GUILTY!

#31

Rating: 1

11/4/09 at 2:40pm

comprex
offline

Joined: October 2003
Post Count: 10,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook

No.

20 cyclists is a very small group of users relative to overall roadway usage, but if they take up a whole lane can inconvenience thousands of other road users.

So can 1 parallel parker or 1 farm vehicle or 1 school bus, or however many cars one can fit in one lane between traffic lights. So what?

Those cyclists are entitled to be there just as much as the parallel parker or farm vehicle or school bus or cars waiting for the next light in a row of them.

Thousands? Poor choice of commute on their parts then.

Quote:

The entitlement mentality that makes them feel they can do that on a regular basis is interesting,

Not all roadies do this, and groups of, say 2, are far less likely to do this than larger groups. The "strength in numbers" dynamic says a lot by itself of course.

The first person on a legal vehicle at a particular section of road is entitled to use that section of road at any legal speed.

Now on Mondays.

#32

Rating: 0

11/4/09 at 4:26pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

Quote:

Originally Posted by comprex

The first person on a legal vehicle at a particular section of road is entitled to use that section of road at any legal speed.

+1
Edited by telerod15 - 11/4/09 at 4:41pm

#33

Rating: 0

11/4/09 at 4:29pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

delete

Edited by telerod15 - 11/4/09 at 4:39pm

#34

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 4:52am

Roadrash
offline

Joined: March 2007
Location: Duluth, GA
Post Count: 373

Quote:

Originally Posted by telerod15

Bushwacker, If you pass me, unless I'm in the gutter or on the shoulder or sidewalk, you will need to go a little bit into another lane. If I ride to the right of the lane, I get people trying to go into the other lane as little as possible. Drivers prefer to be dangerously close to a cyclist than to cross a painted line and if they feel like they "have" to cross a painted line, for example to pass a slow moving vehicle, they prefer to cross it by as little as possible.

Ditto that. I find it safest to ride several feet to the left of the white line. If you hug the line the cars will pall you without moving into the other lane and run you right off the road.

All's for the best in this best of all possible worlds

#35

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 6:26am

CTKook
offline

Joined: February 2006
Post Count: 1,133

This thread pretty well documents the attitudes that cause people to occasionally go off on cyclists. Show a complete lack of consideration for others and sooner or later someone will show a lack of consideration back. The asymmetry here is that it's easy for the cyclist to cause hassles for others, and any response by a driver trying to give a little back, due to the vehicle vs. bike dynamic, will almost always border on criminal from the get-go.

All you dudes don't seem to need expensive bike lanes since riding out of the bike lane two abreast is cool, good to know they can stop spending money on that stuff.

#36

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 7:39am

Alpinord
offline

Joined: September 2006
Location: On another Tangent
Post Count: 2,743

Oregon seems to be very proactive in addressing these issues:

Quote:

Additional Fees: $10 for two-year registration period, $20 for four-year registration period (new vehicles). Only due at initial issuance.
Proceeds Benefit: Additional fees go to the Bicycle Transportation Alliance and Cycle Oregon.
Who Qualifies: Anyone
Available For: Passenger Vehicles

And Eugene just achieved a Gold Level designation for bicycle friendly community.

It'll take time, tolerance and a multi-front approach (planning, education, construction, dollars, etc) to slowly change negative entitlement attitudes between recreational and purposeful uses of the roads to find balance and compromise.

'Share The Road' goes both ways.

Edited by Alpinord - 11/5/09 at 7:59am

Best Regards, Terry Be sure to check out our growing ACTIVITY SUPPORT products for your next outing.

Ski and Snowboard Weblog and Tips EpicSki Discounts Activity Support Products

#37

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 7:55am

comprex
offline

Joined: October 2003
Post Count: 10,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook

All you dudes don't seem to need expensive bike lanes since riding out of the bike lane two abreast is cool, good to know they can stop spending money on that stuff.

Again, I fail to see why anyone is entitled to force legal users off a road just because that anyone wants to go faster.

The same principle applies to granny doing 40mph in a 55mph zone or to funeral corteges or to urban buses or to cyclists.     They are entitled to the road because they were there first.

I will agree though, bicycle lanes are pretty near useless:   drivers park in them, drift across them, drivers turn across them at intersections (cutting lane users off), the lanes themselves collect tire flattening debris, and the lanes are too often run straight across manholes and street drains.

About the only benefit I can see is possibly raising the awareness of the possibility of a non-motorized road user's presence.    But that awareness should exist anyway, because pedestrians can be anywhere.

