Opinions / Analysis wanted

I've been intently watching this thread since J3rry first posted his skiing. As I watched his skiing and then read Rusty's MA with the still shots from the video clips I was reminded of the MA that he did for me back in the 2006 season. Much to my surprise, he was obviously thinking it too.

As he mentioned, I have a lot of video around here. At the end of last season I compiled it all [by season] and transferred it to Vimeo. You can probably immediately see the progression from 2006 until mid-2009. I have some late 2009 stuff that shows more improvement, so if you (J3rry, or anyone else) want that, just shoot me a PM with an email address I can send the clips to.

I think that this thread has gotten a bit confusing in that while assigning names and definitions to all these transition types might be useful to some from a coaching aspect, and a skier should be able to "do" any of them, they are never going to say while skiing: "okay, I'm going to make 10 turns on this pitch with two cross-overs, three cross-throughs, a cross-under, a cross-over because the previous cross-under will put me in the back seat, a cross through, and a final cross over because I'll be tired from making 9 turns already. You get the idea. No one does this unless it is a drill.

I haven't studied J3rry's video much (watched it twice), but in reading some of the comments I think you guys have hit on a lot of what will help, including the leaning in and rotating in, weight on the inside ski, hands (inside) dropping, lack of lateral balancing movements, following the skis a lot, not a lot of "true" sidecut use, use of mostly one transition type (accept in the SL clips, I didn't see anyone pick that up yet, but I may have missed it), some back-seat habits, etc... Those aren't just little things to work on; they take a lot of drills, a lot of attention to movement patterns, and changing the skiing significantly to something that includes higher level movement patterns. Its hard work too.



So... J3rry - here is your MA:

So what to do & why (perhaps over-simplified of course; if you need more clarification just let me know):

Stance & putting your skis on edge... Garlands on flat terrain (a lot of work can be done with garlands; never underestimate their usefulness) that work on developing a very natural stance and rolling on and off the edges without using leaning in with the upper body in order to put the skis on edge. Tip from the feet. You should be able to roll onto edge standing still and while moving. If you find yourself displacing your upper body in order to put your skis on edge you are starting the movement incorrectly. It starts at the feet.

Flexing & extending... Work on getting flexing and extending in the transition; flexed through transition and extending into the turn. This will help (among other things) your ability to put the skis on edge [engaged] very early in the turn as well as your ability to handle variable terrain. Boot touches [hands to boot cuffs] in transition will work to help this out; do them without breaking at the waist a lot. If you have a terrain park with small rollers in it available to you - ski through the rollers without your body from the waist up moving up and down. When you have that one mastered, link turns through those rollers, putting the transition on the rollers and the turn in the trough. If you get much speed you'll know when you get the timing wrong... Remember that just because you're tipping to edge early with this new movement pattern, it does not mean that you are pushing against the outside ski to get pressure. Just the opposite in fact. The pressure will come on it's own - you are just extending your outside leg into the turn to allow that pressure to come to you as the turn develops. Do not push on or off the outside ski because the only thing it will do is push your center of mass inside the turn too far - putting you on your inside ski, which is something you're trying to prevent.

Staying forward... think of staying forward like this: Put your feet behind you. Instead of trying to push your upper body forward, push/pull your feet behind you. You can practice this stationary by simply doing what I just said above. Also try it in transition while executing your garlands on flatter terrain. Transition is a good place to make sure your skis aren't running out in front of you, but the process never stops, especially with the inside ski - never let it get out in front of you and always be pulling it back and up (as you gain higher angles).

