internet skis

you pretty much took the words out of my mouth.  A ski shop is a business. It's not my job to keep them open by paying twice the price for a pair of skis; it's their job to figure out a way to stay open, given that they (theoretically) can't sell those skis for half of what they do.  There's nothing stopping brick and mortar ski shops from selling online.  Sierra Skis seems to be doing just fine with that business model, and a common argument seems to be that selling skis online is so much easier than having an actual store that it puts the stores at a disadvantage.  If you're already doing it the hard way, you might as well do it the easy way too.  I have asked guys at my local ski shop about matching prices, and they don't budge (although they do throw in some freebies with service, which is fine), so I don't bother anymore.  

fwiw, I have a pair of 08/09 Extemes and PX12s being mounted by them right now for $80 (which is a big increase from the $45 I paid for my last pair two years ago).  Even with the extra expense of mounting, my total cost is less than their beginning-of-season-sale price for the Extremes flat (~$450 vs. $395 after mounting), not to mention that their sale price on the same bindings is ~$200.  Not to sound self-righteous, but no one is entitled to your business, especially if somebody else has exactly the same thing for $250 cheaper.   

There is much "apples and oranges" compared in this thread. People are comparing early/mid season to late season pricing, of course the end of the season pricing will be less. Right now Sierra/Al's/ect will have the same prices on this years gear as your local shop. Most any of you local shops, given the opportunity will either match or come close to any online price (if they have it in stock or it is still available) when you are comparing the same model and size (not a AC30 in a 184 for $429 that is on odd size and all the only size they have left) .

Shop any 09-10 model right now (and until the beginning of February) and you will find the same prices on line or in the stores. 

Look, all I said was that if you want a local shop around - for maintenance and service and to save valuable vacation time, or for whatever reason - why not go in and talk with them about what you want?  If you don't want to support local shops then don't bother, but this "Let them figure it out themselves" attitude just tells me that you don't care about local shops, which is fine but let's not pretend otherwise.  

Some people are fine with an impersonal/big-box experience, or spending their vacation time getting their gear serviced or bought.  

There are some angry-sounding people on this thread.  I just don't see the problem with trying to help local shops give you what you need.  If a local shop sucks, then let them go down, but not all shops suck - an awful lot of them are pretty good people just trying to make ends meet.  
Edited by Bob Lee - 10/5/09 at 11:48am

Fat chance.

My local (until I moved a couple of months ago) shop was selling 2 year old skis for 30-40% off within the past two months. Want some PE's for $350 - I know where you can get them. New skis are at list, or max 10% off + mounting!

My second to closest shop is at list and will be until March, when they'll try to blow the stuff out, and I will have bought something new from Sierra, Colorado Ski, Dawgcatching . levelnine or one of the others in January for 40-50% off.

I was at the Peter Glenn "blow out" at the Broward convention center this weekend, and took pity on any poor sap who bought something there. Mythic Riders at $550, two year old Rossi's at 30% off - a royal screwing was had by any and all that bought anything there. On the other hand, I got some excellent deals on diving and snorkeling stuff by another vendor they brought in , and had a great time in the Keys with it yesterday.

It's got to be tough if you're livelihood is linked to a retail sporting goods shop. There is just alot of gear available on the net and I understand when you have a store your costs of being in business and opening the door everyday preclude being able to offer the same price discounts.

I feel guilty as well when I buy a ski on the net and then need to go and get it mounted. Yea its business for the shop, but it also reinforces to that same shop the ugly reality of how the internet is cuttting into their livelihood and taking revenue away from them.

My wife owns a clothing store and she has had people come in and want to take pictures of clothing etc for the purpose of helping them get a similar gamet somewhere else. Its really rankles her. Retail is just a tough biz and you really are dependent on the loyalty and support from your customers and you hope to be adding to that same base not having the internet compromise it.

The difference is that the brick and mortar places have to maintain retail space, which is much more expensive for several reasons than just having warehouse space.  And most people need that retail presence to get their skis mounted, which was the point of this thread.  I notice that you get your skis mounted in a b&m place.  If those go away due to pressures from non b&m internet places, where will you get your skis mounted and tuned?  

