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Understanding TURNING POWERS

#1
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10/28/09 at 4:46pm
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 Repost  here  in  technique & analysis from  beginner forum for discussion.
  • Joined: March 2006
  • Location: Chicago
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Bud, once you brought it up, please help me sort it out!  It has been more then a year since I am looking into this problem: How to distinguish between “counter rotation” and “slight counter” per PSIA Center Line? And how to generate rotation without “counter rotation”?

 

In your post you have mentioned that it is essential to have some distance between the skis. That probably helps, but I can assure you, that unfortunately, I am very successful in executing classic old school counter rotation with my skis at shoulder width. Something else is missing! I do not understand how to generate ski rotation without counter rotating the upper body! No matter what you say, Newton's Third Law stays in force! I do not drought that it is possible to rotate the ski without counter rotating the upper body - I saw you doing it every day, however it only means that when you rotate your ski you use something else, but upper body to produce that counterforce. Can you explain how do you do it? (Increasing an edge and loading front of the ski is out of the scope for this question, I am only interested in rotation element of the turn at this time)


Stroller,  great  question!

Let's clarify the terms first, counter rotation is basically simultaneously turning the feet left and  the torso right  and is generally accompanied by a down unweighting movement as they both can be created immediately, as  in an emergency stopping action.  Counter  is a broader term which is a position where the feet are pointing one  direction and the shoulders are facing  at  some  angle to  the feet,  more directed  toward  the fall  line.  Looking  at  a snap  shot we may  not be  able to tell  the difference because  we can arrive in a  countered  position  by two  different means.   One can  counter rotate  or one  can ski into counter.  Skiing into  counter involves the feet  turning underneath  a  stable  torso.

So,  now let's explore fulcrum turning or braquage where one leg twists left   against the other leg,  which twists right.   Imagine two bar stools, one under each foot, now turning your feet left and right you will notice this  can be  done without any involvement of  the  upper body.     Now lift one foot or place both  feet on  one bar stool  and turn your feet right and left.  Observe now  the upper body will counter rotate.  This can also be done wearing socks on a hardwood floor or  standing on two sheets of paper on carpet.  With the feet apart we can turn feet without involving the upper body and with the feet together or weighting only one foot we can not turn without counter rotating.   With fulcrum turning  we  are using  one leg to turn  the other leg against.  The equal  and opposite reaction is  between  one leg twisting OUT while the  other  leg twists IN.

Mastering this turning power is an  important  milestone on  the way to expert skiing!  The ability  to  turn the feet below a stable upper body,  the ability to balance on the outside ski of the  turn, and  a  balanced  stance are the  three  key ingredients  to good skiing.

"Rotary Push Off" is how many skiers create turning power and  is a  topic for another conversation.   
 

 "Givin' you the Edge" www.snowind.com Synergy coaching/alignment

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#2
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10/28/09 at 8:54pm
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Pretty good answer, Bud.  I'll offer mine as supplimentation.



Counter Rotation - A way of manually turning the skis.  Generally done at the beginning of the turn, the upper body twists away from the direction of the new turn, and the legs twist towards the direction of the new turn.

Counter-  A position where the pelvis faces towards the outside of the turn.  It imposes no turning forces on the skis. 

Rotation - A way of manually turning the skis.  The upper body is twisted in the direction of the new turn, pulling the skis along with it.

Anticipation - A way of manually turning the skis.  At the end of the turn the body faces down the falline, while the skis point across it. This creates a torque in the pelvis that causes the ski to pivot downhill to join the upperbody the moment the skis edges are disengaged.   

All these techniques have occasional situational usage in all mountain skiing.  That said, Rotation and Counter Rotation are typically the only option domain of the lower skilled skier.  A labor intensive way to horse the skis into a pivoted turn.  For turns that need some aggressive redirection at the start, anticipation is a more refined and efficient way to do it. 

But,,,, most turns don't require a pivot/push intiation.  Most recreational skiers would be well served to make eliminating their default pivot initiation the first order of business.  Replace it with the leg steering Bud described, and make those initations subtle, progressive and smoooooooooth.  A quality narrow track steered turn should be almost indistinguishable from carving arc to arc. 