Upper body (a lot can be done here)... Your upper body range of motion (or at least what you're using of it) is really lacking. I've found in my own skiing that its one of those things you can lose fast [or never get] if you aren't working on it all the time. The better your skiing gets, the more you will have to be conscious of what your upper body is doing. So your body can move in three planes (fore/aft, side-to-side, and rotationally). I covered fore/aft so I'll focus on the rotational and lateral movements. For the sake of argument prevention lets call these movements angulation (lateral) and counter (rotational). These are not positions, they are movements that you move into more as the turn progresses (generally speaking). If anyone ever teaches them to you as positions ski away from them (chances are they won't be able to catch you if they teach like that anyway ). Angulation is used for lateral balance (so you don't tip over and so you can maintain pressure on the outside ski when you need it - note you may not always need it). Rotational counter also aides in allowing for even more extreme angulation and will make sure that in your turn [especially post fall line] you aren't facing across the hill or into the hill. Rather from the pelvis up (where both of these movements originate), you will be headed toward your next turn. A good angulation drill is where you stretch an arm out to your side and break at the pelvis during the turn and touch your boot cuff (outside hand touches the outside cuff). Another is eliminating your pole swing and dragging the outside pole (press the basket into the snow). A good countering drill is one that many race coaches will use where you strap both of your poles around your hips so you can see where your pelvis is facing. You can then use your hands to direct your pelvis in the direction you'd like to go. Another is to select a fixed point downhill from you and ski toward that point without ever facing your upper body away from it. This does the same thing as the poles drill, but it lacks the instant feedback that the poles drill has.

Hands & pole swing... Your hands are also all over the place. Try to isolate your pole swing to a swing with your wrist and a tap. Dropping the inside hand will likely negate any improvements made from the information above, so even though this is a small point, it has major repercussions in your skiing. The best advice for fixing your pole plants that I can give you is to eliminate them entirely (keep the hands out in front of you without a pole tap, swing, or dropping your hands; keep the poles though). Once you can ski without the plants, put them back in with just a simple swing from the wrist and a light tap.

Overall, you're a very good skier. The advice I have given you is based largely on my own skiing and own experience while developing my skiing over the past few seasons (based on deficiencies that I was able to identify or have identified by others). As with probably everyone else on this site, I am constantly working on improving and it is a continuous process. I've gotten a lot of good advice over the years and been fortunate to have several people who have taken a strong interest in helping me develop as a skier, so hopefully you can get that as well. Good luck. Let me know if you have any questions.

Later,

Greg

Tdk,
I would add to Greg's advice about discipline in the upper body. If you need to displace your upper body  (other than to allow it to move towards the new turn) just to release the turn something is happening down at the feet that is making that move necessary.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 10/25/09 at 6:33pm

Im a big fan of drills and I spend lots of time repeting them over and over again. Very few people do. However, with drills it is important to know exactly how to do them. If not then they might do more harm than good. Certainly not any good and it will be a waste of time. Thats why its important to ski with a coach or instructor that can point out what you are dooing right and wrong. Often when it feels wrong its right and the other way arround.

Balance over your outside ski
Very good drill would in my opinion be the "javelin drill" where the inside ski is vertically lifted up into the air and tip crossed over the outside ski tip so that the tips align on on top of each other. The inside ski should be pulled back at the same time. This will force the skier to balance over his outside ski. This is done by using angulation which is a continuous movement. Even if we appear to stand without mooving we are constantly correcting our balance. And guess with what, yes, outside leg weighting and angulation. When the ski is placed back onto the snow at the end of the turn it should be on its uphill edge. Taping these drills is usefull becaue only then you will be able and see how you perform. Best is to tape the instructor at the exact same location on the same day with the same hill and snow for reference. This drill is also good for for aft balance.

Flex through transition
The drill Greg mentioned where you touch your boots at transition is a great drill but very hard to do by yourself. The reason for that is that its not natural for seasoned skiers to flex through transition and extend into the turn since they have learned the opposite. As I mentioned much earlier in the thread OP can pull off a nice retraction turn. Check out the SL segment, so the movements and techniques are all there its just that they are all swirling arround without any proper understanding. This man need coaching. Not becaue he is bad, on the contrary, because he can become so much better. 

jasp - you displace your body into the turn and back over your skis by moving your feet. Your feet and skis move as one. The skis are arcing according to their turn radius and how you pressure them.

