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Opinions / Analysis wanted

#1
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Hello, everyone,

I'm an intermediate/advanced (?) skier who is constantly working to improve his skiing - I'd like to know, what you think of my latest video - material used is listed in its description:


Any opinions/analysis are welcome.

Thank you very much in advance

Cheers

Tomas
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#2
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Greetings Tomas. Welcome to Epic!

This is advanced skiing. These turns are well controlled, with edge engagement above the fall line and some nice carving as evidenced by some exciting lateral acceleration across the fall line. The positioning of your outside leg well out from underneath your torso shows that this is strong skiing. Your race training background can be seen by your rounded shoulders and the weight in the back at the end of the turn (butt behind the heels). One thing about your skiing that's really cool and is easily seen in the slalom turns is how you recover from weight in the back at the end of the turns by using a crossunder technique, then tipping and down weighting your skis to engage them in the next turn. The good news is that you're already getting a lot of performance in your skiing.

The bad news is that future performance gains typically will come in small increments and will require a lot of effort. The biggest thing that I'm seeing is too much weight on the inside ski. The most visible sign of this is the divergence of the outside ski in the fall line.



Let's take a look at why this is happening.

At the end of the previous turn, the diverged outside ski is till behind. Look how much tip lead there is between the inside and outside skis. From this position we'd normally want to see a collapse of the new inside leg to help draw the hips diagonally forward to the inside of the new turn. But this can't happen because the new inside leg (for the next turn) is already bent and the right femur is blocking the path that the hips need to move on. The only place to go from here is up.

So up we go. Here you've transferred all your weight to the new outside ski (inside ski is lifted). We're reaching the point in the turn where we want to be balanced against the outside ski. Notice how flat the outside ski is. From here, you're going to develop higher edge angles through a lateral movement to the inside. Since we had to go up instead of forward from the last pic, it's too late to go forward. Leaning to the inside is the only way to get the center of mass inside of the new turn quickly enough. Soooo...

The high edge angle on the outside ski is good. But the inside ski is not edged as much. How do you get it to edge higher? By leaning over even more and then stepping on the ski. You can't carve without moving your weight forward at some point in the turn and moving forward onto the outside ski is going in the wrong direction. So the inside ski makes sense here. Which results in where we started.


The bad news is that changing this to get more performance is almost impossible because the end of the previous turn is what is forcing how the next turn is started, which forces the end of that turn to be the same and so on. Nobody ever makes the first turn "right" to prevent this chain of events from happening. The good news is that there are dozens of different approaches that can help you break this cycle. I'll give you one way, but you're likely to get all sorts of different suggestions (some of them may be contradictory) that are just as likely to help you.

 

In this next photo, look at where your inside hand is.


From here your hand actually disappears as it falls behind your hips, In the next frame (I'm too lazy to copy another still), the alignment of your shoulders is exactly opposite of the alignment of your skis (inside shoulder behind, inside ski ahead). What I want you to do from this point of the turn is to move that inside hand up and ahead instead of letting it drop down and back. If you've seen rugby or American football, this is like using a stiff arm to keep your opponent from tackling you. This move will align your shoulders with your ski tips and force you to lengthen that outside leg. This will put you into position to start your next turn with a move of the hips and shoulders straight forward in the direction that they are already facing (which will be to the inside of the next turn). Because your old outside leg is long, you'll be able to collapse that leg while extending off your new outside leg. This will bring you to inside of the new turn without going up first. It will also let you tip both the inside and the outside ski onto their new edges at the same time and earlier in the turn than what you're doing now. This is what the people who are beating you in the race course are doing.

Here are some other drills that will help you do this. A White Pass turn is where you initiate your turn (change edges) with all your weight on the inside ski. This is almost exactly opposite of what you're doing now. You have to make the edge change with your old inside ski raised off the snow, then set it down back on the snow only after you've passed through the fall line. After you set it down, you have to pick your other ski off the snow so that you're weight is totally on the ski that will become your new inside ski.  You can't do this drill smoothly if you're not moving your weight forward and to the inside of the next turn from the center of your body (i.e the hips), starting with collapsing the inside leg. A drill that can help you develop that movement is called cowboy turns. Ski with your feet greater than shoulder width apart and make turns without pivoting your feet to change the direction of the skis. In this drill you can't get your weight to the inside by leaning the upper body. You either move your lower body to get your weight to the inside of the next turn or you'll cheat by pivoting your feet.  If you have trouble with this, the hop to shape drill can help. At the finish of one turn, hop both feet into the air, turn them while in the air and change edges while in the air. Land and immediately and smoothly carve the finish of the next turn. If you focus on landing softly, you'll automatically feel yourself get into the position I talked about above.

Find some clips posted by Heluvaskier and watch the progress made over the last few years. This could be you.

Hope this helps. Have fun this season!

Regards,
Rusty

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#3
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j3rry, wellcome to epic and thanks for showing the video. You are asking for feedback so you will give you some. First, you ski well. If not advanced so very good in each case. Depends on how versatile you are. In the video it only shows one kind of skiing. I like your energy and your devotion to carving. You look like a racer. Are you a racer or did you just pick that style up from mimicing a racer. Its very resemblant of the GG style that has been up here for discussion this fall as well. You use a lot of inclination. Good filming BTW and just out of curiosity, where is it?

First, I would like to draw your attention to how your skis perform in the snow. Heavy inclination without angulation has the side effect that you pressure you inside ski too much and you loose outside ski pressure. Before rushing off to the boot fitter to get your alignment checked try lifting your inside ski up in the air when turning. This will force you to balance over your outside ski and that in turn will improve how your skis perform. Inclination is ok if your skis are tracking without drifting all through the turn but you are loosing outside ski pressure at the end of each turn. Dont try to get your inside hand as close to the snow as possible. Try to level your shoulders as you come to the fall line and after. Like it or not, loosing that outside ski pressure at the end of the turn is because of banking. And banking is inclination gone bad. If your outside ski was carving edge locked and cleanly I would not say a word.

