Best approach for improving my skiing

Hi Everybody,

I'm going to make a concerted effort to improve my skiing this year, but am having trouble deciding on how to go about it.  Lessons are expensive enough that I can't afford to just try everything and see what works for me, so I'm hoping you might be willing to help me narrow down my list of options.

Me: 28, male, reasonably athletic, fairly aggressive.  Skied once at age 5, once at 15, and pretty consistently for the past 2 years.  Took one never-ever lesson at 5.  Tight or steep trees and more than 8 or so moguls in a row are where I currently notice problems (though I'm sure my technique sucks on green groomers, too).  My primary goal is to use skis as transport for mountaineering, so I care a lot more about being able to survive varied conditions on suboptimal gear than I do about having flawless technique on groomers with ideal boots and heavy skis.

The options from which I'm trying to choose:

1) Wander up to lesson desk, schedule private, pray
Pros: individual attention, convenience, if the lesson isn't great I'm only out ~$100, possibility for regular lessons from the same instructor to continue improving
Cons: finding an instructor who's a good fit seems to be challenging, I don't like the idea of supporting the way ski schools cheap out on paying their instructors by giving them my money

2) ESA Stowe
Pros: well-known instructors who seem to be very well-regarded, instructors are presumably well-compensated, meeting new people to ski with
Cons: expensive; inconvenient; if the instruction is like a lot of the technique discussion in the forums, I'm going to have trouble getting much out of it; not sure the goals of most attendees are similar enough to mine that I'll get a good value here

3) Call SkiClinics.com, schedule private clinic, ask for recommendations on somebody closer for more regular follow-up work
Pros: well-known instructors who have skied everything I'd ever need to, individual attention
Cons: expensive?; mildly inconvenient; instructor might get annoyed at wasting his time on my crappy skiing, which could be improved by a lesson with any random high school kid

4) Spend the money on a trip to Colorado, ski with friends, work on mileage
Pros: fun, mileage seems to be important, yard sales provide great feedback, lots of ski time for the money spent
Cons: inconvenient, might not be so great for improving technique

What do you all think I should do?  I know everybody here loves ESA, but from what I've read here and elsewhere on the web, I'm not sure it's well-aligned with my goals.  This will be my first real foray into ski lessons, so I'm hoping those of you with more experience might be able to offer some guidance.

Thanks, and I apologize for the length!


Dan

5)  http://esa.epicski.com/events/2010/snowmass/

The bottom line is, you don't know what will work for you until you try it. I wouldn't write anything off until you have a reason to do so. Opinions are opinions. Some people benefit from one specfic approach or learning environment but not have much luck with another.   
 
I have never been to an ESA but the instructors seem to be highly regarded and the instructors credentials are(demo team members, ski school heads etc) obviously better than what you will find from an average clinic or lesson. Many here also seem to be happy with the results. As far as the cost, it's not any more expensive than a multi-day clinic you would find elsewhere. I am not pushing ESA on you and have no affiliation with them, but it's worth considering at least once, if it's within your budget. I wouldn't just write it off because you heard someone somewhere say it wasn't alligned with their goals. 

Do you learn best in groups or individually? What type of interaction do you prefer with an instructor? Until you try various approaches, you won't find your niche. Peronsally, I benefit most from private lessons and get a little frustrated when in a group learning envronment. That can be expensive too. Quality instruction is always going to cost money, regardless of the venue. What can you do? Nothing really. This can be an expensive sport. That's just the way it is.
 

ESA Stowe would be a great start for you, in that you need to develop sound functional techniques that will apply to not only groomers.  

As your goals are clear, you will need to spend as much time off piste as possible in the long run.  Going out west would certainly help that.  I agree that ESA Snowmass would be great due to conditions later in the season and the variety of terrain at Aspen.

The way I approached this (and it wasn't the fastest way) was with minimal lessons and a LOT of mileage.  I am finding now that if I had focused more on my use of modern techniques earlier it would have greatly accelerated my learning pace.  Private lessons are by far the best if you can find the right instructor and afford a series of them.

