WC ski technique. Impressions from Soelden GS opener.

Well the WC season is underway & we've got our first glimpse of this seasons racers.  I wish there was more video of these guys & gals training or freeskiing cause when they get into the battle mode it can get pretty radical.  I am #1 a freeskier (like to ski all conditions, all the time), but love to learn from the best athletes in the world, by watching them race & ski.

This is a carry over from another thread that was locked.  My hope is that we can get some dialog going without having to refer to any particular systems.  When I watch WC athletes, I see skiers from many different nations & coaching systems, yet when it gets right down to it the outcome on the track is very similar as far as basic technique goes.  It seems that tactics, experience, conditioning & athleticism play a huge role in separating the podium from the also rans.

I saw lots of stivots on the steep, I saw some inclination, I saw some stepping, I saw some phantom moves,  I saw some extended entries, I saw some retracted entries, I saw some A-framing, I saw some crossunder, I saw some crossover... etc. 

There are some consistent top runners, & we saw it this weekend.  I was especially impressed with Denise Karbon's first run.  What is it about her skiing that makes me like it?  What are the technique differences that these standouts possess?

Karbon:


Karbon:


Vonn:


What are some of the commonalities among the racers, & what are some of the differences in their basic techniques? 

What do the top few have that the others do not?  

What of their skiing can we take away & use daily?

Ligety:


Blardone:


Ligety:


Cuche:


To my eye all of these photos show racers in great strong positions against their skis, but sometimes how they arrived there was wild!

Discuss...

Thanks,

JF

Edited by 4ster - 10/27/09 at 1:56pm

Hi 4ster,

Nice pictures, aren't they beautiful as poster?
But like you said they are a static image and nothing much can be read from it. A video is really the only way to see what happens in a particular turn or run.
The difference between the better guys is physical condition which allows them to play out their skills better than the rest. In a flat section they look sort of the same, but even there you can see differences that sometimes cause me to shake my head.

I edited this picture of Poutanian out of the OP because it is a different phase of the turn, & I don't feel it fits with the others.  It can still be part of the discussion though.



JF

Even with still photos, there is a difference between the best & a regular Joe don't you think?

Besides conditioning, tactics & experience, are there other differences?

What are those differences?

This is an open discussion & not directed at anyone in particular.  I don't know that I know the answers to my own questions, although I have some ideas.  Again, what are the similarities?  And what are the differences? 

Speculation is fine.  There are a lot of people on this site, with a lot of experience.  What is the real meat of what makes a top technical skier?

Thanks,
JF

4ster, I watched the whole race.  All great skiers, but the difference between the winners and the also rans was clearly in the line taken, timing and placement of the pivots, and ability to make the feather from pivot to carve almost instantaneous. Karbon's first run was gorgeous on all counts.  So aggressive with her line, yet subltle and efficient with her movements, and clean on her edges. 

The slower girls were too high in their line, pivoting too soon, drifting sideways waiting for the time to engage for too long, dumping speed all the while.  Watch for those things and you'll soon find you can call the clock. 

Well you can brake that down to many little fractions of errors and differences and each race and discipline will bring out more errors that have to be addressed. For that you have "Dartfish" as a great tool to filter that out. (Can I get away with that ad?)
Fact is that errors are going to be made by everyone in a WC race. (Hey otherwise they would not need us coaches right?) But like I said physical strength is a big factor that will give you the edge, they allow a tighter and cleaner line than some others that have to go the longer and more flat route, also the inexperience will determine how you approach the gates, does one go direct and loose it all in the turn exit, or does someone go tight and takes all the speed with them.
And really if the basics are not clean on a regular slope, well they will really haunt you in a race course.
One of Maier's big reason why he was that good from the the start on is that he worked in his dad's ski school for many years. All that demonstrating helped him to master the basics in higher speed extremely well.
That is why every skier in the Austrian team nowadays has to become a Ski Instructor as well as getting his/her coaches License.