This is really where I would begin. I could mention many thins that stand out to me but they all boil down to this little flaw. Fix it and you are on the right track improving your skiing.

One more thing really stands out to me. I would like to draw your attention to your rhythm and your determination and your devotion to turning. Now its is very inefficient and inconsistant looking to me. It has to do with your outside ski loosing tracktion at the end of the turn so its coupled to what I said above. You are loosing momentum and therefore your performance level is way below your activity level. You are trying very hard to do stuff but you are not getting satisfactory results. Focus on getting those skis carving all through the turn and aim for a powerfull turn exit.

BTW, those inside ski carved balley turns are very really cool looking. I go Ouch when I think about what that would be dooing to my knees....
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#4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post


Find some clips posted by Heluvaskier and watch the progress made over the last few years. This could be you.
 


  I second therusty's suggestion.  Heluvaskier is a former collegiate racer who has made significant improvement in his skiing over the past two years with a well thought out training program.  Drop him a private message on the forum and see if he'll give you some  suggestions on training after analyzing your video.

Welcome to Epic and have fun on the slopes this season!

finesse + balance + a big grin  skiing
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#5
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Nice skiing-great music!
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#6
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 Not much doubt in my mind that that's Jimmy Smith on the organ.
We are all the same distance from infinity.
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#7
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 I just want to drop by to say that inclination is not leaning.  They are similar in that both are seen as a tilting of the whole skier.

Inclination is tilting with weight dominance on the outside ski.

Leaning is tilting with weight dominance on the inside ski.

Inclination is not bad, doing it wrong is bad; leaning is often a failed attempt at inclination.  Learning to do it wrong results in many errors, skidding and divergence to name two.  therusty is right, you are leaning in as opposed to using inclination.  

What some folks do to fix this, is to avoid inclination altogether and use angulation right from the start of the turn.  Learning to do this wrong also results in errors, throwing the hip inside to make edge angles, riding in the back seat to name two.

Others suggest that it is best to use inclination from start to fall-line, and then to use angulation from fall-line onwards as necessary.  This approach avoids the risk of throwing the hip inside and back to create the initial edge angle but still risks leaning in.

In my opinion, if you like to ski this way, there is no need to avoid inclination. You simply need to learn how to do it while maintaining weight dominance on the outside ski.

Try lightening the inside ski throughout the turn.  Begin the turn by flexing the outside leg, and allowing the body to switch sides.  You'll need to get some weight on the tip of the ski to start the turn, so you'll have to pull the new outside ski back hard between turns.  Let the inside ski just graze the snow, or keep it slightly lifted through the turn. That will guarantee outside ski dominance.

BTW: where did you learn that rowing action between turns?

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#8
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Rusty hit on something that I would like to explore deeper. The pelvis and the hips. The up, over, and down movement gets the hips into the new turn but the price for using that movement is all that the extra distance traveled by the hips. Compensating for this usually means either moving the pelvis and hips faster through that path, or adding some sort of delay move to the path of the feet and skis so the hips can catch up with the skis. What I see is a bit of both,
  •  since your pelvis is moving faster due to the greater distance it's traveling, controlling it accurately is much more difficult. When you get too far inside this should tell you your not being as accurate with your hip and pelvis as you could be. How do you change this? Either by moving the pelvis and hips slower and over more time, or by taking a more direct path that doesn't require the up move and can be done at a slower overall speed (less distance over the same time frame). Think sine wave instead of square wave.
  • The skis are slowed down with the skid (the loss of edge purchase of the outside ski). So if you only eliminated the skid, then your pelvis would end up further behind the feet. So in a odd way the skid allows the body to catch up and sometimes pass the feet. Since the pelvis moves away from the skis before moving into the new turn this sets up a closed loop that feeds upon itself. You try to correct for this by dropping the pelvis quicker into the new turn. All that does is feed the closed loop though. A rounder path by the feet is an option but that has limited usefulness since you do not maintain edge pressure and purchase on the outside ski. Adding more range of motion to the flex and extend (pressure control skill pool) is a better option as long as the movements are towards the next turn instead of up and away from the skis before moving into the new turn.

The common thread here is a more direct path by the pelvis would facilitate more accurate pelvic and hip movements since they wouldn't be moving up away from the skis (a delay move) and would also facilitate keeping more pressure on the outside ski since they are not moving away from the skis, which would facilitate better balance and edge purchase through more of the turn. So how do we do that? Instead of extending up before moving towards the new turn, try moving towards the turn before moving up.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 10/22/09 at 8:19pm
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#9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

The common thread here is a more direct path by the pelvis would facilitate more accurate pelvic and hip movements since they wouldn't be moving up away from the skis (a delay move) and would also facilitate keeping more pressure on the outside ski since they are not moving away from the skis, which would facilitate better balance and edge purchase through more of the turn. So how do we do that? Instead of extending up before moving towards the new turn, try moving towards the turn before moving up.