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

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#3
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10/29/09 at 3:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 Repost  here  in  technique & analysis from  beginner forum for discussion.
  • Joined: March 2006
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Bud, once you brought it up, please help me sort it out!  It has been more then a year since I am looking into this problem: How to distinguish between “counter rotation” and “slight counter” per PSIA Center Line? And how to generate rotation without “counter rotation”?

 

In your post you have mentioned that it is essential to have some distance between the skis. That probably helps, but I can assure you, that unfortunately, I am very successful in executing classic old school counter rotation with my skis at shoulder width. Something else is missing! I do not understand how to generate ski rotation without counter rotating the upper body! No matter what you say, Newton's Third Law stays in force! I do not drought that it is possible to rotate the ski without counter rotating the upper body - I saw you doing it every day, however it only means that when you rotate your ski you use something else, but upper body to produce that counterforce. Can you explain how do you do it? (Increasing an edge and loading front of the ski is out of the scope for this question, I am only interested in rotation element of the turn at this time)


Stroller,  great  question!

Let's clarify the terms first, counter rotation is basically simultaneously turning the feet left and  the torso right  and is generally accompanied by a down unweighting movement as they both can be created immediately, as  in an emergency stopping action.  Counter  is a broader term which is a position where the feet are pointing one  direction and the shoulders are facing  at  some  angle to  the feet,  more directed  toward  the fall  line.  Looking  at  a snap  shot we may  not be  able to tell  the difference because  we can arrive in a  countered  position  by two  different means.   One can  counter rotate  or one  can ski into counter.  Skiing into  counter involves the feet  turning underneath  a  stable  torso.

So,  now let's explore fulcrum turning or braquage where one leg twists left   against the other leg,  which twists right.   Imagine two bar stools, one under each foot, now turning your feet left and right you will notice this  can be  done without any involvement of  the  upper body.     Now lift one foot or place both  feet on  one bar stool  and turn your feet right and left.  Observe now  the upper body will counter rotate.  This can also be done wearing socks on a hardwood floor or  standing on two sheets of paper on carpet.  With the feet apart we can turn feet without involving the upper body and with the feet together or weighting only one foot we can not turn without counter rotating.   With fulcrum turning  we  are using  one leg to turn  the other leg against.  The equal  and opposite reaction is  between  one leg twisting OUT while the  other  leg twists IN.

Mastering this turning power is an  important  milestone on  the way to expert skiing!  The ability  to  turn the feet below a stable upper body,  the ability to balance on the outside ski of the  turn, and  a  balanced  stance are the  three  key ingredients  to good skiing.

"Rotary Push Off" is how many skiers create turning power and  is a  topic for another conversation.   
 


yup...that is pretty much it....but for clarity of Bud's "in" and "out" terms....means in practice that BOTH legs turn either left....or right....ie, one in, one out.

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#4
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10/29/09 at 10:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Counter Rotation - A way of manually turning the skis.  Generally done at the beginning of the turn, the upper body twists away from the direction of the new turn, and the legs twist towards the direction of the new turn.
 

As opposed to turning the skis automatically?  Is that like on a skiing robot?

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#5
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10/29/09 at 12:03pm
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“Counter  is a broader term which is a position where the feet are pointing one  direction and the shoulders are facing  at  some  angle to  the feet,  more directed  toward  the fall  line.”

 

Lets look at the point of transition between 2 turns…At that moment, if you are skiing into and out of the Counter, should your torso be directed towards the fall line totally (meaning perpendicular) or somewhat towards the fall line?

 

Should one pay attention to the angle between torso and ski or torso and fall line?

 

How do you adopt this “turn the feet below a stable upper body” to deep snow? Do you have to use “Anticipation” then?

 

When use of “Anticipation” is effective?

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#6
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10/29/09 at 12:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkiMogul View Post




As opposed to turning the skis automatically?  Is that like on a skiing robot?

 

Manual turning, as in using a self created rotary force to manually twist the skis in a new direction to produce the turn, such as is done when steering or pivoting, rotation turning or counter rotation turning. 

As opposed to just tipping the skis up on edge and letting the mechanical properties of the ski and its sidecut do the turning for you,,, also known as carving.

 And yep, that's how the PSIA Tin Man does it.
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#7
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10/29/09 at 12:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller View Post

 

Lets look at the point of transition between 2 turns…At that moment, if you are skiing into and out of the Counter, should your torso be directed towards the fall line totally (meaning perpendicular) or somewhat towards the fall line?

