telemarking vs downhill style when backcountry...why the differences?

 just getting a handle on backcountry (have joined the alpiners club and should have asked at the intro meeting but forgot to) but why the different ski styles in backcountry skiing, i,e the telemarking kneeling down when descending vs the more traditional style of downhill skiing technique? ....is one easier on the knees and/or more efficient?...or is it just a sense of style with the bindings you choose.

feel free to shoot me any links to sites to help with some clarification of both.

cheers
vancouver bc

Find that here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5362339854737035287&ei=R_vsSumNGZ3eqAKlv9H8CQ#

Bob Lee:

woo hoo!...loved that 11 minute video clip (thanks)...so now i know some differences: telemark vs AT skier/ or randonee (francais)

..but a few questions:
1/in the film he says that going up the mtn the telemarkers kick butt over the at skiers...but if you're both unclipped in the heel and are wearing 'skins' what would acct for the difference in speed up the hill?

2/why would one choose telemark style over AT skiing?......is there an advantage over either style for bc backcountry skiing i wish to explore (with bcmc and the alpiners?)...is it the 'culture' factor he hints at vs one or the other?

thanks for your help, btw

Edited by canali - 10/31/09 at 10:35pm

I tried to respond, but I can't

 alpinord...many thanks...what a hoot watching the first one of those 3 caped dudes...lol entertaining for sure.

you know it almost seems telemarking makes descending easier as you're able to kneel down and edge more and lower your centre of gravity better over the ski....or am i totally out of whack in my thought?

yes

did I just bite a hook?

 www.piste-off.com/equipment-and-technical/telemark-versus-alpine.asp

just found this site above in doing a google search....author talks about pros/cons of each style depending on terrain you're on....interesting...

do you agree?

I think you got it backwards - he goes on about how AT skiers stomp tele skiers going uphill, but that's pretty much because the video is a bit old.  In the past, tele bindings lacked the free-pivot mode that AT bindings all have, but many tele bindings have that feature now, although some AT bindings are lighter than free-pivot tele bindings which makes a big difference.  The free pivot allows skiers to skin uphill without having to fight the springs which gives them a much better stride.  


The main advantage to tele style is that it makes you pretty much irresistable to the opposite sex.  The power of attraction for tele skiers is well-documented and a powerful force.  The admiration and attraction people feel for telemark skiers cannot be overstated.  

Other than that (although that's enough for most people), tele is much nicer on rolling terrain and traverses - the always-free heel is very convenient.

Although I telemarked exclusively for many years, I only recommend that people take up tele if they love the inherent beauty and grace of the turn and don't mind taking on something that is significantly harder than fixed heel skiing.  And of course if they want to be a hottie.  Which is all to say that yes, it can be largely about the culture.  

There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same.  However when you get down, people will flock to the tele skiers and ask to bear their children.  

Edited by Bob Lee - 11/1/09 at 8:27am

RE ''The main advantage to tele style is that it makes you pretty much irresistable to the opposite sex.  The power of attraction for tele skiers is well-documented and a powerful force.  The admiration and attraction people feel for telemark skiers cannot be overstated''

tele skier = butt like a ball peen hammer.

I took up tele skiing because I was burned out with alpine. My friends were doing it and it got me into the back country with comfort.

Tele gear is lighter for the most part than alpine gear. In most conditions a competent tele skier can match a competent randonee skier in ablilty to climb and ski. Conditions that I would prefer a fixed heel for are no fall zones (which I avoid anyways) and icy conditions (not much in Summit county). If you are going to go BC in places like Teton Pass, telemark is a very natural way to go. It is easy to tour in the gear, and the conditions, typically deep powder, are a superb for telemarking. You can also alpine turn if you want. I mostly alpine turn when I'm on tele gear so my legs will last the day long, but if I'm in knee deep pow, I'll be teleing.

I haven't gone to the off-piste.com site to read their commentary. I suspect it has plenty of good side by side comparisons. The thing that really sets telemark apart from alpine (since any tele skier worth his salt can make alpine turns on their tele gear) is that you have to have legs (and buns as mudfoot points out) of steel. The telemark turn relies on your muscles, in addition to your skeleton to support you. It is very tiring.

As to the OPs reference to 'more traditional style of downhill skiing technique', telemark turns date back to Sondre Nordheim and the middle of the 19th century. 'Trad' dh skiing was developed in the early 20th century. Two Planks and a Passion is a great book about the history of skiing from the development of skiing by the Chinese many hundreds of years ago to the present. A long but interesting, and information packed, read for anyone that wants to know what skiing is really about and where it came from.

What it really comes down to is variety, challenge and options. Telemark is just another turn that alpiners can't do with their gear.

And chicks dig it.

As a matter of complete disclosure, I ski alpine gear more than I tele because I don't have the strength and conditioning to last on teles like I used to. But there is nothing like cruising along with telemark turns.

MR

And of course there's a somewhat different but no less compelling reaction on the part of men when they see tele grrls down on their knee.  

mudfoot=

Great thread and Funny posts! :-)

From my limited Tele experience and reading,  it seems that whether you drop the knee super low, or alpine ski standing up on your tele skis is a matter of style preference and steepness of terrain.....the steeper the terrain, the more you drop the knee for control and turn emphasis.