Why move up at all?
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#10
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therusty, look at Tomas nailing that White Pass turn :



Tomas, this turn came to you by accidet but its exactly what therusty talked about earlier in his posting. This is not a proper Whit Pass turn. I would rather call it a White Pass turn initiation. Your weight is totally on your new inside ski at the initiation of your new turn. It all started in previous turn to the right where you insted of what you usually do, lean onto you inside ski, kept the pressure on both skis and sufficiently over your outside ski. This you did by anuglating insted of banking, which I repeat, is inclination gone bad. Check for this in my first posting. The result was momentum you were not prepared for. This is also what I was talking about in my first posting. You lack momentum and rebound in your normal skiing. You have no saved energy that you can explosively project forward into transition and into the new turn. So, you were caught off balance and your old inside ski was lifted off the snow. To regain balance you did all the right moves. Here you can actually see how you start the turn by inclination in frames 1 and 2 and then you angulate in frame 3. This montage also shows a ILE transition to finish up your left turn. Looking very good. Nice job. Well done. Pay attention to your inside left hand dropping behind in frame 3. This is what therusty also commented on. Read his excellent posting very thoroughly. Your inside arm dropping behind is actually a leftover move from planting your outside pole, the pole plant. I see you frequently bringing that outside arm forward and to compensate for that you drop your outside arm back. You are planting your poles in the wrong direction. Insted of reaching forwards to plant your pole try to swing it in an arc arround the outside and lightly "tap" it down the fall line. A drill for this is drop the poleplant out of your skiing and after you can do that comfortably start learning to do it like I explained above. When you carve like this I dont really think you need to plant at all. It should be optional. If it helps you then yes but now its only wrecking your skiing. Dropping the poleplant does not mean you have to stop bringing your arms forwards like you do at transition. Its a good moove that you still can do. Actually it becomes easier if you drop your pole plant.

Check out this frame capture. I would say you are looking like a pro. I would say there is nothing wrong with this frame or this turn or turn transition. Its right after that huge jump where you were airborn at least 30m  . You look like a WC skier free skiing. The right movements are there, just get rid of that haniging towards the inside of the turn putting to much of your weight on the inside ski. You are nicely angulated, your skis are arcing, your upper body is calm and steady and in balance, your arms are out to the sides and down, your shoulders are levelled, your shins are parallel, your back is hunched rounded and curved, your head is dropped, your are well balanced over your skis, weight forwards. Lifting that inside arm and feeling steching tention in your inside hip area are signes you are doing the right movements.



BTW, I think your carving in a tuck is great skiing. You also seem to be able to get in a low tuck. And carve at the same time. Good hip and leg work.

Your SL segment shows much of what has been commented on before. Nothing new except for the heavy rotation you do. You throw your body arround very quickly at the beginning of the segment becaue you want to come arround quickly. This together with your typical up move (leftover from the past) makes you lose pressure in the beginning of the tun and your ski edges grab the snow after apex. Insted you should do what you do later on in that segment as the pist flats out. Work with your legs. Flex and extend. Flex through the transiton and extend into the turn. That kind of turning is also called reacing SL turns. Your reach out with your legs to pass the gate. You yourself are skiing on the inside of the gate. CoM moves as little as possible in the horisontal plane. And the vertical plane. Only forward and down the slope. The less you move your CoM the smoother you ski. Here is one last capture showing good and bad form. Now when you know what to do it should not be a problem stating your advanced level once and for all. BTW, if you look at this last photo montage you can pretend that the frames are from the same turn. I did this on purpouse so that you and others can see what I mean when I say that angulation should be dynamic and used when needed only just as any other move you do. Start out with inclination in high C where its important that you hook your skis up in a carve and you set the gross parameters of the turn. Your projection into the new turn or whatever you want to call it. That means falling down the slope if you are crossing perpendicular at transition. Then letting the skis catch up. Then applying angulation and counter. Right after apex the forces start to really build up and quickly. You need quick muscle reactions and prefect timing. Timing is much more important than big muscles. Skiing done properly is also efficient skiing. Bad technique werars you our. Good technique also werars you out but you are at compleatly different perfoming level. Here is the photomontage:



Both photos are taken from the same moment in the turn. Notice how the knees are pointing into the turn in the upper frame leaving the hips to the outside and how that is not so in the lower frame. Also, check out the long leg short leg in lower frame .

Hope this helps,

Tom
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#11
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Check out the White Pass turn in this video:

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#12
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Hi, everyone,

Thank you very much for all your posts, some of them are very thorough and although I kind of sensed some of the issues, you really helped me sort of fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle. I was not sure how to reply to your individual posts, so I decided to do it like this directly into your posts. I hope you don't mind...:o)


Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post

Greetings Tomas. Welcome to Epic!

This is advanced skiing. These turns are well controlled, with edge engagement above the fall line and some nice carving as evidenced by some exciting lateral acceleration across the fall line. The positioning of your outside leg well out from underneath your torso shows that this is strong skiing. Your race training background can be seen by your rounded shoulders and the weight in the back at the end of the turn (butt behind the heels). One thing about your skiing that's really cool and is easily seen in the slalom turns is how you recover from weight in the back at the end of the turns by using a crossunder technique, then tipping and down weighting your skis to engage them in the next turn. The good news is that you're already getting a lot of performance in your skiing.

Hello, Rusty,

Thank you for the welcome:) Your comment on my "race trainging background" really pleases me, because I've never really raced as an officially registered competitor (I've taken a couple of public races, though), however I must admit that the following video has been a lot of inspiration for me:


The bad news is that future performance gains typically will come in small increments and will require a lot of effort. The biggest thing that I'm seeing is too much weight on the inside ski. The most visible sign of this is the divergence of the outside ski in the fall line.



Let's take a look at why this is happening.

At the end of the previous turn, the diverged outside ski is till behind. Look how much tip lead there is between the inside and outside skis. From this position we'd normally want to see a collapse of the new inside leg to help draw the hips diagonally forward to the inside of the new turn. But this can't happen because the new inside leg (for the next turn) is already bent and the right femur is blocking the path that the hips need to move on. The only place to go from here is up.

So up we go. Here you've transferred all your weight to the new outside ski (inside ski is lifted). We're reaching the point in the turn where we want to be balanced against the outside ski. Notice how flat the outside ski is. From here, you're going to develop higher edge angles through a lateral movement to the inside. Since we had to go up instead of forward from the last pic, it's too late to go forward. Leaning to the inside is the only way to get the center of mass inside of the new turn quickly enough. Soooo...