TDK, The release is a focus of the garland and side slip drills. Both teach a progressive and subtle release. It can happen as a function of rolling the skis flat using angulation (decreasing it), or as a function of moving the pelvis across the skis until the edge angle is reduced enough for the skis to lose edge grip. although if we adjust the edge angle with just the feet before we get the body far enough over the skis, all that happens is the feet accelerate downhill and our body falls into the hill. So it takes a combination of both to execute an effective release. Which I would like to point out is 50% of good edging skills. It's not enought to get onto a high edge, you need to get back off that high edge. That's why I keep harping on the release problems I see.

Secondly, If you wait until the last few feet of the turn to begin getting the body back over the skis then you are forced to hurry through the transition to the new turn. The bigger acceleration and the momentum created by these big, strong, late moves adds to the existing momentum that will already carry you into the new turn. So now that you have created all this excessive momentum, you need to do something to reduce it, or your body will continue to move inside the new turn well beyond where you want it to go. Add the momentum from trying to create early edge pressure by pushing against the newly engaged outside ski and it should be no surprise that you see J3rry lose outside ski pressure. If he wants to keep that ski engaged throughout the entire turn, all of these strong moves need to be adjusted and toned down.

It really goes back to the idea that J3rry has learned to use a lot of big moves while free cariving. What J3rry lacks is the ability to use small, subtle moves. His path towards improvement needs to include exploring more finesse in all phases of his turns, not just during the initiation and middle of his turns.
 

 I didn't read all the posts, so everyone please forgive me if I'm repeating something that's already been said.  Strong skiing, but definitely room for improvement, as is the case with most of us.  

You are using more of an ILE type of transition here.  I think that's perfectly fine, I'm not going to try to talk you into an OLR type here.  Just offer some refinement.  Search the forum for ILE and OLR to find out more about those two types of transitions, its been discussed to infinity here.

I have absolutely no problem with using ILE transition here.  Watch 99% of the WC racers doing their practice carving away from gates and that's what they're doing too.

I think a huge part of your issues can be resolved by doing one thing, simply keeping your hips ahead of your feet.  There are countless frames in this video where your hips are WAY behind your feet, including at the fall line.  You are using more of an ILE type of transition, so I would not expect to see your hips back in very many frames.  Part of why you are waving your arms up at transition is to help pull yourself out of the back seat going into each new turn.  However its not enough.

First, pull yourself forward using your core, not with big arm waving movements.  Pull your feet back, engaging your core, right as you pass through neutral in transition.  Don't move forward by bending forward at the waist.  PROJECT your hips forward.  If you break that down, it means flexing your ankle and straightening your knee.  Actually if you stand on the flats and rock your hips forward and back without changing the flex in your waist, you will see that a huge range of motion is possible, all coming from your ankles and knees.  There are a lot of ways to be fore or aft.  You can bend forward at the waist, which will give you a feeling of center balance, but your hips are still way behind your feet, which is going to result in problems.  The name of the game is to keep your hips ahead of your feet.  In order to do that you fundamentally have to straighten your knee and flex your ankle forward.  You can also think about pulling your feet back, which essentially has the same effect of flexing your ankle forward.  However if you have a lot of flex in your knee, then your hips will still be back.  Keep your hips ahead.  

Secondly, when you go to transition to the next turn, change which leg you are standing on from the old outside ski to the old inside ski (little toe edge).  I think you may already be doing that, but just want to make sure you're doing it consciously.  Don't push too hard on that new outside leg, yet.  Just change which leg you are primarily standing on to be that one, initially.  Let the pressure come to you, don't try to push on it other than very slightly.  You will subsequently find you will be extending that leg as the turn entry progresses, but not for the purpose of pushing.

When you do that change of which leg you are standing to support most of your weight, the change of balance points will cause your CoM to start moving across into the new turn without you having to push yourself there.  So that way you can focus your attention on projecting your CoM forward(towards your ski tips), instead of laterally into the next turn.  Understand the difference here I am trying to point out by using the word "project" instead of the word "push".  Pushing will result either in popping up on flat ski or pushing laterally to the inside on an engaged edge, which is likely to cause you to fall too far inside or compromise your edge engagement.  Projecting is more about using your core to project your CoM in a certain direction without pushing on an edge to do it.  This is where a good pole swing will really help too.