This forum has changed to last years, but since you ask if there is another difference between conditioning, tactics and experience I would only add skills and well equipment may also be a factor, too. That covers a lot I would say.

Thanks for the input Rick & Simplyfast.  I think that is great that the Austrians are required to have both the teaching & coaching background.  Although this thread doesn't really seem to be taking off, I think the idea of honing the basics was the feedback I was hoping to get from people.  In my view, if you look at the pictures I put up in the first post you will see basic similarities in the stance & balance of the skiers.  Even though these guys & ladies are at the highest level, there are many things the average skier can take away from their example.  When we watch them at full speed in a race it looks beyond the scope of mere mortals, but if we strip it down to the bare basics there is much to be learned.  I really wish that there was more video of them in training & freeskiing.  Part of the reason that ski racing is dying in the US is that the general public does not see it as anything that they can relate to.

Thanks,
JF

What he said...watching the guys, what I saw was that Cuche made out like a bandit doing the old "survive on the steeps, win on the flats" concept.  "Surviving" is actually a little passive, what Cuche did was ski a clean, round line, conserve his momentum, and didn't make any huge errors.  I thought Ligety and some of the other guys tried to go too direct at the top of the steeps, and, in trying to slash their way through the top gates, wound up being low and having to ski back up the hill in the 4 or 5 offset swing gates just before the bottom of the pitch.  Ligety has super quick twitch muscles and made fewer line errors than the other guys who tried to cut off the line, which is why he was 2nd instead of being out in the weeds. 

It's interesting that technique is starting to converge, at least through the top 30 or so, and the difference seems to be conditioning, innate athleticism, and tactics.  Stay tuned, Levi is next...

Yep, I agree.  Some additional thoughts:

- I think How the Racers Ski is beaucoup relevant, and I agree that it's too bad that Joe Skier doesn't see racing as relevant.  Yep, there are a ton of good skiers outside the race course, but there are some way bogus ones, too.  All the twin tippers I've been seeing at Loveland lately are pretty good at doing switcheroos...but most of them are waaay in the back seat, and really don't have much of a clue when it comes to using their edges.  There's always been this theory that all the really good all-mountain skiers or Skicrossers (Jeremy Nobis, Shane McConkey, Daron Rahlves, et. al.) came from a race background.  I think all that says is that they came from a good fundamentals background, because there obviously ain't no way you're going to even make the finish in something like the Soelden GS, let alone beat the other racers, if you're not solid. 

 

- I think the basics of what the top WC racers are doing isn't that complicated, and has been known for some time.  Ron LeMaster wrote an article some time ago in Ski Racing where he was talking about somebody's skiing in terms of the fundamentals, and what he essentially said was "If this sounds like Warren Witherell 25 years ago, it is.  Our equipment has changed, but skiing really hasn't."  Your balancing act is the overall skill, and the triad underneath that is steering, edging, and pressure control, which is what it always has been.  Doesn't mean it's easy to exhibit these skills at the level of a WC racer, but what they do is pretty straightforward, and, as you note, it's what we all ought to be paying attention to.

- Having said all that good stuff, there's definitely a range of effective behavior.  LeMaster did an interesting thing a couple of years back where after showing that everybody has to ski according to physics and anatomy, which is that there are variations, and they all work.  For example, he showed some sequences of the Canadians, who tend to ski much the same, as a team, and tend to ski taller and squarer than some of the other WC athletes.  Similarly, he showed how Daron Rahlves skis with relatively little counter, Bode tends to ski with a lot.  Since the two of them finished 1-2, and then reversed the order, in the BC Men's DH a couple of seasons in a row, I guess that says that there is more than one way to skin a cat. 