The high edge angle on the outside ski is good. But the inside ski is not edged as much. How do you get it to edge higher? By leaning over even more and then stepping on the ski. You can't carve without moving your weight forward at some point in the turn and moving forward onto the outside ski is going in the wrong direction. So the inside ski makes sense here. Which results in where we started.


I'm afraid that the fact that I have much too weight on the inside ski + find myself improperly inclined with almost no "break at the hip" is leftover due to my funcarving background (this is me five years ago totally immersed by laying it down - this is how I got interested in carving initially):


The bad news is that changing this to get more performance is almost impossible because the end of the previous turn is what is forcing how the next turn is started, which forces the end of that turn to be the same and so on. Nobody ever makes the first turn "right" to prevent this chain of events from happening. The good news is that there are dozens of different approaches that can help you break this cycle. I'll give you one way, but you're likely to get all sorts of different suggestions (some of them may be contradictory) that are just as likely to help you.

 

In this next photo, look at where your inside hand is.


From here your hand actually disappears as it falls behind your hips, In the next frame (I'm too lazy to copy another still), the alignment of your shoulders is exactly opposite of the alignment of your skis (inside shoulder behind, inside ski ahead). What I want you to do from this point of the turn is to move that inside hand up and ahead instead of letting it drop down and back. If you've seen rugby or American football, this is like using a stiff arm to keep your opponent from tackling you. This move will align your shoulders with your ski tips and force you to lengthen that outside leg. This will put you into position to start your next turn with a move of the hips and shoulders straight forward in the direction that they are already facing (which will be to the inside of the next turn). Because your old outside leg is long, you'll be able to collapse that leg while extending off your new outside leg. This will bring you to inside of the new turn without going up first. It will also let you tip both the inside and the outside ski onto their new edges at the same time and earlier in the turn than what you're doing now. This is what the people who are beating you in the race course are doing.

Here are some other drills that will help you do this. A White Pass turn is where you initiate your turn (change edges) with all your weight on the inside ski. This is almost exactly opposite of what you're doing now. You have to make the edge change with your old inside ski raised off the snow, then set it down back on the snow only after you've passed through the fall line. After you set it down, you have to pick your other ski off the snow so that you're weight is totally on the ski that will become your new inside ski.  You can't do this drill smoothly if you're not moving your weight forward and to the inside of the next turn from the center of your body (i.e the hips), starting with collapsing the inside leg. A drill that can help you develop that movement is called cowboy turns. Ski with your feet greater than shoulder width apart and make turns without pivoting your feet to change the direction of the skis. In this drill you can't get your weight to the inside by leaning the upper body. You either move your lower body to get your weight to the inside of the next turn or you'll cheat by pivoting your feet.  If you have trouble with this, the hop to shape drill can help. At the finish of one turn, hop both feet into the air, turn them while in the air and change edges while in the air. Land and immediately and smoothly carve the finish of the next turn. If you focus on landing softly, you'll automatically feel yourself get into the position I talked about above.

Find some clips posted by Heluvaskier and watch the progress made over the last few years. This could be you.

Hope this helps. Have fun this season!

Thank you very much for your input and feedback, very eye opening, I will definitely try out both the cowboy and the white pass turns as well as keep an eye out for the proper position of arms - I think I know what you mean by that + I will also check out Heluvaskier:)
 





Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

j3rry, wellcome to epic and thanks for showing the video. You are asking for feedback so you will give you some. First, you ski well. If not advanced so very good in each case. Depends on how versatile you are. In the video it only shows one kind of skiing. I like your energy and your devotion to carving. You look like a racer. Are you a racer or did you just pick that style up from mimicing a racer. Its very resemblant of the GG style that has been up here for discussion this fall as well. You use a lot of inclination. Good filming BTW and just out of curiosity, where is it?

Well, I consider myself fairly versatile skier as I can confidently (and sometimes even comfortably:D) make my way down almost any kind of slope, including unprepared icy steep or bowls - except maybe powder where I have problems - very physically demanding for me, maybe also because the improper technique - but I'm not bothered with that by now as I don't get the opportunity to do powder skiing very often - it's really once or twice per season If I'm lucky...

Yes, you hit the jackpot with that "mimicing a racer", because that's exactly what have been doing over the past three years with some improvement (this is three years ago):


I'm not sure what the "GG" abbreviation stands for, though...

The compliment about filming should go to my mother who kindly filmed me - all the skiing in the video is in Italy, Dolomites, resort of Falcade and Alpe Lusía + vicinity...


First, I would like to draw your attention to how your skis perform in the snow. Heavy inclination without angulation has the side effect that you pressure you inside ski too much and you loose outside ski pressure. Before rushing off to the boot fitter to get your alignment checked try lifting your inside ski up in the air when turning. This will force you to balance over your outside ski and that in turn will improve how your skis perform. Inclination is ok if your skis are tracking without drifting all through the turn but you are loosing outside ski pressure at the end of each turn. Dont try to get your inside hand as close to the snow as possible. Try to level your shoulders as you come to the fall line and after. Like it or not, loosing that outside ski pressure at the end of the turn is because of banking. And banking is inclination gone bad. If your outside ski was carving edge locked and cleanly I would not say a word.

This is really where I would begin. I could mention many thins that stand out to me but they all boil down to this little flaw. Fix it and you are on the right track improving your skiing.

One more thing really stands out to me. I would like to draw your attention to your rhythm and your determination and your devotion to turning. Now its is very inefficient and inconsistant looking to me. It has to do with your outside ski loosing tracktion at the end of the turn so its coupled to what I said above. You are loosing momentum and therefore your performance level is way below your activity level. You are trying very hard to do stuff but you are not getting satisfactory results. Focus on getting those skis carving all through the turn and aim for a powerfull turn exit.

BTW, those inside ski carved balley turns are very really cool looking. I go Ouch when I think about what that would be dooing to my knees....