So the best approach (but most expensive) would be to find a high level certified instructor and take private lessons with him or her for a few weeks, then work on what they taught you for a while, then do something like ESA Snowmass, or an Steep and Deep clinic later in the season.

Ski at least 3, preferably 4 times a week, even if some of those are only parts of days.  In order to really develop the muscle memory to do ANYTHING you can't just do it a lot twice a week.  My goal is to never go more then 1 day in a row without skiing - 2 max!

Good luck!

Holy quick responses, batman!

To answer a few questions:

1) I've decided to spend an initial increment of $1,000 this season towards lessons, so ESA Snowmass is a bit more than I'm looking to commit to at this point.  If I go to ESA Stowe, it eats up approximately my committed budget in one weekend.  If I'm impressed enough that I decide to commit more, I'm okay with that.  I'm just looking for a bit of an easier entry than the price of a trip plus a clinic.  I don't have anything against ESA; it's just that it's not a trivial amount of cash for me, so I want to do my homework first and make sure it's a good fit before mailing a cheque.

2) With past experience in other things, I've found I learn best individually, when an instructor can beat me like a rented mule and tell me to suck it up and scrape myself off the ground when I screw up.  I also tend to ask annoyingly detailed questions about the body mechanics involved with stuff which don't always go well in group lessons. (in a past life I was a dance teacher, and which muscles created a specific movement was key)  Thank you very much for asking this question, MojoMan--it was something I had neglected to consider.

3) SMJ--I like the idea of working with a consistent instructor, and my initial commitment could get me a bunch of lessons throughout the season.  You work at Berkshire East, right?  You guys have the best prices around on privates--would you mind PMing me the name of an instructor there if you think one might be a good fit for me?

Thanks,


Dan

Make sure you get an instructor you enjoy working with. Opinions and reccomendations will be a good starting point but you need to make the final decisions after you have first-hand experience. YOU are the one who will be taking the lessons. Try a few different instructors and just don't go with the first one, unless you find everything clicks. I have had reccomendations for instructors that people rave about but we never clicked and I didn't enoy the style.  IMO, the best instructors for me tend to be older, seasoned individuals who love the sport. They have very little ego and have great personalities. A lot of the younger instructors I have worked with tend to be cocky and arrogant and demand you do things a certain way. The older ones are wise enough to know there is more than one way to skin a cat. 

Also, credentials alone are only one piece of the puzzle, IMO. An instructor may have a resume that includes being an ex-Olympian, etc but I am not training to run Olympics and the Olympics does not train you to work with people in a teaching environment. An instructors ability to teach and impart information in a productive manner is much more important than their level of skill,awards, accolades etc.. IMO, of course. Everyone has their own criteria to select instructors.

In short, there are so many pieces to the puzzle of what makes a good student/instructor relationship that you should not simply base your decisions on one factor. Personalized ski instruction is very expensive and you owe it to yourself to shop around and not just grab the first thing that is reccomended to you.

  

 I agree with everything you said MojoMan.  Good thing about Dan is he has a lot more focus then most students, both in knowing what his goals are and in knowing something about his learning style.

Certainly will make any recommendations he gets better, assuming the person doing the recommending is both perceptive of him and of the choices.  

It is very personal.  I've worked with more then a 1/2 dozen fantastic trainers and have learned from all of them, but some work much better with me then others.  Some give too much information, some don't do a good job of evaluating me and what I'm getting and what I need.

Teaching is as much an art as a skill, and few truly have the gift, so finding someone who's strengths meet your needs is key. "The rocks in your head fit the holes in mine" my mother used to say.

Just my opinion:  ESA offers THE best instruction that you can easily get access to in America.  You could go to lesson after lesson for the entire season and come nowhere near the skill development that you would get from an experience like this.

With regard to group and individual lessons, all of "your" analysis needs to be curtailed and the instructor needs to move through skill development.  Over analyzing and excessive delays are not the hallmark of an effective coaching session.  Excuse me if I am being rude or too blunt, but this is important.  A good instructor will not wallow in excessive talk.  Being in a group setting is exactly where you need to be.  It will help you practice restraint get you to observe and listen...help keep the flow of the lesson moving.

