4 Questions

I find turning the feet to be usefull in bumps and in powder. And in the park since there you have to suddenly change were you are going and you twist your skis sideways when railing and in the half pipe at the lip you need to turn back down again. But Im also not consiously steering when I ski normally since I try to carve most of the time. Note that its hard to distiqunishe between what is turing your feet and what is not especially if you are not aware of the movements involved. Unweighting, unwinding and hip rotation kind of blends in.

BTW, does turing the feet in the air qualify as steering?

I think the majority of spinning done in the air is powered by the upper body... at least it is for me - which would be upper body rotation. ...Assuming of course you're talking about "tricks" and not actual skiing...

Not in my book,,, that's pivoting.  Steering involves twisting skis that are weighted.   

The man with all the answeres , thanks.

A little, tipping, a little inclining.  It does'nt really matter all that much when steering.  It just matters that the skis are not flat.

+1

I used it a couple days ago and my students totally understood. They are making nice smooth turns utilizing steering.

MasterRacer,

yes it does, and that is exactly what never happens for anyone that tries to carve a turn, it is simply skidded. The ski will never hold the edge that precise and follow through to one point only.

Thanks.

While a carved turn may not exist in the absolute sense (the edge passing through a single point in space), it does occur in principle. The 'pseudo carved' turn that leaves a pair of grooves in the snow is a close representation of the absolute and has a distinctly different feel for the skier than a skidded turn. The carved ski travels through the snow creating the grooves and is supported by snow that has structural integrity, whereas in the skidded turn, the ski is skidding on the surface of the snow, scraping away the surface.

A single common point may not be passed through for the 'perfect carve' to exist, but the sensation and the source of the resisting forces are different between skis that cut through the snow leaving grooves and skis skid and scrape across the surface.

My point being that you can avoid skidding along the surface and carve through the snow. The carved turn that leaves grooves is a completely different creature than the skidded turn. There is, I admit, a fine line separating one becoming the other. All it takes is a slight imbalace of weight forward or a release of some edge angle or a build up of centrifugal forces that exceeds the groove's ability to suppor the skier.

When defining a carved turn as one where the edge passes through a single point in space, I allow for the point to shift slightly because the point that the ski passes through with the tip will not be the same point in 3D space as the waist and tail pass through because the snow is compressed as the ski passes through the snow due to centrifugal forces, but when the groove is examined, it is a continuous arc in the snow.

Edited by MastersRacer - 11/27/09 at 2:04pm

The physics are not that complicated. 

When your ski cuts a groove in the snow, what its actually doing is cutting a "shelf" in the snow, upon which the base of the ski sits.  If this shelf is at an angle of 90 degrees(or less) to the angle of the resultant force vector coming from the skier, then the ski will sit on the shelf without slipping sideways out of it.  If that angle is greater than 90 degrees, then the ski will slip sideways out of the groove. 

If this shelf is very deep (ie, a deep groove), then the ski can slip a fair amount before coming completely out of the groove.  When it comes out of the groove, that is when actual skidding occurs.  

Harder snow obviously doesn't get as deep of a groove/shelf, but its also a very solid shelf providing your edges are sharp enough and that you have pressured the outside ski enough to actually cut one.  Softer snow is easier to cut a shelf, maybe even a deep one.  However, the consistency of the snow will vary a lot, in terms of how solid that shelf will be to support your pressure without caving in.  A bigger shelf is more forgiving.  Different kinds of snow pack down in different ways under a loaded ski that is digging a groove through it.  Simply put, sometimes it will provide a shelf that comes close to being able to arc you and sometimes its going to cave in a bit under load.

Skidding is when the ski from our perspective is scraping instead of slicing.  There is no question that we feel something happen that is different.  You feel a distinctive feeling as the ski breaks out of its groove (slides off the shelf).  This could be from sliding off the shelf or from the shelf caving in under load.

This can vary anywhere from a nice smooth butter spread to a downright chatter as the edge seeks to re-establish new shelves in the snow with its edges.

Can a pure arc be found?  Absolutely.  For all practical purposes you can definitely attain situations where the shelf will hold you on an arc'd line without slidding off the shelf or the shelf caving in.  It may or may not be for the entire duration of the turn, but it can be experienced for sure and anyone who has felt it knows the difference between that and when the ski skids.

Getting back to steering, I think that the twisting component of steering is one that will not be too useful most of the time for anyone racing, perhaps a bit in SL, but don't quote me on that.  Twisting the ski, can twist it off the shelf I mentioned earlier.

