'True or False???

Here's a technical topic for everybody to think about and discuss.  What do you think of the following statement?

A countered pelvis can't be maintained while leg steering, because leg steering causes the hips to rotate.  For that reason you can't hold an edge when leg steering either. 

Have fun! 

heh heh....

Then a pivot slip must be... be..... carving

Hold an edge! What does that mean?

To me, it's three seperate premises, which I don't believe belong together. It sounds like someone trying to justify their opinion and hoping that no one actually reads it.
The reason given to back up the two outer phrases is, in my opinion, false. Therefore the whole comment is false.
It is entierly possible to twist the legs without rotating the hips. Heck, I'm sitting on a seat right now, merrily twisting my lower legs and my butt cheeks haven't moved.
I can also stand up and twist one leg or the other without moving my hips.
And I can twist both of them without moving my hips.

So, I'm not a physiologist or a ski instructor, but the justification (i.e. "because leg steering causes the hips to rotate.") for the comments is blatantly false. I don't even need to consider what your definition of counter or holding an edge is, because the error is in the justification.

You aren't supposed to be reading stuff over there.

You must be double jointed then. You can move your feet some maybe but the glutous maximus still moves.

Leg steering does cause the hips to rotate.

And if you're fishing Rick, you caught me. Interesting topic as always though.

So, the muscle moves, and the thigh bone rotates in the socket, but the hip bone does not necessarily rotate. (hence the ability to twist your legs while sitting)

Yep, we could call this "skiing into the counter." 

It's probably true we "can't hold an edge" while steering.  I'm assuming here that "hold an edge" means no slippage/ edge locked/pure carve etc etc.  We can use the edge, but ability to carve is reduced in direct proportion to the amount of steering we use.

If somebody can find and post the continuous video of VSP doing his pivot slips (sorry VSP) you can see a perfect example of the hips heading right toward us while the skis move almost 180 degrees right and left. 

Hip rotation is defined as rotation arround a axis in the center of the hips. Earth rotate arround its own axis The moon rotates arround earth but the moon itself doesent rotate arround its own axis. So does the moon rotate or not? Does the hips rotate or not if they are not being rotated arround their own center axis? Still, the hips rotate arround the center of the turn. Even if you dont rotate your hips they are still rotating. Depending on your frame of reference and your definitions.

Lars what is leg steering?

So, am I right in thinking that the VSP video would contradict the statement that the hips must rotate if leg steering is used, thus proving the statement to be false?

OK, so my answer(s) are False and false.

*A countered pelvis can be maintained as long as when you do your pivot slip you don't go back to fully square.

*Not holding an edge has nothing to do with the first statement.  The more you steer the less ability you have to edge. Conversly the more you edge the less you have the ability to rotate your legs.  As you can edge lock wih no counter what so ever the first statement has no bearing on the second statement.

Yes as long as you never get the skis in line with the rest of the body.  So you would need to do a "one sided pivot slip"

If you do a "two sided pivot slip" at "transition" you would not be countered.

false, no reason to go into any detail. Just looks any good skier skiing shorts turns or pivot slips there hips will be down the hill while their legs will be turning from a solid base(the hips)

since the first part is false the second question is nulled but I poses this question to everyone else.

True or false

holding a edge doesnt matter whether your hips are countered or following you skis. true or false.

Not sure what you mean by "doesn't matter". Counter will change the interaction between skis and snow, but you can certainly hold an edge whether you are countered or not.

When I first read this, I thought, "Typical example of a Non Sequitur." As has been pointed out:

1. Leg steering does not cause the hips to rotate. Anyone who would state that it does has an incorrect definition of leg steering.
2. You can hold an edge while rotating your hips. It's not an efficient or preferred movement, but it's possible.
3. The counter of your pelvis is independent of leg steering.

Therefore, the entire set of statements is an amalgam of mischief or misconception.

The hips can not rotate around their own center axis because they are two separate parts of the body. Each has their own pivot point so there can not be a central axis.

ya, maybe not rotate but there is still movement. I don't see how you could be on skis and have your femur rotate somewhat in your hip socket without some movement of the hip it's attached to.

Perhaps the use of "some" makes this a true statement, since eliminating all extraneous movement may not be possible. However, it certainly is possible to ski and have virtually no movement of the pelvis occur although the femurs are rotating in the hip sockets. I've spent quite a bit of time increasing my skill in making this movement while skiing and so have paid a lot of attention to it and am certain that it's not only possible but preferable in many situations.