The ESA coaches are more than skills specialists, they are expert teachers and if you let them teach I am confident you learn.  Learning to ski is not just about technical stuff.  It is experiential in nature and ESA is not about endless skill analysis.  At this level I believe that the group plays a huge role in providing that experience.

In closing, don't let your lesson be limited to analyzing skills, you will miss the opportunity to learn how to ski.

ESA would be a phenomenal opportunity technically and to see skiing in the big picture.

I agree with quite a bit of what Paul just said, in your original post you say: "I care a lot more about being able to survive varied conditions on suboptimal gear than I do about having flawless technique on groomers." that's cool and all, but to ski difficult snow in tough places you first need to be able to ski. learning fundamentally sound technique is where you need to start if you don't want to hit a dead-end in your development.

As for suggestions, I'd look up Dean Decas at Sugarbush, he'll be there for the first 1/2 of the season, he spends the second 1/2 ski mountaineering in Chamonix... he might know what's up with where you are looking to go with the sport.

Having attended an ESA I think his budget restraints are keeping him from spending his whole wad on a few days of instruction when what  he really needs is a series of lessons with time to work on the basics between lessons applying the mileage needed to assimilate new movement patterns.

Look at local options that include the best pool of instruction you can get yourself to weekly. Have a half day l private lesson with an instructor that is a level 3 and ask him what would benefit you the most. Getting into an affordable multi week group or similar structure with a private coach. Private coaching is much more expensive but a very useful tool if you can afford that but group lessons done properly would set your table with all you can handle and still administer to the group's needs also.

 I think you should read Whiteroom's post again just to make sure you saw it. What you want and what you need may not be the same thing. You need to learn how to be in balance standing on your skis. The easiest place to do that is skiing on some groomers. You're going to need some of that. I have a small stake in it I'll admit, but I think ESA Stowe is one of the best values in ski instruction you can get. The cost of the clinic is less than a single at private lesson at many resorts and I do think you'd get more out of it. Also, don't get the idea that ESA Stowe is all about "green groomers" it isn't. If I had to guess, I'd say 80% of the students never saw a green groomer last year unless it was on a runout back to the lift. Most of what I saw was bumps and steep skiing.

What I really want is for a coach I trust to tell me what I need, because if I  knew, I'd already be doing it.  If he tells me to spend the rest of the season snowplowing my way down the bunny hill, that's exactly what I'll do.  I'm not one of those guys who thinks he's $DEITY's gift to skiing while he hacks his way through the trees.  I know I suck--that's why I'm committed to paying somebody to help me fix that.  I apologize if I've given anybody a different impression; I should've realized as I typed those lines how they'd be perceived.

This is mostly a bang for the buck question for me, given my circumstances and goals.  Thank you for the additional perspectives, and Whiteroom also for the suggestion of Dean Decas.  I'd listen if he sent me to the bunny hill.

Cheers,


Dan

Just a suiggestion, but if you haven't already, you should have a serious boot fitting session before lessons. Good-fitting boots make a whole lot of difference in terms of being able to do a lot of what you are being taught. If you don't ave a good boot setup, you might always be stuck in a rut, rregardless of what lessons you take.

Personally, I would spend money to make sure my boots worked correcly before spending a lot on lessons. A lot of your problems or frustrations might stem from bad boots. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think the ESA packages include some kind of boot fitting session.

 Dan where do you live? Where do you ski now? Are you already doing mountaineering and want to add skiing to what you already do? Have you already been ski-mountaineering?

Here is some free advice, so take it for what you paid for it..

If bang for the buck is the all and everything you may consider looking into a collage or community collage program in your area.  You may not get the best quality instruction on the planet, but it will get you: time on snow, an instructor giving you movement analysis, drills to work on, someones skiing to emulate, and often some of the lowest cost ski programs in the country.  If the instruction does not work for you, just blow off the lesson and go skiing you may still be ahead of ticket prices.  (I have a soft spot for these programs, took them twice.  First time as a smart assed freshman, and flunked; three years later ran a program and gave myself an A.)