In my book it is absolutely an essential skill for all mountain skiing.   Not over-steering, but subtle, controlled, steering-by-twisting.  It does not take very much steering angle at all to have a tremendous impact on the turn radius.  Over-steering can lead to even more skidding and even to the point that steering will be compromised.  That is why mastery of this subtle skill is important if you plan to use it.

For the record I do not like classifying steering as only twisting.  I think this loses sight of other components which should be blended into the movements.

If I were racing, I would be trying my hardest to steer without twisting and twisting would only come as a last resort.  As it turns out, when I recreationally ski, I like to ski fast and I like to feel my skis carve, not skid.  So, I also try to avoid twisting my feet as much as possible when I recreationally ski as well.  However, there are AMPLE times when I still call upon it as needed to get more steering and/or skidding out of the skis then will be attained without it.

Rick,

I don't have four questions.......I have one.

Where do you teach skiing?

I like to think of steering as a twisting of the ski, a component of turning the ski (what I would call turning, you would call steering, BTS, if I understand you correctly). I would say you can tip a ski to turn it, decamber a ski while tipped to turn it more, steer the ski to invoke varying amounts of skidding to turn the ski as well as pivot the ski to actually start the turn, then just ride the skid around. All of these activities can be blended to form an infinite number of turns. It is probably likely that almost every recreational turn involves at least a small part of each element.

I agree whole heartedly with you about the desire to carve while racing as well that steering is just an element of turning. I have been teaching two new skiers and the way I'm asking them to turn is to let the ski go flat between turns, start to drift down the hill, than add tipping. What they achieve probably involves some twisting at some point, but that they are utilizing the sidecut to initiate in large part is my desire. When I free ski, I try to do what I'm telling them, however I don't get as much skid as they do because I'm going faster and applying more pressure, thus obtaining reduced and sometimes no skidding angle.

Racers want to reduce loss of speed so want to reduce skid which provides less energy to the desired path than skidding. The stivot, a now essential and accepted racing move, is a perfect example of how the initiation can be skidded, yet with good technique, proceed into a carved turn at the right point. Of course the key is to get the skid angle to eventually match the direction you want the ski to be when you get it to carve. With the way race skis hook up it must be done carefully and accurately.

It is refreshing to hear that there are those that accept that a non-skidded turn (albeit it not a physics lab perfect carved turn) exists! It is painful to hear people say that all turns incorporate some skid. What we call railroad turns or carved turns are not skidded. I fully accept that what many people call carved turns aren't, but that doesn't preclude that a turn without skidding doesn't exist. The substantially different feel of the turn compared to a skidded turn is evidence enough for me that a different ski/snow interaction is taking place.

Just a few points to help:


Decambering of skis is achieved by tipping them.  Hence, no you cant tip them, then adjust the amount of decamber independtley...these are not mutually exclusive.  

Also you cannot "Steer" and invoke pivoting.  Pivoting is a component of steering...these are also not mutually exclusive concepts.

I am going to take my stab at the four questions now. I haven't read the first page in a long time so this response isn't influenced by other's answers to the questions. I am taking part in this discussion to help identify the terms and learn the varying views of interested (and interesting) persons' thoughts on this topic. I have learned some things that I have found useful in my understanding and that I can use in my coaching.

I added my own question as it will help reduce the need to explain my thoughts on steering in the remaining questions and to elliviate any ambiguity of what I understand steering to be.

0) What are the pros and cons of steering?

Pros: steering, the use of leg rotation, can be usefully applied to all turns except those that are not skidded in any way. Steering is not the only way to manage the amount and angle of skidding, however, it is a simple and easily learned skill. It often happens spontaneously withoug instruction.

Cons: none; it has applications for all skill levels under all conditions.

1)  What are the pros and cons of being countered while steering?   

Pros: at higher speeds, counter permits more mobility to affect lateral balance through movements of the upper body, separating those movements from the lower body.

Cons: hard to teach counter to newbies, while steering is almost automatic. Keep it simple, teach the really essential stuff that can be built upon like tipping and steering

2)  What are the pros and cons of staying square while steering?

Pros: It eliminates having to teach counter, a difficult thing for newbies. Being square is intuitive.

Cons: Reduces the ability to separate the upper and lower body actions which are essential as speed and slope pitch increase.

3)  When is "skiing into counter" a good option, and when is it not?