Thank you very much for the feedback, I'll try to keep the levelled shoulders and the proper arm position in mind.

Those carved balley turns are a part of excercise set which should prepare you for funcarving, which is what I did nearly solely until I realized that I should work myself towards more versatility (check the second video in my comments on Rusty's feedback)... The excercise should be performed with the bindings set quite softer than usually, because sometimes the edge locks and you go over - in this case it can hurt your knee if the binding does not release, but if it's set properly, then it's relatively innocent excercise even if you make that mistake of being much too in front/should you fall over...


 




Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post




  I second therusty's suggestion.  Heluvaskier is a former collegiate racer who has made significant improvement in his skiing over the past two years with a well thought out training program.  Drop him a private message on the forum and see if he'll give you some  suggestions on training after analyzing your video.

Welcome to Epic and have fun on the slopes this season!
 

Thank you, I'll definitely check that skier out!:)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiteebow View Post

Nice skiing-great music!
 

Thank you, I'm a big jazz fan and therefore thought that a fine relaxed jazz piece will suit the video better than some noisy fast metal...


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

 Not much doubt in my mind that that's Jimmy Smith on the organ.

Very close!:) It's Joey DeFrancesco!:)


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 I just want to drop by to say that inclination is not leaning.  They are similar in that both are seen as a tilting of the whole skier.

Inclination is tilting with weight dominance on the outside ski.

Leaning is tilting with weight dominance on the inside ski.

Inclination is not bad, doing it wrong is bad; leaning is often a failed attempt at inclination.  Learning to do it wrong results in many errors, skidding and divergence to name two.  therusty is right, you are leaning in as opposed to using inclination.  

What some folks do to fix this, is to avoid inclination altogether and use angulation right from the start of the turn.  Learning to do this wrong also results in errors, throwing the hip inside to make edge angles, riding in the back seat to name two.

Others suggest that it is best to use inclination from start to fall-line, and then to use angulation from fall-line onwards as necessary.  This approach avoids the risk of throwing the hip inside and back to create the initial edge angle but still risks leaning in.

In my opinion, if you like to ski this way, there is no need to avoid inclination. You simply need to learn how to do it while maintaining weight dominance on the outside ski.

Try lightening the inside ski throughout the turn.  Begin the turn by flexing the outside leg, and allowing the body to switch sides.  You'll need to get some weight on the tip of the ski to start the turn, so you'll have to pull the new outside ski back hard between turns.  Let the inside ski just graze the snow, or keep it slightly lifted through the turn. That will guarantee outside ski dominance.

BTW: where did you learn that rowing action between turns?

 

Thank you very much for your feedback, too, BigE!, I'll keep that in mind and will try to angulate more during the second half of the turn!:)

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Rusty hit on something that I would like to explore deeper. The pelvis and the hips. The up, over, and down movement gets the hips into the new turn but the price for using that movement is all that the extra distance traveled by the hips. Compensating for this usually means either moving the pelvis and hips faster through that path, or adding some sort of delay move to the path of the feet and skis so the hips can catch up with the skis. What I see is a bit of both,
  •  since your pelvis is moving faster due to the greater distance it's traveling, controlling it accurately is much more difficult. When you get too far inside this should tell you your not being as accurate with your hip and pelvis as you could be. How do you change this? Either by moving the pelvis and hips slower and over more time, or by taking a more direct path that doesn't require the up move and can be done at a slower overall speed (less distance over the same time frame). Think sine wave instead of square wave.

Does the "more direct hips and pelvis path" indirectly suggest more crossunder and less "crossover" movement ?

  • The skis are slowed down with the skid (the loss of edge purchase of the outside ski). So if you only eliminated the skid, then your pelvis would end up further behind the feet. So in a odd way the skid allows the body to catch up and sometimes pass the feet. Since the pelvis moves away from the skis before moving into the new turn this sets up a closed loop that feeds upon itself. You try to correct for this by dropping the pelvis quicker into the new turn. All that does is feed the closed loop though. A rounder path by the feet is an option but that has limited usefulness since you do not maintain edge pressure and purchase on the outside ski. Adding more range of motion to the flex and extend (pressure control skill pool) is a better option as long as the movements are towards the next turn instead of up and away from the skis before moving into the new turn.

The common thread here is a more direct path by the pelvis would facilitate more accurate pelvic and hip movements since they wouldn't be moving up away from the skis (a delay move) and would also facilitate keeping more pressure on the outside ski since they are not moving away from the skis, which would facilitate better balance and edge purchase through more of the turn. So how do we do that? Instead of extending up before moving towards the new turn, try moving towards the turn before moving up.

Do I understand this correctly that I should bring my center of mass lower/closer to snow and start the forward/inside movement even earlier in the turn, then ?
 
 



Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post




Why move up at all?

Does this mean that I should avoid moving up at all, even at steeps ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

therusty, look at Tomas nailing that White Pass turn :



Tomas, this turn came to you by accidet but its exactly what therusty talked about earlier in his posting. This is not a proper Whit Pass turn. I would rather call it a White Pass turn initiation. Your weight is totally on your new inside ski at the initiation of your new turn. It all started in previous turn to the right where you insted of what you usually do, lean onto you inside ski, kept the pressure on both skis and sufficiently over your outside ski. This you did by anuglating insted of banking, which I repeat, is inclination gone bad. Check for this in my first posting. The result was momentum you were not prepared for. This is also what I was talking about in my first posting. You lack momentum and rebound in your normal skiing. You have no saved energy that you can explosively project forward into transition and into the new turn. So, you were caught off balance and your old inside ski was lifted off the snow. To regain balance you did all the right moves. Here you can actually see how you start the turn by inclination in frames 1 and 2 and then you angulate in frame 3. This montage also shows a ILE transition to finish up your left turn. Looking very good. Nice job. Well done. Pay attention to your inside left hand dropping behind in frame 3. This is what therusty also commented on. Read his excellent posting very thoroughly. Your inside arm dropping behind is actually a leftover move from planting your outside pole, the pole plant. I see you frequently bringing that outside arm forward and to compensate for that you drop your outside arm back. You are planting your poles in the wrong direction. Insted of reaching forwards to plant your pole try to swing it in an arc arround the outside and lightly "tap" it down the fall line. A drill for this is drop the poleplant out of your skiing and after you can do that comfortably start learning to do it like I explained above. When you carve like this I dont really think you need to plant at all. It should be optional. If it helps you then yes but now its only wrecking your skiing. Dropping the poleplant does not mean you have to stop bringing your arms forwards like you do at transition. Its a good moove that you still can do. Actually it becomes easier if you drop your pole plant.