Don't try to dive to the inside of the next turn quite as quickly.  That feeling is kind of like a heroine addiction, it feels good, but hurts overall performance.  Project your Com more forward towards the outside of the new turn instead of to the inside of the turn.  The ILE move mentioned above is going to be toppling your CoM into the new turn automatically.  Your job is not so push it there faster, but rather to guide your CoM forward, hips ahead of feet, as momentum topples your CoM towards the inside of the new turn.  Be a little more patient to build that edge angle in the next turn.  The angles will come.  Try to think about moving onto the inside edge of the shovel of your new outside ski. 

Skis today let you get away with all kinds of fun stuff, and you can carve around on the inside doing all kinds of funny things.  If that's what floats your boat, I say why not, knock yourself out.  Unless you are racing, its really all about fun and whatever makes it most fun for you (as long as its reasonably safe).  However, as Rusty pointed out, you are falling onto the inside ski, your outside ski is washing out a bit and you're having to use a giant effort to pull yourself out of the backseat during every transition.   These turns can be more efficient, safer, use less energy and will get nods of approval from folks that know better, by tuning up some things.

ps - love the organ track


Edited by borntoski683 - 10/26/09 at 12:57pm

jasp - well said, OP needs to tone down his big moves. This is also the reason he struggles with the varying terrain. He is so busy making these big moves that he has totally forgot to feel the skis underneath him.

About the relese.... what is the difference of decresing angulation or moving the pelvis over the skis? IMO its very important to place your hips and torso in a favorable location before pressure builds up. Thats why strong pointing of knees sometimes can put your hips out in the turn. Everything should move simultaniously. At transition these setup moves are made and then they are increased as pressure builds up.

TDK there are no positions that work beyond a very brief moment, so it's more about moving though a range of motion and constantly adjusting our stance (as needed) to make the skis do what we want then to do. Angulation and inclination are only two of many ways we can do that. One involves moving the middle joints of the body around to raise and lower the edge angle. The hula hoop drill I created is just one example of this type of angulation movement. In comparison, Inclination moves the upper body and pelvis as a unit while the feet remain relatively anchored to the snow. The different length of the legs pretty much dictates the edge angle. Which is why pure inclination turns are sometimes called "Eileen" turns. Neither are intrinsically good or bad though. It just depends on what you're trying to accomplish within that particular turn. Opinions about the appropriateness of either should be gaged by what the intended outcome was and if you accomplished that objective. So just because angulation allows us to move through a wider and more usable range of lateral motion, we need to be careful about falling into the trap of approaching turn production from a cookie cutter mentality and just memorizing one set of movements and expecting them to be effective everywhere. There are too many variables involved for that to be an effective way to ski the entire mountain. 
Especially when you consider that the simple act of skiing across the snow causes the snow to change in consistency and density. The thin layer of melted water created by the skis sliding across the snow quickly re-freezes and this small patch of work hardened snow remains where the softer snow we just skied once was. Multiply this effect by the amount of skier traffic on that run and it's easy to understand why the surface of the snow is so inconsistent. I know it sounds like I jumped up on my soap box here but I see so many people doing the exact same movements everywhere and wondering why some of their turns work out well while others don't. Haven't you heard a student say "I don't understand why that last turn felt so different, I did it just like the other turns?"

Which brings us back to J3rry and all of his bigger than necessary movement patterns. Some of this is caused by habitually large moves but an even greater percent of the problem is the mis-timing of his recentering before the release issue (he doesn't). the simple adivce of "Do it early, before you need to rush, or wait and do it so late that you have trouble controlling the outcome". Would be my advice.

Shifting J3rry's extension to support his new edging would benefit him greatly. He is not able to pressure his skis to his benefit  because he is trying to release using a big up move to leap into his turn. This removes pressure when he needs it the most and delays  his pressuring which causes him to deal with these forces all at once causing his overpressuring of  the  skis when he should be working towards his new transition. He's left with a skid and another leap of faith .

As Heluva suggested  he should flex to release and then extend as soon as  he changes edges to add that early pressure he desires. His extension should not be hurried and sudden but a progressive extending while rolling up on his edges and then flex progressively while rolling off of his edges into his transition.