 

 



Depends what type of transition you're aiming for.  The more anticipated you are in the transition, with your upper body facing down the falline, the stronger the natural tendancy to pivot as the upper and lower body unwind back into directional harmony.  So,,,, if you want to pivot the beginning of your turn, and you want to power that pivot with anticipation, then the more anticipation the better. 

If, instead, you're shooting for arc to arc, then less anticipation makes it easier to avoid having your skis auto pivot on you. 

YOUR SKI COACH  -  Bringing world class skills to the recreational skier

* Instructional DVDs   * Technical Articles   * On Hill Coaching

www.YourSkiCoach.com
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#8
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10/29/09 at 1:05pm
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Are those statements correct?

1.      The steeper the slope the more steering I need to use in order to control my speed

2.      The more steering the stronger the anticipation

3.      Therefore anticipation is effective on the steep slopes (stepper black, double blacks)
 

If above is correct, does this mean that on steeper slope you unavoidably loose (to the some degree) fluidity of transition from turn to turn because of anticipation

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#9
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10/29/09 at 1:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

With fulcrum turning  we  are using  one leg to turn  the other leg against.  [AGREE]

The equal  and opposite reaction is  between  one leg twisting OUT while the  other  leg twists IN. [DISAGREE]

Mastering this turning power is an  important  milestone on  the way to expert skiing!  [AGREE]   
 


 Hi Bud, 

Really like your post.  The part I quoted caught my eye.

I do not believe it is one leg rotating internally against one rotating externally that equates to an equal and opposite reaction. 

 

It think it is that both are "anchored" to the surface - though that "anchor" is often floating vs set in concrete, which makes it difficult for many to accept (example, skier doing pivot slips - steering each leg simultaneously, while sliding down the slope.) 

 

But don't take my word for it, jump up on those two barstools again.  Now internally rotate both legs at the same time, then externally rotate both legs simultaneously, then keep one pointed any direction you please while you internally and externally rotate the other - then switch and do the same holding the other still and rotating the opposite one. 

 

Also, you want to rotate about a point underfoot that is roughly the back of the arch or front of the heel …imagine you have a peg leg that comes to a point and rotate about that point. 

 

The "equal and opposite" is internal between the two contact points, however, it may be difficult feel.  To better feel this, replace one of the contact points with your outstretched hand by grabbing that display rack above the bar, then lift one leg and rotate the one you are still standing on internally and externally (use opposite hand/foot for more effect - and/or stretch your arm out more).  If it is still difficult to feel (because the barstool rotates so freely), hop off the barstools, take your shoes off and do the same thing by holding the bar itself and rotating that foot on the floor in your stocking feet.  


Best, 

Chris

EPICSKI ACADEMY - Unparalleled Excellence!
ESA and the Sports Diamond

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#10
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10/29/09 at 1:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller View Post

Are those statements correct?

1.      The steeper the slope the more steering I need to use in order to control my speed

2.      The more steering the stronger the anticipation

3.      Therefore anticipation is effective on the steep slopes (stepper black, double blacks)
 

If above is correct, does this mean that on steeper slope you unavoidably loose (to the some degree) fluidity of transition from turn to turn because of anticipation

Not always... it depends on:
  1. How comfortable you are with speed in the belly of the turn, and
  2. How much room you have to work with.
So, for example, if you have a very wide, steep run (say Regulator Johnson at Snowbird or Horseshoe Bowl at Breck) and you are comfortable picking up a nice head of steam in the middle of your turns, you could arc turns that would actually have you aimed uphill during transition, slowing you purely by the use of gravity as you move uphill against it, then, when ready, arcing downhill, accelerating rapidly, then slowing in an uphill arc again.

No need for pivot at all.

If you have a very narrow steep trail, it gets more and more difficult to make purely carved arc-to-arc turns without bailing, ending up in the trees or rocks, or ending up in a cartwheel down the mountain.

However, you may find that lots of anticipation (body facing down the fall line, skis facing across it, release those edges and the skis pivot to straight down the fall line, allowing you to simply arc out of the fall line or even smear out of it, bleeding speed with that friction) is a more comfortable technique for that terrain, especially if there are bumps or the snow is hard. Deep powder helps a lot since it increases friction without the requirement of brushing the skis, and allows you to maintain a more arc-to-arc technique on steeper and/or narrower terrain. 