One of the most interesting things that he said was when he showed us a sequence of Anja Paerson and one of Katherin Zettel...I think, or if not, it was somebody who had a very slight body type compared to Paerson.  As Ron pointed out, Zettel tends to finesse the turn, whereas Paerson just charges, full out, from one turn to the next.  Why do you think that is? He asked us.  I started off on 'Well, obviously, they have very different body types, and Paerson is a much more powerful athlete, so of course it makes sense for her to ski a little like a bull in a china shop, whereas Zettel..."  Ron essentially said, yep, that could be true...but he also thought it's a personality thing.  Paerson just has a very straight ahead, let's go for it, the shortest distance between point A and point B is a straight line, so let's just let 'em buck and see what happens...

 

Something to think about...

 

 

Denise Karbon has the cleanest, most progressive edge change I have ever seen. Her patience and composure is remarkable. 

 Her patience and composure is remarkable. 

When you see skiers of this caliber it sends a chill up your back at speeds they go.

Well if you look at this picture, the first thing right away is to be noticed that she uses a "lazy inside ski" meaning the "scissors" she is making causes the inner ski just to skid and therefore slows her down instead of actively leading into the next turn and supporting the edge contact of the skier. Not really a great parallel stance. But who knows something caused her to give up the clean stance because she had to slow down, lost balance or......?
Again it is a shot in a given moment where this error happens......priceless.

Thanks for sharing.

4ster,

On Sunday I attended a regional PSIA-NW conference and the keynote speaker was a Greg Needell (www.alpineraceconsulting.com).  Greg has quite a resume so far, and has coached most of the current American WC skiers. 

At the keynote he played some footage from Soelden and made some comments.  He specifically brought up the topic of what are the attributes that is giving the top 7 gives consistent results from race to race under many different conditions.  He talked about the fact that the US ski team is currently lacking a depth of talent due to a poor underlying skill base.  Yes a few tremendous athletes such as Bode and Ligety have gotten their on their own through utter talent, but overall, the depth of talent is limited.

He spoke about how the guys that come back over and over to place high over and over again all have certain skills they have developed and are using, he gave us his list of top 7 WC guys, but I can't remember the list right now other than Ligety is on it.

I think he primarily discussed GS.  In any case, some of things he pointed about as being key skill points of the consistent top guys:

1. At the completion of a turn, the skiers are standing onto the LTE of the uphill ski, often lifting the downhill ski into the air as they take weight off it.  This transfer of weight to the new outside ski is happening VERY early and initiated onto the LTE edge of the uphill ski to start the next turn. This is visibly happening in all of the consistently top guys.  He also talked about extending that uphill leg earlier.  The good guys are getting onto that leg early and standing on it, the earlier the better.
   
2. The top guys are all "trying" and thinking about arc-to-arc every turn.  When they don't arc-to-arc its considered a well thought out compromise situationally, but their underlying training is to perfect arc-to-arc.  He feels that in the past a lot of USSA kids have been focusing too much on practicing their stivots to get down courses that have been set so tightly or whatever and many of them have not developed good arc-to-arc skills because of their over emphasis on stivoting.  He feels that the top guys grew up practicing arc-to-arc and that is always their goal at all times, even if they have to occasionally pivot and set.  Their mind is focused on trying to achieve arc-to-arc.
3. The top guys are not moving so far to the inside on turn init, they are being patient at turn entry.  They do not establish big edge angles early in the turn.  They have their biggest edge angles in the later stages of the turn.  He says a whole generation of racers are hucking themselves too far inside now and they've gotten addicted to that feeling of going weightless and let the skiis catch up.  But it gets them in trouble.  The guys that keep getting podiums and top spots over and over again are establishing strong connection with the snow early, by moving to the outside (with their CoM) early and letting the angles build during the turn.  As a side note he also mentioned that the people that tend to want to get early big angles and dive bomb into the turns are the ones that seem to have a lot of high side wrecks and injuries.
4. 4 - He feels they have been working on some of these skills in up-n-coming racers and that the next generation of WCers coming on the heels of Ligety are going to surpass he and others in what they can do because they have been getting back to a better set of core skills.  And he feels the depth of talent is improving.