His move into the turn is a leap onto his inside ski and with some patience he can allow the outside ski to support his turn and create a better turn shape with a more functional balance . His pressuring and edging just need to be timed differently and with a solid transition he can work towards understanding other  types of transitions and make use of skills he has made evident.

We should help him by keeping our suggestions in the KISS principle and allow him to understand by not burying him with too much he  can't absorb without filtering through the jargon and transition options. Build from fundamentals and basic understandings and then layer more with a base of understanding to build on. 

That's a bold, unsubstantiated statement.  Let's consider the alternative for a second.  Hypothetically speaking, if a small, easily taught set of movements were developed that did enable students to ski the entire mountain effectively, what fraction of instructors d'ya reckon would adopt it and what fraction would stick with the "too many variables" school for reasons economic, social, or political?  Could one or more such systems already exist and still live mostly below the radar screen?  Either in the national team coaching staff of an unusually winning nation or in the recreational or adaptive skiing spaces?

Today was my first day on snow this season and looking around I was reminded that all of us -- even the racers who were training -- could benefit from some refresher coaching as we begin the new season.  (My first 2 runs would make a decent technique bloopers clip, for example.)  I stuck to the basics today; I can't cope with dialing in more than 1 or 2 skiing variables a day. 

I second GarryZ and sharpedges KISS approach. jasp might be right in theory which he knows very well but I dont see the need for such approach when it comes to OP in this thread seeking help and advice and not knowing much about advanced technical and theoretical skiing consepts.

My opinion is unaltered. J3rry's problem is that he is putting too much weight on his inside ski early on and he is trying desperatly to get angles and turn radius that he is not getting from his skis. More patiens at turn intitiation and adapting to ski performance. Angulation and outside ski pressure is where he should start and build from there. Leaning into the turn puts his weight on the inside ski and makes his outside ski slide away. Symptom is outside ski sliding away and abrupt up move. Cause is rushed turn entry, bad outside ski pressure and banking. Cure is more patiens at turn initiation, adapting to ski performance and angulation. You need to start with the basics and work from there. I had a bad jr racer come to our ski school wanting to get into coaching but this poor fella did not even know how to angulate. Even the 4-6y olds beat him at that. I start all my lessons no matter how advanced with a warm up drill including standing on one ski. You would be surpriced at how many always self claimed often self thaught advanced skiers cannot do that properly. Balance boys balance.

BTW, how theoretical and how complicated you want to be really has nothing to do with ski teaching systems. In every sport, field, system it all boils down to the individual instructor and the student and how they interact. Finding the right coach for you is not an easy task. Ski instruction is also about making money. Every single business that is successfull and even the ones that are not have the business aspect present. If you think for one second that someone making his living out of something and relying on it for his living doesent think about money you better think again. Since even WC skiers have to be coached you dont need to stall teaching at wedge level just to secure your income. Its a much better way to convince others you and only you can help. This is however wrong. If you want to be a sucessfull instructor love skiing and teaching and what you do and the mountains and do as you are told and get along with students, co-workers and management. This world is wrong anyway, just ask the chicken that ended up on my plate last night.

All your answers made me love this forum! Totally.

So much insight, thank you all so much for this, really - I've read all the posts thoroughly and have been thinking on how to prioritize the key problems to focus on - I've came to the conclusion that there are two major issues I am encountering/areas that I should work on:

1. Improve inclination/Implement more angulation (especially at/below the fall line) - this should help me with the "too much inside ski weight" problem...

2. Optimize movements i do, especially the pole plant...

After this is fixed (I'll definitely start working on that back on flats, away from my belowed "challenging" steeps, at least for the start...) I can start working on other areas, such as the several times mentioned terrain reading ability (i thought It was one of my strengths:()...

Is this okay or am I simplifying too much/missing some key element out ?