What does this "ILE" abbreviation mean ? I think I've seen it before, but I have always been wondering what it means exactly...

Thank you for your feedback on the pole plant, too, I'll keep that in mind and see if I can drop the pole plant completely, at least in the long and medium turns...



Check out this frame capture. I would say you are looking like a pro. I would say there is nothing wrong with this frame or this turn or turn transition. Its right after that huge jump where you were airborn at least 30m  . You look like a WC skier free skiing. The right movements are there, just get rid of that haniging towards the inside of the turn putting to much of your weight on the inside ski. You are nicely angulated, your skis are arcing, your upper body is calm and steady and in balance, your arms are out to the sides and down, your shoulders are levelled, your shins are parallel, your back is hunched rounded and curved, your head is dropped, your are well balanced over your skis, weight forwards. Lifting that inside arm and feeling steching tention in your inside hip area are signes you are doing the right movements.



BTW, I think your carving in a tuck is great skiing. You also seem to be able to get in a low tuck. And carve at the same time. Good hip and leg work.

Thank you for your kind words - I'm happy to know that at least some turns were close to perfect:)

Your SL segment shows much of what has been commented on before. Nothing new except for the heavy rotation you do. You throw your body arround very quickly at the beginning of the segment becaue you want to come arround quickly. This together with your typical up move (leftover from the past) makes you lose pressure in the beginning of the tun and your ski edges grab the snow after apex. Insted you should do what you do later on in that segment as the pist flats out. Work with your legs. Flex and extend. Flex through the transiton and extend into the turn. That kind of turning is also called reacing SL turns. Your reach out with your legs to pass the gate. You yourself are skiing on the inside of the gate. CoM moves as little as possible in the horisontal plane. And the vertical plane. Only forward and down the slope. The less you move your CoM the smoother you ski. Here is one last capture showing good and bad form. Now when you know what to do it should not be a problem stating your advanced level once and for all. BTW, if you look at this last photo montage you can pretend that the frames are from the same turn. I did this on purpouse so that you and others can see what I mean when I say that angulation should be dynamic and used when needed only just as any other move you do. Start out with inclination in high C where its important that you hook your skis up in a carve and you set the gross parameters of the turn. Your projection into the new turn or whatever you want to call it. That means falling down the slope if you are crossing perpendicular at transition. Then letting the skis catch up. Then applying angulation and counter. Right after apex the forces start to really build up and quickly. You need quick muscle reactions and prefect timing. Timing is much more important than big muscles. Skiing done properly is also efficient skiing. Bad technique werars you our. Good technique also werars you out but you are at compleatly different perfoming level. Here is the photomontage:



Both photos are taken from the same moment in the turn. Notice how the knees are pointing into the turn in the upper frame leaving the hips to the outside and how that is not so in the lower frame. Also, check out the long leg short leg in lower frame .

Hope this helps,

Tom

Thanks a lot again, Tom, looks like have a lot of work in front of me with the slalom turns, especially at the steeps...


Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Check out the White Pass turn in this video:


Wow, I never known that robots can ski, too... :o

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

therusty, look at Tomas nailing that White Pass turn :

 

That's not a white pass turn. In a white pass turn, the edge change is initiated with 100% of the weight on the new inside ski. In this turn, the new inside ski is rolled to flat as a result of lifting of the other ski. Watch how just before the still the lifting motion tilts the upper body into the new turn. This is what happens when you don't flex the inside leg and don't let the hips flow across.

Regards,
Rusty

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Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post



 

You did not read my posting closely enough. I said it wasent a white pass turn, more like a white pass entry or something. I think it was kind of funny he had something of the sort in the video clip. And that the outcome was different. Better. Sorry you did not see the connection and got hung up on detail level insted .
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E, cross under transitions certainly are an option here. I was going more for a refined cross over though. I think everyone is on the same page about how his release of the downhill ski occurs as a function of moving his pelvis up instead of towards the new turn. All I'm doing is expanding on what that stiff downhill leg forces him to do to get that ski released and how that affects his ability to maintain edge purchase and balance on the outside ski.

Releasing edge pressure by moving the hips vertically up (and slightly back up the hill) works but the "upward detour" taken by the body introduces a need for a larger, stronger and faster movement of the body just to get it inside the next turn in a timely way. This is why IMO the biggest challenge for J3rry is his release problem and we see it manefesting itself as both lateral balance and outside ski pressure issues. If he wants to use a cross over transition movement, eliminating the road block imposed by the release problem is the key to eliminating the subsequent problems.

How we do that could involve a variety of activities. Myself, I think some sideslips would help introduce a predictable and controlable release without the need for any signifigant upward projection of the pelvis and body. If some occurs but doesn't impede the body moving into the new turn I don't see it as a big thing. Especially since it is a cross over transition I'm talking about. I'm very confident once J3rry is comfortable releasing the downhill ski without the big up move all the other drills suggested so far would be much easier for him to execute properly.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 10/23/09 at 10:23am
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It is possible to cross-over without going up.  What matters is how long you can hold the neutral/flat ski through transition.