Several have mentioned that you may want to consider some of the non technical aspects of skiing, me too.  How is great, but why is fascinating and gives our flavor to our sport.  You can read up on Weems', 'Sports Diamond', for free here @ Epic.  If you like what you read, consider his DVDs', they may help a lot with the mental and the technical parts.

 Bang for the buck:

1. Video your skiing and post it up for review.
2. Listen to advice and dedicate practice time on hill.
3. Repeat till expert.

It's not perfect, but its pretty good, and it's almost free.

Check this link out.www.yourskicoach.com/  and do what onyxjl says after you buy this instructional dvd set. It's very  good stuff and you will  be sure to  improve your skiing with some work on your own.

I also read your $1000 budget.  Without question, no doubt, hands down the best bang for your buck is to join an adult race program.  You should easily be able to find one for much less then $1000....AND that will be for the WHOLE SEASON!

Benefits:

Constant coaching all year long...no weekend or 1 hour wonders can come even close, period.
You will meet great people to ski with and learn from...all year long
Race programs also tend to  have the best coaches....

AND solid race technique will improve your skiing mountain wide.

It is a no brainer.

There should be lots of programs in your neck of the woods....

PS: Be wary of the viral marketing that plagues this site....

Doesn't sound like he is there yet.  A racing program would be great since it would be in a group setting.  You need a minimum level of skill to be in a setting like that.

Dan, here is another option for you to try out. I'm not sure where in MA. you are but if you are fairly close to Nashoba in Westford maybe look into the instructor training course. I did that over 20 years ago and I'm not sure if it is the same now but it was early in the season, 1st 2 weeks of Dec. I think I did not pay or maybe $100.00. You got from it what you put in it. I went every night, and all day on the weekends. They mostly focused on skiing with some teaching. It turned out to be a great workout to get ready for the full season. I eneded up gettingn hired there but you don't have to be an instructor just take it for some skill building and time on snow. You could link it in with SkiDudes race suggestion and join the adult race league there on week nights and then go skiing at the bigger mountains on weekends. Oh I can help you with this part:


2) With past experience in other things, I've found I learn best individually, when an instructor can beat me like a rented mule and tell me to suck it up and scrape myself off the ground when I screw up.  I also tend to ask annoyingly detailed questions about the body mechanics involved with stuff which don't always go well in group lessons. (in a past life I was a dance teacher, and which muscles created a specific movement was key)  Thank you very much for asking this question, MojoMan--it was something I had neglected to consider.

Good luck

I live in central/western Massachusetts, pretty much smack in the middle of the triangle you'd make by connecting Springfield, Northampton, and Worcester.  The closest lift-served skiing is an hour and a half or so away, which makes the logistics of skiing after work difficult, though I am looking into the local options for earning turns which may be doable after the days start getting longer again.

I get around New England pretty well, though most of my days are in southern VT or NH.  I get some days in Maine every year, and am hoping to get up to northern VT more often this season.  I don't have a home mountain, so I tend to ski where my friends happen to be on any given weekend.

As far as mountaineering in general goes, I'm in the learning-required-skills stage.  When there isn't snow on the ground, I climb rocks, and have been building skills there over the past few years.  I'm hoping to hook up with some friends for an introduction to climbing ice this winter.  I got certified in Wilderness First Aid this spring.  The skiing came into it when I was reading Mark Twight's book--he recommended skis for their efficiency when traveling over snow, so I added it to the list of stuff I should learn. (who knew it would be so much fun?)

I've done some very light backcountry skiing so far, and have a friend who's interested in doing a bunch later on this season.  At this point I'm more comfortable skinning up than I am skiing down, which I'd like to change.


I can just imagine the heckling now..  Seriously, I might try this.  Thanks for the idea!


The adult racing idea sounds intriguing.  I'm pretty sure I suck too much for that at this point, and the logistics right now would be challenging, but that might be something I could work towards for next season.  The cost-effectiveness argument here is definitely compelling.  Thank you for the suggestion!


I'll look into the video training options suggested above, as well.  I like the idea of college-related discounts, too.  I'll ask around and see what schools nearby have to offer me as a mere taxpayer.