Now on Mondays.

#38

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 8:01am

comprex
offline

Joined: October 2003
Post Count: 10,814

I'm not even going to start diving into the morass of recreational vs. purposeful.

Actually, maybe I should. Have drivers justify driving to a party, movie, or store, that is.

Now on Mondays.

#39

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 8:04am

slider
offline

Joined: June 2001
Post Count: 4,245

In Central Oregon there are alot of riders on the back roads. From what I have observed most drivers are courteous towards the riders. Local professional drivers give the bikes a wide bearth in case something goes South during an overtake. You just don't get a second chance with a 85 foot,53 ton truck. There are some riders that have an attitude but you really can't blame them after some knothead goes by them at 40mph and 2 feet from them. Winter arrives in C.O. this week so the Spandex crowd will be off the roads.

#40

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 8:10am

Alpinord
offline

Joined: September 2006
Location: On another Tangent
Post Count: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by comprex

Actually, maybe I should. Have drivers justify driving to a party, movie, or store, that is.

That would be recreational (except maybe 'store') as would driving to a ski area on the tailgate of someone driving to work (ie, purposeful).

Best Regards, Terry Be sure to check out our growing ACTIVITY SUPPORT products for your next outing.

Ski and Snowboard Weblog and Tips EpicSki Discounts Activity Support Products

#41

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 8:17am

comprex
offline

Joined: October 2003
Post Count: 10,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpinord

That would be recreational as would driving to a ski area on the tailgate of someone driving to work (ie, purposeful).

'zackly.

Now on Mondays.

#42

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 8:45am

Alpinord
offline

Joined: September 2006
Location: On another Tangent
Post Count: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by habacomike

I'm not a fan of cycling on multi-use paths. I think they are dangerous, particularly where they cross roads. I much rather to be on the road, in traffic, where the traffic has a better chance of seeing me. And given that my average speed is close to 20 MPH, I don't think I mix very well with pedestrians on a MUP.

Madison, WI and surrounding towns have an excellent integration and network of multi-use paths and streets which ties into a fee area that allows users a uninhibited access to the countryside and no vehicles. In the winter the network is also used for XC skiing. It is a great way to get kids (or timid wives) on road bikes as well as commuting and working out.

Best Regards, Terry Be sure to check out our growing ACTIVITY SUPPORT products for your next outing.

Ski and Snowboard Weblog and Tips EpicSki Discounts Activity Support Products

#43

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 4:06pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook

This thread pretty well documents the attitudes that cause people to occasionally go off on cyclists. Show a complete lack of consideration for others and sooner or later someone will show a lack of consideration back. The asymmetry here is that it's easy for the cyclist to cause hassles for others, and any response by a driver trying to give a little back, due to the vehicle vs. bike dynamic, will almost always border on criminal from the get-go.

All you dudes don't seem to need expensive bike lanes since riding out of the bike lane two abreast is cool, good to know they can stop spending money on that stuff.

The attitude that bicyclist should have the same right to use the roads as motorists? You might want to get some counseling. Please do not drive until you have resolved your issues.

Here's how we roll in DC :)

#44

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 6:05pm

at_nyc
offline

Joined: February 2007
Post Count: 1,293

Quote:

Originally Posted by comprex

Again, I fail to see why anyone is entitled to force legal users off a road just because that anyone wants to go faster.

The same principle applies to granny doing 40mph in a 55mph zone or to funeral corteges or to urban buses or to cyclists. They are entitled to the road because they were there first.

Apperently the law (of some states) don't agree with you!

As mentioned above by someone else, if there're more than 3 (or 5?) cars behind you and you're going significantly slower than the speed limit, you're obligated to yield the road to the traffic that's moving at normal speed! It applies to both granny in a station wagon AND cyclists!

Most roads are build with public money to facilitate transportation of people and goods. Clogging up the road for long period of time is wasting the public's money.

A more pratical consideration is, if you hold up the traffic long enough, they're going to attempt to pass you at the first marginal opportunity they see. And guess what? If there's on-coming traffic, they're going to swing right back to "their" lane, which is exactly where YOU are!

It's much better to "control" the situation by yielding the road at a point that's safest for YOU.

#45

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 6:27pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

Motorized vehicles are not permitted to use the bike lane.

Quote: Most roads are build with public money to facilitate transportation of people and goods. Clogging up the road for long period of time is wasting the public's money.