Stephen S. Hultquist
Insatiable learner, Truth seeker, Vocabulary stretcher, Friend
I share my learning through speaking, a book, guiding, writing, and consulting/coaching
I travel a lot. If you'd like to follow my journeys, I'm on Twitter

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#11
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10/29/09 at 1:43pm
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How do you “turn the feet below a stable upper body” in the deep snow? Does that mean that you have to plow with your feet through that snow or there are other approaches to control your speed?  With counter rotation I was getting the power from “unwind” and taming the speed at the same time.  I am talking about situations where arc-to-arc does not provide desired control of the speed

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#12
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10/29/09 at 2:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller View Post

How do you “turn the feet below a stable upper body” in the deep snow? Does that mean that you have to plow with your feet through that snow or there are other approaches to control your speed?  With counter rotation I was getting the power from “unwind” and taming the speed at the same time.  I am talking about situations where arc-to-arc does not provide desired control of the speed

Very slowly and progressively! The turning of the feet is largely a minor aspect of my turns in deep snow, with the angle of the skis and their flex combined with pressure being more the tools that I use in deep snow. After all, you don't want to turn your skis in deep snow (they'll catch and you'll go tumbling!), but rather guide them as they turn you. So, I don't use counter-rotation or rotation much in deep snow any more (although I certainly did previously!). Now, I tip and guide and let 'em run...

Stephen S. Hultquist
Insatiable learner, Truth seeker, Vocabulary stretcher, Friend
I share my learning through speaking, a book, guiding, writing, and consulting/coaching
I travel a lot. If you'd like to follow my journeys, I'm on Twitter

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#13
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10/29/09 at 2:27pm
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I am still at the level where I have to be concerned about speed control (I do not see myself getting over it at any time at all). Therefore, my question either: "How do you control your speed (not how do you turn) in the deep snow?" or "How do you adopt steering to deep snow?"

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#14
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10/29/09 at 2:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post





Depends what type of transition you're aiming for.  The more anticipated you are in the transition, with your upper body facing down the falline, the stronger the natural tendancy to pivot as the upper and lower body unwind back into directional harmony.  So,,,, if you want to pivot the beginning of your turn, and you want to power that pivot with anticipation, then the more anticipation the better. 

If, instead, you're shooting for arc to arc, then less anticipation makes it easier to avoid having your skis auto pivot on you. 

 

Would you say that the more steering I am aiming for, the stronger anticipation should be?

What amount of counter is appropriate for PSIA dynamic turns? open parallel turns?


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#15
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10/29/09 at 3:17pm
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 Stroller, I wouldn't get hung up on how much counter to use in a particular situation.  I also do not necessarily correlate "more steering" to "stronger anticipation".  More steering is not necessarily evidenced by more counter.  Well maybe it depends on how you define "more". 

If you want more powerful, though slower, steering, widen your stance and flex your legs.  Think ratchet and socket on a bolt.  If you want quicker, yet weaker, steering, narrow your stance and stand taller.  Think screwdriver on screw.

Understand that anticipation is, for the most part, a stretching of the leg and core muscles in preparation for the next turn.   As noted in someone else's post, if you intend to make a longer radius turn less anticipation release is needed or warranted, while in preparation for a shorter radius turn more stretching of these muscles is advantageous. 

Experiment with this concept by skiing three short turns into three long turns back into three short turns and so on.  Take note of what happens when you transition from long to short and then from short to long turns.  Notice the relationship between your feet, hips, and shoulders.

 "Givin' you the Edge" www.snowind.com Synergy coaching/alignment

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#16
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10/29/09 at 3:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post





 Hi Bud, 

Really like your post.  The part I quoted caught my eye.

 

I do not believe it is one leg rotating internally against one rotating externally that equates to an equal and opposite reaction. 

 

It think it is that both are "anchored" to the surface - though that "anchor" is often floating vs set in concrete, which makes it difficult for many to accept (example, skier doing pivot slips - steering each leg simultaneously, while sliding down the slope.) 

 

But don't take my word for it, jump up on those two barstools again.  Now internally rotate both legs at the same time, then externally rotate both legs simultaneously, then keep one pointed any direction you please while you internally and externally rotate the other - then switch and do the same holding the other still and rotating the opposite one. 