What I am envisioning is to use inclination through transition, but tilt off the uphill ski as opposed to what he is doing off the downhill ski.  This is more "drill like" than real skiing, but IMO, the first step is to get him away from such a strong engagement of the inside ski.  The remainder of his leaning inward movements would need to slow down as he cannot fall onto the inside ski, or start the turn on the inside ski.

I'm advocating an early weight transfer with a slightly different direction of cross-over created by strongly pulling back the feet and patiently allowing the body to cross-over.  I'm suggesting he delete the big dive inside, with a controlled entry.


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TDK,

I did read the posting and explained why it was not a white pass entry. I can see how it looks like a white pass turn. The details I got hung up on are critical to the success of the drill. I know this because I've screwed up white pass turns every imaginable way (including broken teeth and with my legs crossed).

Regards,
Rusty

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E - if we stick to the epic definition of cross over as being a ILE turn where we at the end of the turn extend our inside leg to match our through out the turn exended outside leg and voult over into the new turn by flexing the old outside leg as we are perpendicular to the slope and both legs are equally long we have no other option than going up and then down again. Or you need to define it some other way.

jasp - you are making things way too complicated. Way too complicated. The problem is that the OP puts too much weight on his inside ski. He is leaning in. He is banking. Since he already did some turns that were ok he just needs to find out when that happens. An on snow coach could be able to ski behind him and call out when he did a correct move. Here on the internet we can simply just make him aware of what is wrong and give some cues or drills to work on. Then he goes back and makes a new video. Thats how it works.

Guy needs to:
- incline without banking
- hook his skis up in a carve in the high C part of the turn
- stop inclining and start angulating at the latest when he comes to apex
- pressuring that outside ski
- balancing over his outside ski
- advance his inside arm and lift it up
- keep his outside arm down
- keep his shoulders levelled as soon as he comes to apex
- stop making poleplants
- keep on rowing
- read the terrain better
- watch out for traffic and kids 

______________________________________________________________________________

OOOOOPs... didnt see the long reply the OP did earlier on........ but this stands for now.
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 j3rry,

UP is a movement that loses a lot of pressure on the ski and makes re-engaging it difficult.  

I just can't see why "up" has to happen especially on steeps -- where you'll get massive and late pressure as the body comes down onto the skis again.  

I was asking JASP why he was suggesting an up move is necessary. I'm just not sure I understood his response.
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 TDK6,

I don't want to limit the notion of a cross over to inside leg extension.  The inside leg extension can trigger a cross over, but so does outside leg relaxation.
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Tomas, so thats you. They guy carving in the black and yellow jacket. Ive seen that many times on youtube. I knew from the first few seconds of your video that you posted here in your first post that I had seen you ski before. Now after watching older video I see its the tuck position that gives it away . I always wanted to be able to funcarve like that but no offence, it really can hurt your skiing. Ill pass for the time being.

GG - coach from www.youcanski.com
ILE - Inside Leg Extention, its when you come into transition and you extend your inside leg, transition extended
OLF- Outside Leg Flexion, its when you come into transition and you flex your outside leg, transition flexed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 TDK6,

I don't want to limit the notion of a cross over to inside leg extension.  The inside leg extension can trigger a cross over, but so does outside leg relaxation.
 

Cross under and cross over are the same thing. In one case you are looking at the body and have the skis cross under and in the other you are looking at the skis and having the body cross over. Same thing. For this reason there has been invented a new meaning for the cross over and that is basicly the ILE type of turn where you vault your CoM over your skis on extended legs. Your body moves over your skis. In the cross under your skis are crossing under as you flex your legs at transition. Its a gross estimation that you eather accept with all its limitations as such or deep dive into very complicated definitions.

Offcourse you can trigger a cross over by OLF and then extend your inside leg to cross over. Thats why I try to say ILF type of turn. Note that the OP has no clue to any of this. Yet. KISS.
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 You can also do a cross-over with retraction. 

What really matters is what the skis are doing.  If you exit a turn into a traverse (no matter how short)  then ANY release will start a cross-over. 

That is why restricting cross-over as part of a specific transition technique is too much of a simplification.
 
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TDK, I agree it is simple but to be honest I don't see a lot of discussion of why his stance gets so far inside in the first place. too much weight on the inside ski is a symptom.Terrain variations giving him so many balancing problems is another symptom. So is the need for upward movements to reduce pressure through the transitions. Changing how he actively moves to deal with these symptoms doesn't address the root problem though. Until he changes his release all of these problem will continue to happen.

He's reducing the pressure on that downhill ski by moving away from it before the edge change (the up move), then he's moving strongly across the skis to overpower whatever edge purchase he still has because he still hasn't rolled the downhill ski flat enough to release it. So even though OLF and ILE certainly can cause a release that approach causes a release more as a consequence than as a primary objective. How much simpler would it be for him to start the new turn by releasing the old turn with a simple rolling of the ski to a near flat edge angle? Let the legs ariticulate as needed to support and enhance the edge release. Also exploiting Gravity and Inertia's effects of immediately redirecting the body into the new turn (direction change) once the old turn is released. This allows us to save the strong lateral movements for only those times when we want to expedite the transition. Like in the gates. This eliminates the too strong thrusting movements and all the consequences of those too strong movements. 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

You can also do a cross-over with retraction. 
I told you, they are the same. You can also do a cross-over and cross-under with retraction and extention.

What really matters is what the skis are doing.  If you exit a turn into a traverse (no matter how short)  then ANY release will start a cross-over. 
Why not a cross under? Why is it so that a cross under cannot be performed if your skis traverse across the hill?

That is why restricting cross-over as part of a specific transition technique is too much of a simplification.
Thats the difference between good and bad teaching and why too technical people are usually bad ones.
 