Penny wise but pound foolish?  Just a thought.  

I'll add levelnine and EVOGear to the list of outfits that have figured out how to have a B&M and an internet business going just fine. It's a new business model that the internet has affected, and trying to ignore it won't work.

Some of my local retailers have been trying to ignore the internet reality. I've had the same situation trying to give a local retailer a chance at selling me skis or boots at "close to" internet pricing, which they then say they can't approach. For sure I use them to do mounting and tuning (even if they do a better job at the hill), but there's no way I'll pay $200 more for a pair of skis.

I've been standing in line waiting to take out my newly tuned skis, and seen people in front paying $225 for a Giro Fuse, full price for gaperwear etc, and seen people overpay by at least 100%. One local shop only sells my beloved Arcteryx at full price because the market will bear it. Okey doke.I now have about one of each Acrteryx piece in about all their colors, and if they'd have settled for a smaller portion of profit I would have bought it there - otherwise thank you Sierra Trading Post and SAC / Tramdock.

How many out there have been to a dealer for a car then let them compete at the internet after deciding what you want - how many are crying crocodile tears for those car dealers that aren't there anymore. Right. The b&m shops need to get with the program or move on.

I think you're missing the point.  Simplified point -> The retail shops need to charge more than internet dealers to keep their doors open because their expenses are higher.  You can't get your skis serviced or bindings mounted at the internet dealers.  If the b&m stores have to close because internet dealers have lower overhead, where will you get your skis serviced and bindings mounted?  

Now because this is the interwebz someone will always have a horror story to counterpoint a general case, but can we agree that there is a legitimate place for local ski shops and that this isn't as simple as just finding the lowest price and that it's at least worth considering paying a little more for goods in order to keep a local shop in business so that you can get your stuff serviced?  
Edited by Bob Lee - 10/5/09 at 11:47am

 comments: There is no "everyone" buyer of ski gear out there, (as in everyone wants a deal). In skiing you have consumers at both ends of the affluence/not so much spectrum, and they have entirely different needs and, therefore, buying practices.

There is also no "every shop" out there. In my area, there are shops fortunate to serve an  affluent clientele (location and marketing concept) and they charge what it will bear: suggested retail, and still, everyone's happy. Other shops try very hard to compete, and offer up deals as best they can, to a different clientele. And no shop makes anything on dirtbag-ski-bums (affectionately called out) and tough minded working class locals. forget it.

Clearly we need shops. For me, the best shops have a strong presense by the owner or top mgr. Otherwise, stuff goes badly almost all the time. If you love the business, you'll be in your shop.

(Some B&M establishments have a very poor attitude about returns and exchanges and guarantees compared to net shops. The Internet businesses offer bomber guarantees so people are not afraid to pull the trigger and get stuck with something. I hate to complain about a local shop, but can they be more flexible without losing income?)

As the comments indicate, there are plenty of people who shop at local ski stores as if the internet did not exist.  There is still a huge percentage of the population that is afraid to buy on line, or that simply shops for ski gear like they always have, with a lot of reliance on the shop employee's knowledge. 

My buddy owns a succesful local shop, but does a lot of his business off his web site, He claims that about 70-80% of his customers pay full retail for skis because they buy early season, which mystifies me, but certainly works for him. 

There is probably a market nich developing for a business that just does tunes, base repair, and mounts out of a small shop with no inventory and almost no overhead.  When the environment changes, like it or not, the dinosaurs die.

I don't think I'm the one missing the point, so let me try some simplerfied points -

There are shops that are both retail and internet and appear to be doing just fine. Some examples - Sierraskis.com, evogear.com, levelnine.com. They have both b&m and internet. I've been to their stores and I've ordered over the web with them, and have had generally excellent experience at both.

They WILL mount your bindings before they ship if you like. If you know your bsl, just tell them and you're good. In some instances, they charge no more and your skis arrive ready to go.