.  Simplification of sport into core movements (fundamentals) is a pretty common approach to teaching most sports.  We can see from watching professionals in any sport that this approach is not limiting.  Their mastery (through repeated and constant practice) of fundamentals is the very thing that allows them to perform in that "beyond" zone.  Fundamentals are a spring-board, not a box.  They are the "raw elements" through which other movements are synthesized through instinct combined with athletic ability. 

JASP is right; every turn is different.  But I agree with sharpedges in that a focused, fundamentals-based approach is the key to being able to successful adapt to the unique demands of each new turn.

Take "I-Lean" turns (pure inclination).  If you believe it is an important movement, one approach might be to teach it.  The other approach would be to just teach angulation, knowing that anyone who has mastered angulation is going to be able to instinctively use inclination should they need/want to.

Skiing into counter is another one.  IMO, even if you believe in it, the best way to teach it is to teach early counter.  If you start with more than enough counter to hold, it is a simple matter to play with backing that off until you start to feel how much is necessary.  Anyone who knows how to counter can easily delay doing it and ski into it if they so choose.

While there are certainly World Cup skiers who display things like heavy inclination and skiing into counter, it is important to remember that most of them didn't start out skiing that way. The technique that they display today is very likely heavily based on a foundation of a small set of fundamental movements that they practiced over and over. 
Edited by geoffda - 10/27/09 at 7:32am

SE, What variables? Just go out and make the same turn everywhere! I though you just said there are no variables! Oh wait a minute maybe some variables do exist and knowing how to deal with those variable is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned all the inherent problems with the "cookie cutter turn production mantra". I'm also curious about why you included all the stuff about social, political,and economic motivations being why I don't subscribe to the cookie cutter school of skiing. I have zero tolerance for all the negative and quite frankly unprofessional comments you made it this post. I used to think you were above that.

Being this is a technical forum all the detailed discussion is a worthy experience and it should be encouraged . My thoughts are to respond to the OP  and address them in language you would share with a student and not a peer. Then address the details lower after spacing your column  or somehow  else  so it's a two part discussion. The OP can take any part  and get a deeper understanding .

This is a technical forum and that needs to be upheld but we also need to address the OP in a manner that is best for them and still discuss the details thoroughly.

I thought the many gems of advice I had read got lost in the discussion. This thread has offered so much but I'm not sure your message got delivered as best it could have.

TDK and I obviously disagree about the root cause. Angulation will only keep the zipper of his coat vertical, it will not arrest all of the momentum he created in the transition. Which IMO is the root cause of all his problems. Let me say this clearly though, The ultra strong and undiscipline huck starts a whole set of balancing issues which go well beyond inclination / angulation balancing issues in the control phase. 

Edited by justanotherskipro - 10/27/09 at 7:44pm

You've got to be kidding.

We dont need to agree on this. I think that the OP could start solving his problems by not weighting his inside ski that much and hanging on it through out the turn and you think something else. Its only good that OP and others reading this gets a few diverging opinions. And they are not automatically excuding each other. You know, always get a second opinion. I think the huck is a result of him standing on his inside ski. Its a recovery move. But I could be wrong.

Im afraid no.....

(mod hat on)
Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. The OP has the answers he came for.

 Just simple observations.  Obviously you know way too much about skiing.  Do you have a job?

I wonder if what you know is all being shown in your skiing? It seems there is more in there than what we can see.
all the comments on angulation and what not suggest a much more fundamental balance issue I would suggest.  
I love the moves but the moves you are making I would expect much more out of the ski performance in the sense that I wonder if the ski could cut much more cleanly.  is it that you are powering up the ski too quickly to hold clean.  there is an alignment issue although probably slight. I think you are ready to start to learn how to use your feet inside the boots now. "grasshopper"
There are some timing changes to adjust in the exit and entrance Vs belly of turn.  Or a rushing in the transition and a bit of holding in the belly.  
Over all I would like to see the arms drive and enhance the energy not just be held out front of you because someone told you to. 

I would suggest that doing these sort of turns on a slope with this many people might not be as safe as you would like to think.  it is ok to abort the mission when others are around.  I thought I saw a few close ones there.  It is all fun and games until someone looses an eye, then it's just fun and games that you cant see anymore.