 

Ok, so tell me the "correct" definitions to cross under and cross over. Preferably so that the OP also understands what you mean.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

TDK, I agree it is simple but to be honest I don't see a lot of discussion of why his stance gets so far inside in the first place. too much weight on the inside ski is a symptom.Terrain variations giving him so many balancing problems is another symptom. So is the need for upward movements to reduce pressure through the transitions. Changing how he actively moves to deal with these symptoms doesn't address the root problem though. Until he changes his release all of these problem will continue to happen.

He's reducing the pressure on that downhill ski by moving away from it before the edge change (the up move), then he's moving strongly across the skis to overpower whatever edge purchase he still has because he still hasn't rolled the downhill ski flat enough to release it. So even though OLF and ILE certainly can cause a release that approach causes a release more as a consequence than as a primary objective. How much simpler would it be for him to start the new turn by releasing the old turn with a simple rolling of the ski to a near flat edge angle? Let the legs ariticulate as needed to support and enhance the edge release. Also exploiting Gravity and Inertia's effects of immediately redirecting the body into the new turn (direction change) once the old turn is released. This allows us to save the strong lateral movements for only those times when we want to expedite the transition. Like in the gates. This eliminates the too strong thrusting movements and all the consequences of those too strong movements. 

IMHO you are still making it way too complicated. And there is lots of input in this thread on why OP is ending up with too much weight on his inside ski. Its very simple. He is leaning into the turn too strongly. Why? Its nothing more than a bad habbit he's stuck with from his fun carving days. He stands on his inside foot and inclines too far inside the turn. He is trying to get close to the snow. In his old days it was the state of the art to hugg the pist but with correct movements he cannot get even close to the snow. And the relese is not a problem yet. If he has no pressure on outside ski why relese? First he needs to keep his weight on the outside ski and that he can do by not standing on the inside foot and the excess leaning into the turn he can fix by angulating.
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 Crossover: The movement of the CM over the skis is responsible for the change in orientation between feet and CM. In short, the CM is moving downhill faster than the skis are moving under the body.

Crossunder: the movement of the feet under the Cm is responsible for the change in orietation between feet and CM. In short, the skis are moving faster across the hill than the CM is moving downhill.
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It's funny but IMO the inside leg usage in the funcarving video show a wider range of motion and better overall balance through a wider range of motion. It also doesn't show the staccatto up and over release move. Neither do the tuck turns. So the question remains why add it to your skiing? It delays getting your pelvis into the new turn by taking a detour that you really don't need to take. Work on a cleaner release and the more direct movement of the pelvis into the new turn will happen. Sideslips are still where I would start since to do them cleanly you cannot use the staccatto up and over move. Then it's just a matter of expanding that lateral range of motion until you can do the funcarving range of motion while just skiing. As far as inclination verses angulation, different systems have different opinions about how much of either is correct. My opinion is that as you extend the legs and body through the entire range of extending, the option of using angulation is eliminated since it require a certain amount of flex in the leg and hip joints. Restricting you range of motion so you can alway use angulation? I would say versatility through a wider range of motion needs to include situations where you end up that extended. Which short curcuits the whole inclination verses angulation debate. You need both and the more situations you can use either at will the more versatile a skier you are. 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 Crossover: The movement of the CM over the skis is responsible for the change in orientation between feet and CM. In short, the CM is moving downhill faster than the skis are moving under the body.

Crossunder: the movement of the feet under the Cm is responsible for the change in orietation between feet and CM. In short, the skis are moving faster across the hill than the CM is moving downhill.

These are not the "popular" definitions used here at epic. When we ski we dont move our CM. We use muscles that results in movements. What good are definitions that have no whatsover connection to our body movements. For example, how do you know if your CM moves down the hill quicker than your skis across? What if they move at same speed? Or 60/40?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

It's funny but IMO the inside leg usage in the funcarving video show a wider range of motion and better overall balance through a wider range of motion. It also doesn't show the staccatto up and over release move. Neither do the tuck turns. So the question remains why add it to your skiing? It delays getting your pelvis into the new turn by taking a detour that you really don't need to take. Work on a cleaner release and the more direct movement of the pelvis into the new turn will happen. Sideslips are still where I would start since to do them cleanly you cannot use the staccatto up and over move. Then it's just a matter of expanding that lateral range of motion until you can do the funcarving range of motion while just skiing. As far as inclination verses angulation, different systems have different opinions about how much of either is correct. My opinion is that as you extend the legs and body through the entire range of extending, the option of using angulation is eliminated since it require a certain amount of flex in the leg and hip joints. Restricting you range of motion so you can alway use angulation? I would say versatility through a wider range of motion needs to include situations where you end up that extended. Which short curcuits the whole inclination verses angulation debate. You need both and the more situations you can use either at will the more versatile a skier you are. 

I dont know if sideslips is a good drill for anyone trying to carve clean and powerful arcs. Maybe, I just think that its a question of letting the skis do their work, run along their edges, and balance over them. Its all about what the skis do. You have to be patient. OP is not patient and he wants bigger angles and he wants tighter turns. Thats why he rushes everything. Funcarving is action all the way through were you at moderate to slow speeds still slam yourself onto the snow and your edge angles are not in proportion to gravity vs centrifugal forces.

The reason why inclination should be used is that you offset your CM and project yourself into the turn. Most skiers dont do this enough. But this is a week position. Angulation is should be used when you need more power. If you stand up and lean sideways against the wall in an inclined position there is not much pressure on the palm of your hand. Angulate and notise how the pressure increases. Now push as much as you can. Pay attention that you are pushing off of your outside foot. If you were to hold against someone opening a door your way you would be resisting the person pushing at you by standing sideways shoulder against the door, angulating and pushing off of your outside foot. This is like the third phase of a carved turn.

The relese is important but in order to be able to relese you need to be able to arc properly and to do that all the way through out the whole turn. A good drill is to do this on a very flat slope and take your time at transitions. Increase pitch and speed.
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