I believe what tdk6 was saying here is that the hip bones rotate around their center axis without causing the pelvis to shift in relative position at all. The easiest way to see this is by standing on turntables and rotating the legs without rotating the pelvis. For many, this is a foreign movement and takes quite a bit of practice to remove the habit of moving the pelvis while rotating the legs. However, it's certainly not only possible but a precursor to much of high-level skiing.

Forgetting about absolutes...

I would say that it definitely is possible to turn the femurs, or a single femur, in the hip socket without significantly rotating the overall hip.  However its a weak muscle group that is employed to do it.  Therefore a lot of skiers do tend to rotate their hips as they attempt to rotate their legs.  It takes a concerted effort and practice to isolate the legs turning underneath a stable-ish pelvis.

It happens to be a skill that I learned about oh, 30 years ago in a time when we had to have it.  So for me it comes easy.  But I've been to PSIA clinics and watched instructors struggle with it.  Too much reliance on shaped skis.  What I feel is that in order to turn the legs under a stable-ish pelvis, I have to employ counter-acting movements, very proactively.  its not a simple matter of just turning the femurs, even though it may appear that way.

I'm not sure what "counter-acting" movement are, although there are certainly movements and positioning that I can do to make the movement of my femurs far more straight-forward. However, when I have taught this movement for bump clinics, we start with turntables indoors. In that case, we're not using any "counter-acting" movements, are we? When we take it to the snow, I'll often lead them through pivot slips and waltz drills to get a feel for how it works with skis on.

What kind of movements do you add to the mix to counter-act the force encouraging your pelvis to rotate?

Well well well,,, certainly not much debate or misunderstanding about the properties and mechanics of leg steering here on Epic.   everyone!

Leg steering is just what it implies; steering the skis with the power of the legs.  It can be done independant of the pelvis (skiing into counter), or the pelvis can go along for the ride and turn with the legs (skiing square).  You can even rotate the pelvis while steering if desired, into a more countered positon, or a rotated position.  Because the leg steering and pelvic orientation to the skis are separate actions, with separate control mechanisms, we are free to do what we want with the pelvis as we steer with our legs. 

Edge hold when countered and steering?  If by the term "edge hold" we're referring to "carving", then obviously it doesn't jive with steering.  But,,, if we simply mean the ability to hold our position on the slope via edge engagement and not slide sideways as we steer, that's a different matter.  Being able to hold your position and shape your turn while steering has a lot to do with being able to tip the skis on edge and pressure them, doesn't it?  Counter does nothing to negate the ability to tip your skis on edge.  Numerous World Cup photos that have been posted here have long ago proved that.  It's no different with steeing.  Even when just standing on a carpet or slippery floor it's quite easy to tip the feet on edge and steer the legs while the pelvis is countered.  On snow it's even easier.

So with those basic questions resolved, perhaps it would be useful to delve a little deeper into the subject.  Here are a couple more questions for you think about and discuss.

1)  What are the pros and cons of being countered while steering?   

2)  What are the pros and cons of staying square while steering?

3)  When is "skiing into counter" a good option, and when is it not?

4)  Is rotating, or skiing rotated, while steering ever a useful practice?


Work through those and this thread could prove to be a very valuable learning tool. 

Drills like that are excellent to help people discover the counter-acting movements I speak of.  I'm not refererring to any particular single movement when I use that word counter-acting in a very general sense.  I'm not even sure I am prepared to define specifically exactly which muscle groups I am employing in order to counter-act the hip's tendency to want to rotate with the legs, but if you listen to your muscles while doing the turntable thing or while doing pivot slips, you will understand exactly what I'm talking about.  You're employing other muscles, in a seemingly opposite direction of the rotation.  I don't want to call this counter-rotation for a reason, its not simple counter rotation.  Its employment of specific muscles other than the femur turning ones, which provides more of a stable pelvis for the femur to turn in.  

There is DEFINITELY something proactive going on there.  I feel it every time I do pivot slips.  I find it very difficult to explain to other skiers.  And you can see when they aren't employing it how much they will struggle with pivoting their skis and keeping their pelvis oriented down the fall line.  If you watch someone doing pivot slips and seems to drift from left to right as they slide down, they are allowing their pelvis to follow their turning legs and not proactively counter-acting that tendency.

Once you feel it a few times, you know what to do.  


 

Four great questions Rick.