 

Also, you want to rotate about a point underfoot that is roughly the back of the arch or front of the heel …imagine you have a peg leg that comes to a point and rotate about that point. 

 

The "equal and opposite" is internal between the two contact points, however, it may be difficult feel.  To better feel this, replace one of the contact points with your outstretched hand by grabbing that display rack above the bar, then lift one leg and rotate the one you are still standing on internally and externally (use opposite hand/foot for more effect - and/or stretch your arm out more).  If it is still difficult to feel (because the barstool rotates so freely), hop off the barstools, take your shoes off and do the same thing by holding the bar itself and rotating that foot on the floor in your stocking feet.  


Best, 

Chris
 


I stand corrected!  I like your def better.

 "Givin' you the Edge" www.snowind.com Synergy coaching/alignment

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#17
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10/29/09 at 3:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller View Post

I am still at the level where I have to be concerned about speed control (I do not see myself getting over it at any time at all). Therefore, my question either: "How do you control your speed (not how do you turn) in the deep snow?" or "How do you adopt steering to deep snow?"


Controlling speed in powder is the easy part!  Patience to let the turn progress is the difficult part for many.  

 "Givin' you the Edge" www.snowind.com Synergy coaching/alignment

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#18
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10/29/09 at 3:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 Stroller, I wouldn't get hung up on how much counter to use in a particular situation.  I also do not necessarily correlate "more steering" to "stronger anticipation".  More steering is not necessarily evidenced by more counter.  Well maybe it depends on how you define "more". 

If you want more powerful, though slower, steering, widen your stance and flex your legs.  Think ratchet and socket on a bolt.  If you want quicker, yet weaker, steering, narrow your stance and stand taller.  Think screwdriver on screw.

Understand that anticipation is, for the most part, a stretching of the leg and core muscles in preparation for the next turn.   As noted in someone else's post, if you intend to make a longer radius turn less anticipation release is needed or warranted, while in preparation for a shorter radius turn more stretching of these muscles is advantageous. 

Experiment with this concept by skiing three short turns into three long turns back into three short turns and so on.  Take note of what happens when you transition from long to short and then from short to long turns.  Notice the relationship between your feet, hips, and shoulders.
 

Do you think anticipation used in small to medium radius dynamic turns makes you loose rhythm and flow to some extend?


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#19
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10/29/09 at 3:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller View Post

I am still at the level where I have to be concerned about speed control (I do not see myself getting over it at any time at all). Therefore, my question either: "How do you control your speed (not how do you turn) in the deep snow?" or "How do you adopt steering to deep snow?"

To be clear, I have been answering your questions in terms of how I do what you're asking, not necessarily how you or anyone else might do it, since I thought that's what you were asking. In this answer, I'll be more generic...

Deep snow provides its own slowing mechanism. If it's deep enough and your skis sink in it even a bit, the snow will slow you down. I've been in conditions where I could aim my skis straight down the hill and not be at all concerned about speed.

This aspect of speed control increases when you're turning, since the build up of pressure under your skis as they are tipped and you are compressing it creates even more resistance to speed. Decreasing the turn radius will help, and this is where your rotary skills come in. Again, progressively and gently guide your skis into a tighter turn. Note that this is not an invitation to try to "spin" your skis or rapidly twist them. That's just not going to work in deep snow and will get you into far more trouble than you want.

Gently, progressively, guiding your skis. That'll key what you need...

Stephen S. Hultquist
Insatiable learner, Truth seeker, Vocabulary stretcher, Friend
I share my learning through speaking, a book, guiding, writing, and consulting/coaching
I travel a lot. If you'd like to follow my journeys, I'm on Twitter

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#20
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10/29/09 at 3:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller View Post




Would you say that the more steering I am aiming for, the stronger anticipation should be?


 

We're at risk of running into terminology difficulties here, stroller. I'll try in this answer to overcome that. 

Anticipation (body facing downhill at transition time) powers a pivot.   A pivot is a quick/aggressive redirecting of the skis downhill during the transition, before edge engaged turning actually begins.  Turns can be started with a pivot,,, or not.   

Steering is what happens later, through the rest of the turn.  Steering is manually twisting the feet such that the skis turn.  With steering, you can create as small a radius turn as you desire.  Much smaller than is possible when carving. 