So get your damn car off the road already. I never get stuck behind bicycles. I get stuck behind automobile traffic jams many times every day. If you are trying to facilitate the transportation of goods, get the hell out of my way

#46

Rating: 0

11/5/09 at 8:01pm

at_nyc
offline

Joined: February 2007
Post Count: 1,293

Yep! Around here, they're called "Bus Only" lanes! You'd better get your damn car off that lane!!!

You drive there, whatever your speed, you'll get a pretty hefty ticket! Pay your due to my city. ;-)

#47

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 3:50am

comprex
offline

Joined: October 2003
Post Count: 10,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by at_nyc

Apperently the law (of some states) don't agree with you!

As mentioned above by someone else, if there're more than 3 (or 5?) cars behind you and you're going significantly slower than the speed limit, you're obligated to yield the road to the traffic that's moving at normal speed! It applies to both granny in a station wagon AND cyclists!

The law doesn't disagree with me, because _until_ such a law as you cite exists, running granny off the road is illegal.

The point is that, if you really have thousands of cars clogged up behind cyclists, the place to fix it is the political arena, not on the road.

Most roads are build with public money to facilitate transportation of people and goods. Clogging up the road for long period of time is wasting the public's money.

Fully agreed.

And 20 cyclists at 18mph is MORE people in a lane than the 4, 5 cars you can fit in the same space. No car at rush hour drives more than 20mph.

Shall we get rid of all the cars at rush hour?

It's much better to "control" the situation by yielding the road at a point that's safest for YOU.

Certainly. The question is what happens up until you do that.

Now on Mondays.

#48

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 6:32am

CTKook
offline

Joined: February 2006
Post Count: 1,133

Quote:

Originally Posted by comprex

The law doesn't disagree with me, because _until_ such a law as you cite exists, running granny off the road is illegal.

The point is that, if you really have thousands of cars clogged up behind cyclists, the place to fix it is the political arena, not on the road...

No one has argued that running anyone off the road is ever called for. As I stated, there is an asymmetry inherent in the differences between bikes and cars which makes it easy for cyclists to be dicks if they so choose (many do not do this) and effectively leaves drivers with no legal recourse.

As for laws, here's the relevant section from my state:

Operating bicycle on roadway.

1. Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall, except:

(a) When traveling at a lawful rate of speed commensurate with the speed of any nearby traffic;

(b) When preparing to turn left; or

(c) When doing so would not be safe,

ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction.

2. Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.

Net net, this means don't be a dick: don't interrupt the flow of traffic needlessly, etc. Other sections of all states' laws of which I'm aware require cyclists to obey things like stop signs, etc. So, the group that I'd mentioned earlier in this thread was violating the traffic laws both in the manner in which they were riding and by blowing through every stop sign and light.

We all know this routinely happens. I've known CYCLISTS who've admitted to buzzing other cyclists when they were driving and infuriated by someone being a dick by hogging the road. There are lots of petty incitements in the world that, if you do them enough, will in the real world predictably result in your pushing someone's button. When that person goes off, they may be the one who's guilty of crossing the legal line into criminal misconduct, but it doesn't make it advisable to wake up in the morning planning a day of petty incitement. That's true whether it involves intentionally taking your dog onto other people's lawns to piss, or intentionally hogging a lane and holding up traffic on your bike while the cars stack up behind you.

#49

Rating: 1

11/6/09 at 2:32pm

tromano
offline

Joined: November 2004
Location: Logan, UT
Post Count: 1,974

Entitlement: Relative to UT state laws.

Drivers feel entitled to the road. And that cyclists should ride on the shoulder, in the gutter on the side walk, or anywhere else just get off the road.

Cyclists are entitled to ride on the road and can take a lane in almost all situations.

Drivers feel entitled to driving as fast as they like whenever they want.

Cyclists are entitled to travel on roads at any legal speed.

Drivers feel that slow cylists should get out of thier way imediately.

Cyclsits are entitled to travel in the lane and may yeild when they feel it is safe to do so.

Drivers feel that cyclists should make it easy for them to pass by riding single file.

Cyclsits are entitled to ride 2 abreast in a single lane. And (in UT) are entitled to a 3ft wide bubble of protection from cars.

Drivers think they are entitled to drive on narrow twisty two lane roads with out being inconveinced.

Cyclists are entitled to ride without being assualted.

Edited by tromano - 11/6/09 at 2:58pm

#50

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 3:46pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

Tromano's post has been given a rating. Very well composed post, Tim.