Skiing into counter is useful at high speeds or while skiing close to the fall line with quick turns. It permits you to lead down the hill and allow your skis to track away from your upper body in anticipation of high G forces and the need for high edge angles and lateral balancing. At lower speeds, particularly, for beginners, it is an unnecessary complication to the learning process.

4)  Is rotating, or skiing rotated, while steering ever a useful practice?

Rotating, regardless of steering or not, is only useful when all other methods of turning the ski are insufficient to acheive the desired turn size and shape. It can be handy in powder when your skis are bogged or you can't steer them sufficiently with just your legs. As a recovery move, it can help pull the lower body back under you such as when your outside ski looses grip and drifts. I would consider it a last option to make things happen that aren't going to happen otherwise. It both of these examples is is useful to include some unweighting of the skis so that the rotation can be more effective and less will be required.

Quote:

I actually don't even like to use the word "steering" AT ALL.  I almost never use it with anyone I am teaching.  The reason I don't like that word is because its a term that can mean almost anything you want it to mean to you at the time.  Its going to come down to you explaining to the student or other person exactly what YOU mean when you use the word "steering".  And the next teacher they have or person they communicate with may not mean the same thing either.

To me "steering" simply means to adjust the shape of the turn you're on.  Primarily that is going to be with tipping and twisting movements, but less immediate results can also be obtained by fore-aft balance moves, angulation, etc.. 

I say, if you mean "twisting", then say twisting.  calling it steering as a way of making it sound more acceptable just clouds the issue for everyone.  Twisting is twisting, its one way to effect the so called "steering".  

  Using descriptive "everyday" words is always better from a teaching perspective. 

Understanding and learning comes from seeing and communicating with an open mind. Often it relies on intuiting the intent that is masked in the execution and imprecise words. I spend a great deal of time reviewing and revising my posts with the intention of absolute clarity. I frequently miss the mark.

I was trying to find out how you got on our new inside edges. So you start your turn with edge locked skis and then you lean forward and try to get your ski tips to dig in deep and make the tails skidd. Then you keep on leaning forward and aft through out the turn to keep your radius at what you want. Sounds very very strange to me. My bet is that you create a skid angle and then you pressure the tips. This will increase the firction imediately and not after the tails of the skis brake out of their edge locked carving. So what you do is you turn your skis a bit at transition. Or you fuel your skidding with hip rotation (this is a truly a crappy way of skiing on pist).

Absolutely!

With my athletes, I do use everyday words and words that I know are understood by those I coach. I like to say 'point the knees into the turn' and 'point the knees in the direction you want to go', but in another thread the use of 'knee pointing' was lambasted as it was interpreted that saying so was not addressing the point which is that the skis need to tip. Yet 'point your knees into the turn', 'more your knees into the turn',  every day words, are clearly understood by my athletes and they also invoke ski tipping and hip rotation.

'Steering' has been very heavily used in this thread. 67 occurances on this page alone. I was attempting to use the vernacular of this thread, more particularly of the OP who has clearly defined steering in this thread.

MR,

The reason some people complained about the knee pointing was because they particularly believe nearly everything in skiing should be initated from the feet.  It was not merely your choice of words that raised their criticism, it was an actual disagreement with you about the movements.  If you still believe those movements should be initiated from your knees, then there is nothing wrong with saying it that way, that is actually the clear way to say it.  The disagreement is not on the choice of words, its on the actual movements themselves.  welcome to Epic.

Steering was used by the OP on this thread and many of us, including myself continued to use the term, apparantly with some of us having our own idea about what we were referring to as steering.  Recently the OP clarified it to mean only the twisting according to him.  The reason we are discussing it as a term now is because now that the OP has clarified that he is only referring to the twisting component, I am not in agreement that this is exclusively what is involved in steering the skis and I want to be sure that everything I have contributed thus far in this thread is not interpretted that way, and also that other readers continue to realize that there are other components available for steering their skiis.  I hope this very couple of posts illustrates how vague this term "steering" is and why it should be used carefully.

MR:

Glad to see you are thinking about this.  Just for the record:

Pivoting is one of 5 skills defined by the CSIA.  Simply put the term refers to the skill of being able to impart a "twisting" force on the skis by rotating the femurs in the hip socket such that you can control the amount of twist, timing, and where the pivot point on the ski is.

It can occour with skis weighted or unweighted..although it is generally accepeted the move is started during the unweighted phaes, although, almost by definition as soon as you start to pivot, the skis become weighted do to the steering angle created, and subequent turning forces generated.