Steering also has a skidding component to it.  In other words, the skis are not pointing the exact same way they are moving.  The larger the angle of divergence between the direction the skis are pointing and the direction they are traveling (The Skid Angle)  the wider skid track you produce as you go through the turn, and the more speed you dump.  It's an excellent tool for controlling speed on steep groomers.  It's not as useful in steep powder, because skis don't like skidding sideways in that stuff,,, they turn into a virtual snow plow, and you run the risk of getting pitched over the handle bars. 

Other tools for controlling speed on steeps are turn shape.  The smaller the radius, and the the larger the degree of turn, the slower you go.  These tactics work very well in powder.

When skid angle, radius and degree of turn don't provide enough speed control there's always the pivot to fall back on.  A pivot can completely eliminate the top of the turn acceleration phase.  The pivot will work in powder, but depending on the depth and heaviness you may need to up unweight to get your skis out of the snow to be able to pivot them. 

A pivot, followed by a wide track steer is the ultimate speed control tactic.  Doing that you can ski a steep pitch at a crawl.  Kind of a boring way to ski in most circumstances, but it's always available to us for those times we feel the need to really back it off. Again, wide tracking is not a good powder option. 

All these speed management tactics are covered and taught in detail in my Basic Edging DVD.  They're foundation skills that every skier should develop if they want to ski the entire mountain in control and comfort.  And they're a very needed prerequisite (along with basic balance skill training) to learning to carve.  Without the ability to quickly modify speed and direction of travel, as these basic edging skills allow, carving can become a very intimidating and dangerous endeavor.   

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#21
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10/29/09 at 3:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller View Post

I am still at the level where I have to be concerned about speed control (I do not see myself getting over it at any time at all). Therefore, my question either: "How do you control your speed (not how do you turn) in the deep snow?" or "How do you adopt steering to deep snow?"

Finishing the turn, turning across the fall line, is a key ingredient of speed control.  In loose snow the idea of getting the weight back has gotten lots of people into a lot of trouble.  You have probably talked about all of this, but here is my $0.02 worth.

With the added resistance of loose snow weight on the ski may go back millimeters, not inches.  If a skier is too far back, the ankles straighten up and loose their flex, negative things will happen here. 

The straighter ankle reduces the ability to edge a ski (carving is gone), the ability to twist or pivot the foot is also greatly reduced (that would be pivoting and steering).  With these physical capabilities reduced or eliminated, turn completion and speed control are tough, the skier is running out of tools to turn with.  Rotation is about the only turning force that is left for a beginner or intermediate skier, twisting the body in the direction the skier wants to go.  Our skier is now riding the tails of his skis (in the back seat) leaning into the hill (on the insjde ski), very few good things happen from this position especially in soft snow.

If a skier feels much pressure against the calf against the boot, the skier is probably sitting back, or if he can not see your hands within the field of vision same story.  Turning forces become a point of discussion not fact for our skier and and he should consider heading for a flatter run to get it all back together.  If this is still not working to our skiers satisfaction a lesson could be in order. 

The forces of evil are winning and skiing is just not as much fun as it should be.

Growing old is mandatory.  Growing up is optional.

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#22
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10/29/09 at 10:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller View Post




Do you think anticipation used in small to medium radius dynamic turns makes you loose rhythm and flow to some extend?

 

 


Not at all stroller!  To the contrary.

 "Givin' you the Edge" www.snowind.com Synergy coaching/alignment

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#23
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10/30/09 at 2:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Manual turning, as in using a self created rotary force to manually twist the skis in a new direction to produce the turn, such as is done when steering or pivoting, rotation turning or counter rotation turning. 

I normally don't like to weigh in on these threads, but your verbiage leaves me scratching my head.  I understand exactly what you're talking about, but your terminology is confusing.  Using terms like "manual turning" and "self created rotary" creates confusion.  "Self created rotary force" implies that there is such a thing as rotary forces created by someone other than the self.  If I'm not creating rotary force, who is?  Is there some sort of external rotary force being exerted on my skis?  Is there a rotary genie that lives in the mountains and causes me to turn?

Also, you seem to imply that "rotation turning" and "counter rotation turning" are caused by rotary force.  Isn't it the rotation or counter rotation in those turns that is creating the turn?  I mean, sure  you could use rotary while making a rotation turn, but isn't that blending two unrelated movements together?
As opposed to just tipping the skis up on edge and letting the mechanical properties of the ski and its sidecut do the turning for you,,, also known as carving.