To me this gets right to the heart of the issue.  The only people that I know who can do this really, really well seem to be PSIA instructors--for the exact reason that BTS states.  Steering without throwing the hip around is hard!  Not only that, it feels unnatural to try to prevent the rotation from happening in the first place.

So honest (as in not intended to start WWIII) question: why should I care about leg steering?  Why should I spend days, hours, weeks, practicing this so I can do it like Rick or BTS or VSP when I can shape my turns just fine solely with edge control?  The latter is simple and works no matter what kind of shape I want.  Active leg steering OTOH, seems to run counter to carving movements.  When I carve, I'm trying to manage the rotation that naturally occurs; I don't want more of it.

Once again, my intention here is not to start a debate, tell anybody they are wrong, or question anyone's answer.  I'm just geniunely curious and hopeful that a discussion can be had in the vein of sharing information (rather than a battle for skier's souls ).

Feel free to move to a new thread if necessary.  I'm not trying to hijack, but at least to me, it would be useful to understand the "why" behind steering before the how.

I'm looking forward to reading others' answers to this (as well to Rick's other questions)! I really appreciate your attitude, as well, and am grateful for it.

FWIW, many of the really skilled big mountain skiers, bumpers, and racers I know do this without necessarily knowing that it's what they are doing. I illustrated this to a highly skilled friend last week and she mentioned that she did it all the time but had no idea that it was difficult for so many. She is ignorant of the concepts and physics of skiing, but believe me when I tell you that she rocks when she's rippin'...

My answer to your question is this: rotating the pelvis causes other things to occur that aren't the results that most of us seek. If you rotate your pelvis into the turn ("rotation"), you'll be encouraging your ski tails to break out of their tracks. If you rotate it too far away from the turn ("counter-rotation"), it will become very difficult to maintain your edges. If you ski with your pelvis square to your skis, it's difficult to move your feet (and legs) in ways that will give you the ski/snow interaction you want.

In short, the reason we do it is that it allows us more freedom in getting the ski/snow interaction we want. And that's what really matters.

In an effort to illustrate this, I'll recount a video analysis Bob Barnes did of my skiing a few seasons ago. He showed me how a little "hand flash" (the remains of my old "patrol roll" or "NorAm Flash") resulted in my tails washing out. It was a revelation! Everything is connected, and little causes have effects far away that impact our skis performance on/in the snow.

You had to go there didn't you.  

I don't think it feels unnatural at all.  Its just another skill, part of skiing.  

The reason you should care is because its a skill you use every time you ski, whether you want to recognize that fact or not.  You can do it poorly or do it well.  Practice it to do it well.  If you think you are edge lock carving all your turns, I will just flatly say "no you're not".  When you use tipping movements, though you may not be conscious of it, you are employing rotary movements as well.  All the BPST folks that think they aren't rotating their legs, yes they are.  They might not be consciously thinking about it and that's their choice and I have no problem with that mental choice, but the rotary is happening, you can see it in every video example that exists.

I sure hope this thread is not going to degrade into another silly heated debate about rotary.  Haven't we been through that enough already?

Here is the summary, I can save a lot of flamage for us all:

One group of people feels they should be actively aware of the rotary they are creating to get just the right amount needed for any situation, proactively.  Another group of people feels that the best way to manage rotary is to try to pretend its not there or that their task in life is to eradicate it to a minimum, which in their minds will result in just the right amount for any given situation.   One group creates rotary as a directive.  Another group results in rotary through other means.

That about sums it up.  Two approaches to the same ideal.  We're never going to agree here on which is the correct approach are we?  Myself, I believe that there are certain situations where too much rotary can definitely be applied by method A to the detriment of the task, and there are other situations where not enough rotary by method B will be applied, to the detriment of the task.  To me, its not one or the other.  Everyone is right, some of the time.  Nobody that takes a strong stance on either of these arguments is right all of the time.

But back to the original OP question, which was simply, is it POSSIBLE to steer your legs while maintaining a countered hip.


Edited by borntoski683 - 10/30/09 at 12:48pm

Actually, Geoffda, I'm not PSIA,,, I"m USSCA.  Your questions don't at all seem confrontational, they seem sincere and useful to the discussion.  We're just talking ski technique here, questions and discussion of same provides an opportunity for everyone to learn. 

Being able to control the rotational state of the pelvis, independant of what's happening below, is a crucial skill to possess not only when steering but equally when carving.  I think once we delve into my questions above the answer of why will be pretty clearly revealed.