As far as bootfitting goes, I'd be willing to try it again at an ESA.  I had a pretty bad experience with it early last year, but was able to resolve the problems on my own, so my feet are at least happy again.  I'm not sure I'm ready to blame my boots for my lack of technique yet. :)

Thanks again for the help, everybody.  It's currently looking like I'll put together a combination of a bunch of these, and hopefully inspire bystanders to cringe a little less as I slide past.


Dan

ESA Stowe would be a great start to the season. The instruction you get is top notch and would give you technique and tactics to work on all season.

I would also like to add skiing well is getting tons of mileage, IMO 40-50 days a season is the bare min to becomes a true 'expert" level skiing, with 100 days min to be among the best on the hill. The mileage though should be the proper thing, to ensure this happens taking a lesson every couple weeks to see what you next step is something I would highly recommend. If your a high enough level taking group lesson will almost alway ensure you get a private.

Lastly I would like to add the physical fitness goes a long way in to becoming a better skiing. Traditional exercising IMO does not help much for skiing. Yoga, RollerBlading, Mountain biking and ski specific weight training can go a along way. Other stuff like running on trails, just plain running , and any atheletic activity does help as well but not as much as the first 3. Balance along with core and leg strenght are the 3 keys components to being a (really)good skier.

IMO, all good advice here!  To add my 2 cents, I feel that any instruction will get you some benefit -- a key thing (as stated here) is to find an instructor that you "click" with and can give you feedback based on your needs and ability to learn.  You have an open mind regarding how you might need to improve and this is a great thing.  I have said repeatedly that the venue is less important than the commitment of the student and the ability of the instructor.

I admit to a bias to ESA -- I dabbled in lessons over the years, but never really enjoyed them until I started attending ESA.  It may be the multi-day camp thing, it may be the quality of instructors, it may be where I am at in my desire to learn; it is probably a combination of all these things.  I have attended Stowe and Snowmass and have learned much from each clinic.  I definitely see a value in finding a coach and sticking with him/her.  One of my coaches gets questions and/or video e-mailed by me on a semi-regular basis, and she always answers me even  months after a clinic.

I do disagree with Skidude's comment about viral marketing.  Epicski and ESA are intimately linked, but the discussion that occurs on the website is very different from the experience at the clinic (again IMO) -- you can get as much or as little technical discussion from your coach that you need or desire.

I am not an instructor or coach, but your description of yourself struck a cord with me that reminded me of my ski history up until your age.  I am going to recommend something that is quite different than everything above, and should be considered a compliment and not a substitute for those suggestions.  In my untrained and uncertified opinion, If you want to take your skiing up a notch you need to stop skiing with friends, concentrate on keeping your weight forward, quit worrying about technique, and concentrate on the feel of your boots and skis.

28, male, reasonably athletic, fairly aggressive = Can't help getting competitive with your buddies when you ski together, so speed tends to become the most important factor.  Skiing more by yourself gives you a chance to really focus on what is happening.

Tight or steep trees and more than 8 or so moguls in a row are where I currently notice problems = Weight in the backseat, so you do not have good control and keep accelerating out of your turns. If you keep your upper body facing down the fall line and concentrate on keeping your tips weighted this should all straighten out.  Most non-expert skiers only use the back half of their skis,  If you are only going to use half, make it the front half.

My primary goal is to use skis as transport for mountaineering, so I care a lot more about being able to survive varied conditions on suboptimal gear than I do about having flawless technique on groomers with ideal boots and heavy skis. = You need to focus on the feel of the situation.  Your ankle against the front of the boot and your skis in the snow.  What you are seeking is good balance in varied conditions on varied equipment, which requires a centered sense of balance that cannot be taught, but must be felt.  So tune into the feel of your connection with the snow (boots and skis) and concentrate on making it work from the bottom up once in a while.

Ski instruction and racing are both excellent ways to become a better skier, but an instructor or coach can only point the way, you still have to make the journey and have the personal realization, and what I am suggesting will hopefully put you in the frame of mind to more easily have that realization.  Just another angle on skinning the ski cat. 

