the fitters services/insoles? For Superfeet Cork footbeds, sole lugs, punching and grinding, and ZipFits; about $320 or so, over the course of 3 years. It has all been worth every freakin' penny!

I mentioned a little about this in a review of the Phoenix 90 pair i recently bought for quite the penny.  Before I had a fitter look at my feet and help pick out the right pair skiing was not enjoyable, every boot I wore had no vertical space for my bony high-arches, which ended up forcing the front of the foot down into the boot and cutting off the circulation to the point of feeling numb feet for at least a full day.  As if that wasn't enough, my toes look like the edge of a steep parabola when viewed from above, and the feet are just narrow in general.  A visit to Ski West, some footbeds and $450 later, I came away with something I actually wanted to wear.  It wasn't perfect now that i've worn them a couple of times, but given my track record more than acceptable, and once I get a feel for them on a hill i'll know what needs to be done to improve the fit.

(Although after "seeing" Work's feet I consider myself lucky)

• 1-Yes
• 2-The difference in the boots from start to finish was like the difference between renting an apartment and buying a home.Because I travel to ski a bit, I have had the good fortune of working with two boot fitters who have a mutual respect for each other and similar mantras.IIRC Bud Heishman is in Tahoe, .......not a bad choice eh?
• I actually can't recall what it cost, but I do recall that I thought it was extremely reasonable compared to what I thought it could have been.  I'm sure it depends on the level of expertise/education/reputation that the fitter has

Here is a thread about my boot fitting experience, complete with pictures.
Starting with Jim here in Michigan
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/75821/good-reason-for-a-chick-to-have-a-fit#post_1001739
And the follow up from my experience with Bud while at BigSky ESA
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/75821/good-reason-for-a-chick-to-have-a-fit/30#post_1088513 

 I always had problems with boots - `I have a very wide forefoot, and narrow ankles, and very flat feet. I think choosing the right shell is the most important thing. I got some salomon impacts, which admittedly did need punching about 3 times, but i have never skiied in anything as comfortable ever. Get rid of the stock footbeds, I didn't get custom, but just heat moulded ones, a lot cheaper, but still make a big difference. 

     Quote: Thanks Bob, good idea.


Just because I don't really have the money to drop on custom footbeds this year, and being that I am not having *too* much trouble with my stock footbeds, I was hoping for this year I could find a cheaper solution that would gain me a little extra performance, and try that out for a season. 

If it helps I have a skinny heel, slightly narrow foot, and a flat arch.

EDIT:  I am going to start a thread in the boot fitters section, as I don't want to litter the OP's thread with my questions.


Edited by skier2369 - 11/4/09 at 6:15am

When I got started with trim to fit footbeds, they did make a difference.  At the time I, too, wasn't prepared to spend the $100+ for custom foot beds, so I understand your situation.  Do what you can, when you can, and you'll notice the positives along the way, I promise!

Wow, everyone has an opinion so I'll add one.  Boot-fitting means a lot more than getting something custom.  Boot-fitting starts with the boot-fitter, which if done properly begins with questions, then they will measure your foot, bring out a variety of boots, take the liner out and check the shell size with your foot into it, then you'll try on a lot of different boots to figure out, which is right for you. 

Then begins the art of cutting, molding, canting or anything else that's need to ensure your foot & leg is aligned properly. 

As for custom foot-beds; my opinion is they are 100% worth the extra money and if well done and maintained will last through your next pair of boots.  Mine are already on their second pair of boots. 

Advantages, improved skiing, warmer feet and little to no pain or discomfort.  That's the real payoff!

What he said...it's as much an art as a science, and you'll get a surprising variety of stories and experiences about it.  It also helps if you know exactly what you're looking for, and what you liked or didn't like about the last boots you were in.  I think that somebody also mentioned in this thread that there are two general aspects of boot fitting, comfort and alignment.  Comfort, IMHO, is the most important.  I ski in an Atomic RaceTech CS 130. I have two pairs, one brand new.  I had the brand new pair ground once, then again, and now I can buckle them the way I want in the morning and ski in them all day without unbuckling.  I also have them aligned the way I want, and alignment is obviously important, but if they ain't comfortable...fix that problem first. 

So here's the story on my boots, and this is just one more data point for comparison.  I have a pair of RaceTech CSs that have 130 days in them.  The liners are definitely packing out, and the shells don't have any cracks or other problems, but I can feel them softening up.  So those are my free ski/cold day boots, and I just got another pair of CS 103s.  I've found that I don't do well with most custom insoles...they feel too rigid to me, and I can't feel what the ski is doing through the bottom of my foot.  So I either go with the stock insoles, which in my new boots, seem just fine, or with a pair of Super Foot Blues.  They give me all the support I need and the stance I want, and I can feel what's going on under my foot.  The only stuff I needed to have done, comfortwise, on my old boots, was some grinding in the 6th toe area and on the opposite side, where the big toe joins to the foot.  I went to my buddy Larry (Larry's, in Boulder) who looked at my old boots, looked at my feet, made similar grinds with some minor adjustments, and presto, they fit just fine. 

I'm usually just fine doing cuff canting for alignment, and I dinked around with the cuff canting last year (Atomics let you cant both the inside and outside) until I got what I wanted...then I dialed the same numbers into my new boots, and presto...I feel like I'm lined up right where I want to be laterally.  One of the reasons I switched to Atomics from Lange is that I don't need heel lifts, wedges between the liner and shell, or whatever...my basic stance out of the box is pretty much right on the numbers.  The 130 flex is plenty enough for SL and GS, and I can ease the buckles back to soften the fore and aft flex sufficiently for powder, bumps...and SG and DH.  Oh, yeah, I also added a World Cup Booster Strap, which I always do, because it makes the forward flex progressive. 

So that's my story...your mileage may vary...

After not skiing for 15 years, my kids started taking lessons and I ran out and bought stuff...the Salomon mission 10 was the boot i settled on.  Good price and it fit.  So I thought.  A couple of trips to the mountain and I decided on some intuition liners. 

Didn't really know what I was getting, other than a custom liner (so I can't say that I was specifically looking for the intuition, it's what they sold).  Man, I should have done it from the start.  I can't remember what I paid, but I'd double it.  I guess it's not to say I couldn't have went out and dropped $600 on a pair of boots, but the boot was on sale, and the cost of the liner and I was still ahead with a boot that I can wear all day.

1. Yes, both.
2. Yes, in that I ski without pain which lets me ski longer and without distraction.  He also adjusted the forward lean so that I don't get tired as early.  It made a huge difference.
3. Insoles - $110: Fitter - $130