I only read the first few sentences of ctKOOK's last missive, it failed to hold my interest. I could not get past the ridiculous idea the bikers are the bullies because they can so easily be killed by motorists, not the first time ctKOOK has put forward this sickening idea. Dude, get help!

#51

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 3:50pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

Quote:

Originally Posted by telerod15

Tromano's post has been given a rating. Very well composed post, Tim.

I only read the first few sentences of ctKOOK's last missive, it failed to hold my interest. I could not get past the ridiculous idea the bikers are the bullies because they can so easily be killed by motorists, not the first time ctKOOK has put forward this sickening idea. Dude, get help!

And quit calling people dicks. It exposes you as a crude person in addition to being the ignorant selfish dangerously hostile twit that your ideas make evident.

#52

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 3:57pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTKook

When that person goes off, they may be the one who's guilty of crossing the legal line into criminal misconduct, but it doesn't make it advisable to wake up in the morning planning a day of petty incitement. That's true whether it involves intentionally taking your dog onto other people's lawns to piss, or intentionally hogging a lane and holding up traffic on your bike while the cars stack up behind you.

Please get professional help. You are a very sick person.

#53

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 4:31pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

When I go to work, I am not "planning a day of petty incitement". I'm just going to work. I transport freight with a slow moving human powered vehicle for a living. Should I be condemned or commended for doing work that would otherwise be done by cars?

#54

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 4:38pm

GarryZ
offline

Joined: February 2006
Location: Lake of Liberty in the GNW
Post Count: 7,163

I think this effort should be offered the respect it is due. Human power is a good thing and it must be allowed the space to encourage others to follow. Sorry drivers but we all should be on our bikes more and in town the bike is the most efficient mode of travel considering the waste and pollution created by other forms of travel.

If I'm in the city and T and others are working the streets for profit and exercise than it's time to chill and respect what others are doing for the good of us all.

#55

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 5:12pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

Well I'm doing it more for my own good than for the good of all of us, but I guess that's part of the reason.

Would you rather be stuck behind a tour group on Segways, a freight biker or a Street Blimp?There is something about a mobile billboard that makes me want to perform manslaughter with my vehicle.

It's a free country and we're all just trying to make a buck.

#56

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 5:14pm

Alpinord
offline

Joined: September 2006
Location: On another Tangent
Post Count: 2,743

It sure makes me wonder what communities would or could be if it had been designed around human powered access and mass transit, not the automobile........not to mention the shape, attitudes and well being of it's inhabitants.

Best Regards, Terry Be sure to check out our growing ACTIVITY SUPPORT products for your next outing.

Ski and Snowboard Weblog and Tips EpicSki Discounts Activity Support Products

#57

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 5:32pm

Alpinord
offline

Joined: September 2006
Location: On another Tangent
Post Count: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by telerod15

Would you rather be stuck behind a tour group on Segways, a freight biker or a Street Blimp?

Given a choice:

Or:

Either would change 'entitlement' attitudes and slow down traffic.

Best Regards, Terry Be sure to check out our growing ACTIVITY SUPPORT products for your next outing.

Ski and Snowboard Weblog and Tips EpicSki Discounts Activity Support Products

#58

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 5:48pm

telerod15
offline

Joined: March 2004
Location: Maryland
Post Count: 6,233

Agreed, although the first one looks pretty fast, unlikely I would feel stuck behind or need to pass.

#59

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 6:30pm

TomB
offline

Joined: August 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada
Post Count: 2,460

telerod15: I do not share the lane and I do not ride on the shoulder. If you don't like it, run me over. You won't be the first. Or change lanes to pass me.

I hate this attitude. I road ride a lot and I do my best not to antagonize drivers, simply because "I am right". Being right while some a-hole runs over me won't get me any brownie points. Frankly I feel like hiding under a rock when I see bikers taking the lane and holding up traffic.

#60

Rating: 0

11/6/09 at 6:51pm

comprex
offline

Joined: October 2003
Post Count: 10,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB

I road ride a lot and I do my best not to antagonize drivers, simply because "I am right". Being right while some a-hole runs over me won't get me any brownie points. Frankly I feel like hiding under a rock when I see bikers taking the lane and holding up traffic.

You use the fact that you have a choice. This thread is about taking away that choice.

Now on Mondays.

Tags

Other Threads

Recent Reviews

What Barking Bears Want

Got Facebook?

Already a User?

Create a New Account

Recent Discussions

Recent Reviews

Recent Wikis