That's all I can remember right now.
Edited by borntoski683 - 10/29/09 at 8:17pm

I don't know what gate this is, but I'll bet she is doing it on purpose.  She is low in her line---look how far from the gate she is.  We used to get higher by stepping up----now skiers, Paerson and Schild in particular, shift weight to an uphill ski at the end of the turn and let to hook uphill to a higher line.  The step motion is still there, but the weight shift is opposite of what we used to use.  Next turn I'll bet she was higher, and on the outside edge real early.

BTS,
Your post puts a huge smile on my face !  I would imagine Svindel & Raich are at the top of that list on the mens side.  Too bad he had difficulties, but it was obviously a very demanding course.

This is exactly the response I was hoping for.  I secifically selected the pictures I posted because they show some of the top racers in perfect form, with balanced pressure over the outside ski at the crux of the turn.  Yes, they are only moments in time but they had to be doing something right to all arrive there.  To my eyes the common denominator is classic angulation.  Hips/pelvis functionally countered, level shoulders & flex in the outside leg.

Raich:


This probably doesn't work so well in the long run:


Thanks,
JF

Makes sense.  I agree especially with #3.  You don't have to get the biggest angles, or get all of the turn done, in the first 3rd of the turn.  #2 is really interesting, too.  I see what he's saying, which is that even though, situationally, you can't ski pure arc to arc, especially on something like the steep pitch at Soelden, but you ought to be trying to be skiing as close it arc to arc as possible, and not rely on stivoting.  LeMaster did a really interesting thing last year when he showed that the best stivoters (Bode and Svindal were some examples) often used a stivot just to dump speed in the transition if they were coming into the turn too hot, then went back to running straight, then started the turn with a clean carve rather than try to stivot into a carve...good stuff...


 

At the Keynote, Greg showed a video segment of how Ligety handled one particular gate where it transitioned into a steep section and he specifically used a stivot there, intentionally.  Its not like he was stivoting because his arc wasn't holding.  He stivoted in order to set himself for a line that would make it possible for him to do the next couple steep gates as cleanly and purely as possible.  

So yes, the racers are having to pivot and stivot because of the course design, strategically.  But the name of the game is to arc every possible second that you can and knowing when and how to stivot when necessary, but NO MORE than necessary.  Strategically in order to maximize clean arcs and fast lines.

The point wasn't that pivoting and stivoting isn't a skill that is needed.  Because it is.  His point was that too much focus has gone into that in the past and many of the racers have not focused enough on arcing and looking for arcing opportunities.  His opinion is the the top guys are looking for every possible opportunity they can to arc through the course.

That second racer shows that success and disaster is very close to each other. Last year there was that discussion in this forum when I said that inclination is considered an error. But again of course you need to have it happen to enter into a turn.
So how do you make this clear in an early age of what to do? I use the "forward downhill lean", most of the time I would not even mention it.
The inclination is simply an error. That way I can clearly distinguish success and error.

This is precisely what the Middlebury ski team was working on it GS last season (been skiing with a coach who used to coach there, and is still good friend with the head coach). Great post.

BTS, all I can say is:

Through pure athleticism, Bertoud was able to stay in the course & get 15th place!  Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.  You are right it is an error & he could pull it off, but most mortals would end up injured.  I doubt it is something that he practices.


Makes sense, distinguish it from leaning in.  As far as the stivot goes, it has become a necessary evil on today's course sets.  To try & get the skis to bite & arc out of a stivot like these guys do, again requires super strength & athleticism.

Many of today's big mountain chargers have adapted a smear turn which to me is a relative of the stivot.  The modern design of fat & rockered skis make this turn pretty easy to do in soft snow & has its place in adjusting line & speed in difficult terrain.  My problem with this is many of them use this smear as their "go to" turn & have lost any semblance of good basic technique in their skiing.  They haven't got a clue when it comes to skiing packed snow.