Here, you seem to set up your concept of "manual turning" as the opposite of carving.  And you define carving in a very disturbing manor.  You call it tipping the skis up on edge and riding them around.  And I'll agree that doing so will produce a carved turn of a sort. But doesn't the act of tipping the ski on edge happen manually?   How about taking it off edge?
And yep, that's how the PSIA Tin Man does it.

Now I don't necessarily love the PSIA's take on everything.  But I've read through their literature and talked with many instructors and I've never heard them extol riding on the edges of a ski as the way to carve.  In fact, the PSIA tends to talk about a blend of skis which always includes some form of rotary movements.  But maybe you're referring to some specific tin man?

Like I said, I get what you're saying.  But maybe you want to talk about  passive versus active turning.  And leave out unnecessary word like self created.  It will help make your point more clearly.

TSM

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#24
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10/30/09 at 2:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkiMogul View Post

I normally don't like to weigh in on these threads, but your verbiage leaves me scratching my head.  I understand exactly what you're talking about, but your terminology is confusing.  Using terms like "manual turning" and "self created rotary" creates confusion.  "Self created rotary force" implies that there is such a thing as rotary forces created by someone other than the self.  If I'm not creating rotary force, who is?  Is there some sort of external rotary force being exerted on my skis?  Is there a rotary genie that lives in the mountains and causes me to turn?
Yes, there is. And that genie is a combination of the forces acting on you from outside, including the skis dynamics as it bends and unbends and those that the sidecut introduces as well as the forces of gravity and the snow.

Stephen S. Hultquist
Insatiable learner, Truth seeker, Vocabulary stretcher, Friend
I share my learning through speaking, a book, guiding, writing, and consulting/coaching
I travel a lot. If you'd like to follow my journeys, I'm on Twitter

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#25
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10/30/09 at 5:37pm
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TSM,

The 'Tin Man' Rick refers to is PSIMAN (or PSIman), a purely mechanical device which 'skis' successfully by ski/snow interaction alone. 

This little guy doesn't have the ability to be 'active' at rotary input to its skis. Momentum down the slope causes the proper ski/snow interaction which drives his turns.  If you search these forums you'll find many threads about him including some video.

.ma
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#26
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10/30/09 at 6:48pm
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He meant PSIman:





Stephen S. Hultquist
Insatiable learner, Truth seeker, Vocabulary stretcher, Friend
I share my learning through speaking, a book, guiding, writing, and consulting/coaching
I travel a lot. If you'd like to follow my journeys, I'm on Twitter

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#27
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10/31/09 at 6:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller View Post

Are those statements correct?

1.      The steeper the slope the more steering I need to use in order to control my speed

2.      The more steering the stronger the anticipation

3.      Therefore anticipation is effective on the steep slopes (stepper black, double blacks)
 

If above is correct, does this mean that on steeper slope you unavoidably loose (to the some degree) fluidity of transition from turn to turn because of anticipation


I have a little different take on this. I thhnk of anticipation as a tool for gaining or maintaining speed rather than an effective tool at controlling speed.  Trying to use anticipation as a tool for controlling speed resutls in excessive work and braking actions.

speed control comes with using gravity to your advantage and shaping the top of the turn where speed is slow. Anticipation makes the skis turn quickly down the fall line decreasing the length of time it takes to make a complete turn. Decreasing time over a given distance is the definition of increasing speed. Want to whip out a bunch of turns on a steep slope, use anticipation.  Want to decrease the speed and increase comfort use patience and slow turning into the fall line at the top of the turn in order to shape the turn and increae the time it takes to complete the turn.
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#28
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10/31/09 at 3:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSkiMogul View Post


I normally don't like to weigh in on these threads, but your verbiage leaves me scratching my head.  I understand exactly what you're talking about, but your terminology is confusing.  Using terms like "manual turning" and "self created rotary" creates confusion.  "Self created rotary force" implies that there is such a thing as rotary forces created by someone other than the self.  If I'm not creating rotary force, who is?  Is there some sort of external rotary force being exerted on my skis?  Is there a rotary genie that lives in the mountains and causes me to turn?