I fully understand all the arguments of why it's important to support the b&m stores, and I also will not pay, what in some instances amounts to double to do so. You continue to say  "paying a little more". Well a pair of skis at one place for $370, and another for $700 isn't a little more in my opinion. I would gladly pay "a little more" to support my local shop, but it's about what a long weekend of lift tickets in LCC will cost me, so , sorry.

Where will I go to get the skis mounted - well I go to my local shop and pay a frair ($40-$50) for a kid with a jig and drill to screw in the things.. What happens if they're not there, because too many people like me said they won't pay double the amount for a pair of skis? Another shop. Or at the shop at the hill. It's not like this is brain surgery (cue the genius who likens it to brain surgery and what'll happen to your knee etc....), and maybe it'll become a very specialized industry with binding mounters etc.

And, just to throw junk in the game, with many skis now having their bindings on rails, what do you really need that shop for? For advice? I skied more days in UT and CO last year than my local shop owner has in his life. What's he going to tell me about shralping big lines when his usual weekend jaunt is to Okemo? Where exactly is his value-added to pay 100% more (a little bit?). And let's not get into buying boots there for his "expertise" in fitting. Or maybe his reluctance to order additional sets of Booster straps because he doesn't really know what they are or how to fit them? Puleese.

Look, I like my local guy, but we've agreed a few years ago that he can't compete with internet ski prices, and I've understood that as a gear whore, I can't feed my habit with his prices. I go to him for all my ancillary needs (as long as they're not skis, boots, poles, and gear), and he takes care of my mounting and tuning, and I pay retail.

Trust me, you're missing the point. I suggest that you either read my previous posts carefully, or just move on.  

Take your skis to a high end tune shop that does not sell gear. Problem solved.

Have you tried to use the internet to find a local or at least somewhat convenient place that mounts bindings?  Even here in dead center flat lands NC over three hours from ski country there are at least two shops (one stable, a few others that come and go each season).  Anyway, their prices are pretty high compared to the internet, but I'm pretty sure they would mount anything for anyone assuming the bindings are on the indemnified list.

Then, there's also this other option.  It costs a bit more:





Costs a LOT more if you mess it up!

It's called "Overhead".  Local shops have to pay for employees, lease on the store, utilities, maintenance, etc.  This is pretty much non existent with an Internet store.  Sure they have to pay for storage of the merchandise, employees to ship them, cost of the website...etc, but those are far less than a store.  That's why there is such a markup.   Now Sierra-Skis have merged it into one, on-line and retail store.  Wonder why they can offer such good prices and are successful...because they want to make money.  Only the Strong survive...

Now all you people that complain about $40 for a binding mount, c'mon you just saved hundreds of dollars on your equipment by buying on-line.  You need to find a shop and stick to it, take all your equipment there, get to know the techs and employees (maybe a girl eh)...shit go out for drinks.  My last pair of skis i got from Sierra-Ski was my Watea 101's and mounted barons on them at my local shop.  Took them to my shop i always go to, cost me $20 (reg $45 for just a mount) and they did a tune to make sure i had a true base and my angles were right.

I buy whatever i want on-line, I'm not persuaded by anyone to do otherwise.  It's MY money, i work for it.  I also support my local shop by bringing ALL my equipment there, and purchasing smaller things that would cost the same after shipping anyways.  I even help them by tell my friends to go there, and they appreciate it, because the times are tough and they understand why I'm going for the best price. 

Which reminds me of one deal i just got recently.  My new boots, Tecnica Dragon 120's.  I found a new pair of 2010 for $724, on-line of course.  They matched it and gave me free footbeds ($40 value), and basic fitting, because I'm a "Good" Customer.  I went to them for a fit to see if they matched my foot.  He knew i was going to buy on-line, yet gave me a deal. 

Take the skis to your local shop and get them mounted. While you are there look around and see what else they offer. I buy skis online and take them to my favorite shop because I trust them and care to give them some business. I also buy my boots from them and they grind and tune for me yearly .I also look for  any incidental item I might need like ski socks or some wax  .
Support your local shop as best you can while balancing the need to shop wisely. Sometimes you need to consider the worth of doing business to support a local over the savings of dealing online. Always give your locals a shot at pleasing you. They may surprise you with what they can do for you and keep inside your budget parameters.