BTS,

Check again...in fairness to Rick he did say "twisting weighted skis" or words to that effect.  So he clearly acknowledges the idea that steering is turning the ski...within  the turn.....which I do believe is fundamentally correct, and universal definition for it.

Thanks, BTS, for the clarifications. I understand the underlying disagreement with 'knee pointing'. I simply believe that regardless of the focus of initiation, the outcome will be the same. I think dogma prevented the realization that I might have a point. I was on snow experimenting with conciously focusing on different means of initiation and not finding substantially different outcomes. To reach a particular destination, you can use different routes.

I just might lurk for a while in the shadows.

Don't give up MR.  Many people on this forum are often in disagreement.  :-)




Ok, whatever.  It was never my intention to question Rick or what his original intention was.  If I have gone on and on for 15 pages with an incorrect understanding of what he originally said, then that is definitely my bad, but I still just wanted to state now, after all that, for the record that BTS does not believe steering to be exclusive to twisting.  I do not like that idea at all.  I think there can be more going on and it needs to be acknowledged.


I'm not sure what you mean here.

I don't agree that it is a universally accepted definition that steering is exclusively twisting of the ski, if that's what you meant.  Incidentally SkiDude, I know you're a fan of LeMaster.  I read his newest book recently and there is not one single place where he refers to twisting movements to steer the skis.  I was on the lookout for it.  It refers to twisting only in the context of pivoting on flat skis, which is not the same as steering.  He does talk about steering, but all of the methods he mentions are the other things, some of which I have mentioned, other than twisting.  He never once mentions twisting as a steering option.  Now I happen to think that Twisting CAN be included in steering and I happen to think that he left it out because its a controversial subject at best and at worst a verboten principle for ski racers.  But what is clear to me is that its certainly not the only component involved in steering, according to myself, according to him apparently as well.  So what exactly is universally accepted?
 

Now where did I ever suggest that the ski must be edgelocked?

No that is not what I meant.  My point was that i think everyone agrees with you!  Just "twisting" would obvioulsy just result in a pivot slip type outcome...which I do not beleive was anyones thoughts.  I was trying to stave off a 10 page debate only to conclude that we were all on the same page to begin with.....


What is universally accepted is that "steering" is simply the ablity to alter the skis path within the turn, while making the turn...ie "turn the ski within the turn".  Or put another way steering is what we do such that we dont just have "park and ride".  There was no deep hidden meaning there....

Incidently I dont have the new book yet, it is on my Christmas wish list.  As for being a fan of Ron...well kinda.  The real reason I know his stuff front to back and back to front is not from him, but rather from the CSIA.  The underlying principles are identical, although there is some variance around terms etc.  I use Ron on this site, because most people have his book so they can check for themselves, most do not have CSIA manuals...plus in truth Ron explains things much clear then the CSIA manual.

On steering...I think of it like this....to me we have pure carved turns on one end of the spectrum....pure skids on the other...everything in the middle is steering.  I suspect Ron (and yourself) is looking at steering to include manipulation of pure carved turns through altering edge angle and fore/aft balance.  Traditionally those skills would have been included in steering, but perhaps not in the context of a purely carved turns....although having said that, I see no reason why it couldn't...probably just a throw back to old straight ski days, and even the early days of shape skis....if my suspicion is true then, of course "pivoting" would not be mentioned within this purely carved turn context. 

If however the book is as you say, completely silent on the pivoting aspect of steering then I would suggest that is a major oversight, because it has such a huge role in most skiing that is done..ie everything that is not pure carve.

[EDIT: Of course you can see the value in looking to "steer" as much as possible by first manipulating edge angles and fore/aft balance and then only using pivoting as a last resort....but to not even mention it...hmmm....sounds suss.]

Either way....if there are things I am missing I am looking forward to getting the book and reading about it.
Edited by Skidude72 - 11/27/09 at 7:09pm

Cool, MR!    When we ski together, I'll show you how I use the this formula on the steeps to help timid intermediates go from doing mega tail tossing and skid defensive survival turns on a pitch, to comfortably linking clean entry, long radius narrow track steered turns.  

Well put.  

BTS,

I'm not quiting.  I'm just going to be more judicious in my involvement in discussions.

My metier is on snow coaching. I was hoping to pick up, and have, methods and ideas that work outside of racing as well in racing. Most of my recent influence and coaching has been with racers.

MR