Your commitment alone will go a long way to helping you make big improvements this season.  Good luck! 
Edited by mudfoot - 10/26/09 at 9:06am

My two cents. Beyond lessons, skiing more days and improving fitness, I'd recommend the following (not that I'm such a great skier, but I have improved steadily over the years):

1. Ski with people better than you. As suggested above, this can be a two-edged sword, because it may force you to go too fast, to try too hard to impress your friends, etc. But watching how better skiers tackle difficult conditions and situations is really helpful. Ideally, just ski with one other person at a time, not a big group.
2. Watch World Cup racing, especially slalom.
3. Ski more at the same place. This is counter-intuitive, but it works. Find yourself a challenging run and do it over and over again. 50 times, 100 times, 500 times. You'll later apply what you've learned to other situations, but this is a great way to learn.

It sounds like you're interested in improving your alpine skiing. Have you considered going free heel (telemark) instead?
Why worry about moguls if you're mountaineering? Traditional lessons and clinics/camps will help you have a lot more fun at resorts and will have some carry over to backcountry fun. But if the primary goal is transport, it's a lot more cost effective to learn tactics than to develop technique. It does not take a lot of skill to traverse. But it does suck to be the weak link in your group. We'd love to see you at ESA Stowe, but based on what you've provided so far, my recommendation is a variation of option 4: Do a NASTC backcountry course.

I was going to recommend a European ski touring trip, but the one place I checked out had prices over $2K for week long trips and the following required skills for their trips:

• Ability to turn comfortably through the fall line in difficult deep, heavy snow, or bad breakable crust.
• Ability to consistently execute parallel hop turns or pedal-hop turns on 40° firm snow.
• Ability to ski the fall-line with short-radius, rhythmic parallel turns in deep light snow.
• Ability to side-slip, both forward and backward, on firm 45° slopes.
• Ability to skate on level ground.
   

• Those skills sound like a perfect list for what should be your detailed list of things to learn.
•  
• Another alternative is to get video and post in the analysis section. It's not as effective lessons, but it's a lot cheaper.

This is a great thread and you're getting a lot of great advice!

mudfoot and prickly added two very important things to the mix.  Skiing at the same place a lot is great advice.  Knowing a trail well enough to be able to focus on the changing snow conditions and your own technique takes out unnecessary variables.  Too many variables can impede progress.

Skiing alone and focusing on your balance are also great bits of advice.  My biggest breakthrough in my skiing was when I started really focusing on feeling the center of my feet and feeling shin/cuff pressure (but not too much that I'm levering forward.)   Feeling your balance and feeling where you are over your skis is so important and you can do this without an instructor, and can definitely do this better alone then while trying to keep up with people.  Awareness and feel are the key.  A little knowledge goes a long way if you are keenly aware of how you're applying it.

As to finding the right instructor another thing to be aware of is the immeasurable value of one with great Movement Analysis skills.   The best instructors can look at you, your ski/snow interaction and tell quickly what it is you need to be working on.  Not a list of things but one or two things that are the most important to you right then at that point based on what they SEE.

A great eye is not common, great knowledge of technique and lists of drills, skills and progressions are.  The most important skill in a ski instructor/coach is to know what you need, right then, and not to teach too many things at once.  This requires the eye of a master.

 oh and ps.  Since you live in Central/Western Mass, I highly recommend skiing at Berkshire East.  It is a great mountain with a lot of challenging terrain, and few crowds, even on the weekend.

I'm not pushing the ski school here (although as I've said we have some great instructors) but the mountain itself.  If it's a good season with a lot of snow there's some good tree skiing as well.

This was the same for me.  I have always said that I did not really become a good skier until I abandoned any thought of technique and shifted my focus to the feel of my skis in the snow.  Obviously, this requires having some fairly good technique skills before you make the shift.  Once you understand and feel the connection with your equipment and the snow you can more easily adapt to terrain and equipment changes, because it is not anything that needs to be thought out.

By a book, and do all the drills in sequence.  The "Essentials of Skiing" is really good.  If that works for you, then great.  If that does not, you did not lose much.