 

Yes, in carving there are rotary forces other than those directly created by you which cause your skis to turn.  It's not you doing it, it's purely the design properties of the skis that cause them to turn when you tip them on edge. 

If you were on a dead straight ski, no sidecut or camber, and so stiff it had absolutely no capacity to bend, you could tip it up on edge as high as you like and unless you physically did something to twist them into a new compass direction they would just keep going straight. 

That's not the case with shape skis.  You can tip them up on edge and they turn all on there own.  No need for you to suppliment with any self generated twisting force. 

I 



Quote:
Also, you seem to imply that "rotation turning" and "counter rotation turning" are caused by rotary force.  Isn't it the rotation or counter rotation in those turns that is creating the turn?  I mean, sure  you could use rotary while making a rotation turn, but isn't that blending two unrelated movements together?
 


Sorry, you've lost me here.  Rotation and Counter Rotation are 2 distinct types of rotary skills.  They can't exist without the use of rotary.   Not sure what you're seeing as unrelated. 



Quote:
Here, you seem to set up your concept of "manual turning" as the opposite of carving. 

Not sure I've ever actually used the word "opposite", but it's probably a useful way to look at it.  Manually turning the skis is done by leg steering, rotation, counter rotation, anticipation, pivoting,,, stuff like that where we use our muscles to create and impose a rotary force on the skis which twists them into a new compass direction.  In carving no such manually created twisting force is imposed on the skis.  They turn all on their own.



Quote:
And you define carving in a very disturbing manor.  You call it tipping the skis up on edge and riding them around. 

This shouldn't really disturb you,,, it's exactly what carving is. 




Quote:
And I'll agree that doing so will produce a carved turn of a sort.

Of a sort?  There is no other sort.  Don't confuse this with parking and riding on a low edge angle.  Any turn radius within the design parameters of the skis can be produced by simply tipping and riding the sidecut.  You just tip to the angle that produces the turn shape you want.   


Quote:
But doesn't the act of tipping the ski on edge happen manually?  

Yes, it absolutely does.  But that tipping of the ski on edge does not impose a twisting force on the ski that in-of itself causes the ski to twist into a new compass direction. 

Think of it this way:  When you drive a car turning the steering wheel does not actually turn the car, it simple directs the car to turn itself.  Same thing when carving a ski.  Tipping the ski up on edge directs the ski to turn itself. 

Steering a ski is different.  In steering you're actually turning the ski yourself.  In the car analogy it would be like 5 burly guys picking up the back of the car and tossing it to the side.  They actually turned the car, it did not turn itself. 




Quote:
Now I don't necessarily love the PSIA's take on everything.  But I've read through their literature and talked with many instructors and I've never heard them extol riding on the edges of a ski as the way to carve.  In fact, the PSIA tends to talk about a blend of skis which always includes some form of rotary movements. 

I can only hope you misinterpreted what they were telling you, because riding on a clean edge is precisely what carving is,  Any blending of steering into an arcing ski degrades the quality of the carve. 

My suspicion is that the blending with rotary movements they were talking about had to do with passive rotary.  Passive refers to the rotational movements we make that does not acutally impose a twisting force on the skis, such as the pelvic rotation that allows us to manage counter.  Counter is a crucial element of upper level carving.  It allows us to effectively manage our lateral balance, especially as edge angles grow.   




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#29
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10/31/09 at 10:13pm
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What are the differences between turning "powers" and turning "forces"?





I have always understood a turning "power" as an internal muscular effort and a turning "force" as an external occurrence acting upon the skis (ie: centripetal, centrifugal, friction)

thoughts? 

 "Givin' you the Edge" www.snowind.com Synergy coaching/alignment

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#30
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10/31/09 at 10:58pm
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Bud, I've always differentiated by saying "external forces" or "internal forces".  External being those we have to deal with, such as gravity, centrifugal/centripetal,,, and internal being those we create ourselves via muscular efforts, as in rotary and pressure applications.  I do so because in my mind a force is a force, regardless of it's orign. 

I'm fine with someone differentiating in the manner you have.  As with any of this tech speak, the speaker just needs to communicate to his/her listeners how terms are being used.  As coaches that should come natural to us because we should be doing that all the time.  It's too bad we can't create a universal language that would be sport wide, but it's split with so many factions I fear it's impossible.  Perhaps we just need a ski language czar to dictate commonality. 
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