Other than that it's all about your bindings capabilities and options. With my Hammerhead bindings, on Tele skis I have many more turn style options. The turn is much more ballet like as compared to alpine. It's hard to describe the satisfaction of a good tele turn. It's like a true dance down the mountain. It's beautiful! I only prefer my alpine gear in the extreme ends of conditions like super icy or deep pow............

Last but not least I don't get hyper about the types of tele turns I make. Some "purists" say only tele turns........I say have fun and mix it up so I do some tele turns and some alpine........some days I adjust my bindings for more heel lift, some days for less........go with the flow and have fun!

+1

 

 so for a complete novice this is why i joined both the alpiners club (vancouver branch) and soon to join the bcmc (vancouver branch)...to be with people who can:
--provide some guidance and go out on trails with
--know which equipment to rent out (as before i invest i've been told to first just try it out via rentals)
--make some new skiing buddies.
--get out and appreciate both a new sport and experience some new areas of our gorgeous province that i normally otherwise would not.

....one final question:
do any of you do BOTH xcountry backcountry  as well as tele and at backcountry with the fatter skis/heavier boots? (i've done classic xcountry and this yr am taking up skate skiing too): i know that sigge's xcountry shop sells xcountry backcountry ski gear.

see link below showing xcountry backcountry skiing a gent on this forum sent to me:
http://telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=57038

http://telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45696

These guys on skate skis in the bc are pretty adventureous. I wouldn't be comfortable that far out on just skate skis. They aren't designed for anything but the groomed trails. For instance, they aren't designed to withstand bridging a stream or a gap in the snow. For light weight back country, I utilize either leather tele boots or my old Scarpa T2s which are very low cut by today's standards. I match them up with old style (from the 80's) tele skis. These have double camber or camber and a half and metal edges. The bindings are simple three pin Rottefellas. If you are interested I can post pictures of my setup.

The problem with this gear is that it isn't very maneuverable or practical in deep soft snow. Its what they used in the day but there is a reason you don't see it out there these days. It doesn't float well, its hard to turn and if you end up bushwacking, 210 cm skis are hard to move around in dense brush and trees. I stick to jeep roads and open meadows on trips I take with the gear. Easy in, easy out.

I also tour with alpine boots and randonee gear as well as sometimes Scarpa T1s and modern telemark gear (K2 Hippie Stinx and Rottefella T7 touring bindings). Feel free to PM me if you'ld like to find out how to skype me and talk about this in detail. Typing is such a drag when there is so much information to share.

MR

Hmmm...seems like Darwin would predict teleskiing to be a successful adaptation in that teleskiers have more mating options and therefore are more likely to procreate.  Anybody done a thesis on this?

I do AT and Tele.  Tele is groovier, AT is easier, a lot easier.  AT is safer in the event of an avalanche because of the releasable nature of the bindings.

Splitboarders are too busy messing around with their gear to have time to explore mating options.

I have a friend who does range crossings in a few hours on skate skis during corn cycles.  He goes alone a lot.  He invited me, but I know I won't be fast enough to finish before the crust breaks down.  It's a very cool niche sport. 

The tele turn has a different feel, particularly in powder.  Personally I think this is in part due to the difference in weight distribution, because it's true even now that the stiffer end of the tele boot/binding spectrum is pretty stiff.  Very few people initially try tele because of the different feel, but it's one reason some people stick with it.

Also the o,p. asked about knee health, yes tele also anecdotally is easier on the knees (ACLs in particular) but has more risk of spiral fractures with the burlier end of the boot/binding spectrum. 

Before or after the Trivers-Willard hypothesis was formulated?

AT/Alpine skiing your weight and balance point are basically on one ski at a time. Tele skiing (when you are doing it correctly) your balance point is between your two skis, so you are not really on one or the other, but a fluid spot with a completely different feeling than anything you experience with fixed heel skiing.

I alpine, tele and AT ski, but have abandoned tele skiing in the backcountry because the variable conditions are handled better with a fixed heel, and also because of the releaseable binding/avalanche issue mentioned above. Tele skiing really has a seductive feel that is very attractive.  I usually start with them for 2-3 hours and then switch to alpine gear at the area when my legs start to tire.  Tele uses a very different set of muscles that take a long time to develop, even for a long time alpine skier.

Noob question;

Does Alpine Touring use alpine boots or telemark boots?

Michael

Alpine Touring (aka Randonee) uses either alpine boots or alpine touring boots. Telemark boots have the 'bill' on front that is incompatible with AT bindings.

The difference between AT and Alpine boots is AT boots are generally lighter, softer (although there is less distinction in this category than before, but a long ways to go) and have vibram type soles with some rocker for easier walking. Some Alpine boots have (recently) begun to incorporate a softer rubber bottom for walking.

MR

NTN tele boots can do anything.  

I stand corrected. No need to duck! ;o)

But can they do it well? I didn't care for the NTN boot Scarpa introduced, it was about as stiff as my 15 Y.O. T2s. And the binding hasn't been a real knockout either.

MR