JF

Quote:


This I would not agree with nor did I get the impression that Greg was trying to say that at the keynote.  The stivot or smear or any kind of technique that INTENTIONALLY leaves the arc and tries to come back to it in such a way as to minimize speed loss is most definitely a specific technique that needs to be practiced and mastered.  It is NOT an accidental result of trying to arc and simply not making it.  It does not just come naturally.

In fact Greg gave an example, as I said, where Ligety very intentionally stivoted into a turn in order to setup the next three or four gates in such away that he would be able to more cleanly obtain arc purity.  He mentioned something about exercises where they let the skis pivot in the middle of the arc and then get back on the arc.  VERY DIFFICULT TO DO.  Not accidental.  Very intentional and very well practiced.

An intentional stivot and arc-non-purity, are not the same things.  arc-non-purity is what happens when you try to arc and can't make it.  You probably will see the results in the later stages of a turn.  A stivot is what you do proactively, usually but not always while entering the turn, with full knowledge and consent that you're giving up a bit of arc time in order to adjust your line.

They are still doing those when necessary and VERY intentionally.

The point Greg was making was more about the fact that in the past 10 years a lot of people got kind of obsessed with those techniques and took it a little too far, thinking they need to pivot and stick almost every turn with lines going straight at the gates.  His belief is that the consistently top guys are more of the frame of mind that they are seeking every opportunity they can to attempt to arc and only using stivot type moves situationally.

Edited by borntoski683 - 10/30/09 at 10:14am

I  like what i've read from you all so far.   This is a great topic and can be taken to extremes, and often is by coaches, races and dedicated ski instructors.   The last post by BTS outlines the differances between the "ideal" and the "real" quite well.    From my experiences with current US team coaches, the technical ideal they are training to is exactly what BTS describes from the quoted lecture.  This is very evident when watching these athletes train out of gates...
...when they are practicing the ideal.

The reality is that courses are set to be hard, so they have to master verious recovery techniques or techniques that can dramatically change line ("arc to arc" is fast but limited) when the course or their earlier decisions don't cooporate with the "ideal"

Again, I would like to see more of this.  There is a short clip that shows up here on Epic from 2005.  There is another short one that was linked recently of Palander skiing outside the gates.  I really like this clip even though it is a training course I think she exhibits the basics to the tee:

Are there others?  Anyone got any links to WC skiers freeskiing?

After Stenmark retired, there was a Japanese produced video they made of him freeskiing in different conditions.  I would love to see a modern version of something like that.

JF
 

Yeah I mean the equipment today is really designed to bring more pleasure to the mass. And I am for that, I love "my" sport to be shared with as many as possible and I see all of us as a big family.
At the same time it also has made it possible for more athletes to brake through in this sport. It used to be really difficult for the coach to explain and for the athlete to understand and feel what one tried to teach him.
Now on the down side, the equipment allows some of us old guys to still crank it down wild and go up to speeds where we may have no more business to be with. And the same thing goes a bit for the hobby skier as well.
So like you have noticed, it has become easier to "cheat" yourself down the hill AND feel like a hero. Also, there are some videos around this forum that show demos on nice cushy snow. Nice and convincing but put them on a hard prepared Slope like they use it in the WC then you know they are on their schnauze before they even started a turn.

Yes absolutely right, that stivot as you call it is part of the technique and it is applied when the speed is too high (steep hill) for the turn radius that is set in a particular course. There is no time to setup and finish a regular turn.
In Soelden you absolute need it and there are a few more courses like Kranjska Gora and Adelboden where you will see that too.

 I see, well my point is that if you show me this picture and ask me to analyze this skier then my answer would be similar again, unless you ask me if I like that pretty suit.
There is just no way knowing what happens before and also after, therefore you just cannot read much out of it.

If they do that on purpose then it would be tactically not the best maneuver cause your angle of attack becomes too flat and you'd loose speed and time.