What do you actually use the shop for?  Personally, I only really need them for boot fitting, and the rare gouge in the bases of my skis.  Obviously many people have their skis tuned there, but most people I know MIGHT have this done once per year.  It might be different out west or in larger ski areas, but I would think it would be very hard for shops in other areas to remain open on service alone. 

For us enthusiasts, how often do you go to the shop.  For me, I have been in 3 times over the past 3 years (two for boot fitting and adjustment, one when I took a chunk out of my base).  Personally, I would be willing to drive 2-3 hours for either of those services and I am sure many people on this site would be willing to do the same if not more.  As such, I would be willing to make the case that many ski shops will be closing their doors within the next 10 years leaving only the "elite" shops scattered throughout for these few important services.

As sad as it is to think about, I think I have to agree with you on that one.  With the internet, big box stores, and a schmattering of "elite" service shops there isn't much room for the little guy who's just trying to sell some skis, but doesn't live within a few miles of a mountain.

btw... the most I've paid for a mounting in the past six years is a twelve pack.  Does that make me a bad consumer??  

Not only is Phil 100% correct in this post, I'll go a little further........

First, let me reiterate, February/March pricing is not October pricing. If you want '09-10 gear now, you pay October prices. If you want it later....fine, buy it later.

Second, we are a web dealer and a B&M shop as well. We have deals from time to time but those are always on older gear. I have some coming up soon in fact, but said deals are not on current '09-10 product.

So.........................................

The webboxes don't sell you gear @ 60% off because they love you or because they are cool and want to make you a sweet deal b/c you are cool.

The webboxes sell you gear in February that they bought on closeout in December. They are making plenty of money on that stuff.

Overproduction from the manufacturers is the supply line for the webboxes and overproduction ebbs and flows. Last 3 years was a flow pattern. Currently it is ebbing. How much it will ebb remains to be seen.

If the number of closeouts from the mfrs dwindles then so will the quality and quantity of the offerings from the webboxes. If the current level of stupidity in the industry remains constant, then so will the supply of cheap gear in the spring.

The webboxes do not have a genius business plan. What they have is an industry that has gleefully overproduced for several years and that needs an outlet for goods. That's what the webboxes provide. And that's all they provide.

The ski industry has emptied the Glock into their right foot and they have now started with a fresh mag on their left. If they finish with that second magazine, they won't need to look around for a third one............they won't need it.

SJ

Jim, I also noticed that some of those sites selling the closeout gear weren't even stocking it and it was sometimes even drop shipped from the manufacturer. Nothing like selling it before you buy it!

I'm not quite sure I buy this generalization.

First, It may have to do with definitions. How exactly do you define "webbox"? I'm genuinely curious about this...

Second, there may be no "genius business plan", but the economic structure of selling via the web is a wee bit different than the classic B&M situation. Ignoring those structural differences is unrealistic. They very much define who can add what kind of value to the equation. That's gonna matter a bunch in a world where selling on the web is here to stay -  regardless of under-production or over-production in any given window of time.

The overwhelming percentage of web based sales are almost exclusively geared toward price. The amount of inline full priced goods sold online is microscopic compared to the later season sales numbers sold off price. The biggest shops that do online sales buy only a fraction of their inventory preseason. Generally, it's just enough to qualify as a dealer to meet the requirements to be an online seller. They then troll the marketplace for closeouts and that is what is online in February and later. If the excess inventory/closeouts are not there, then the late season giveaway prices won't be either.

Sure, there will always be a little stuff left over........no doubt about that. However, the volume of closeouts may someday not be there. If that happens, the biggest mass merchants won't have the quantity and hence the ability to make their margins and stay in business.

I'm not the pot nor the kettle here. I sell a nice number of skis face to face with quality information and proper service. I know Scott and Phil do the same. I also dabble in the online market as well but it's a minor part of our business. When I find a deal on some stuff I believe in, I'll buy it and pass it on. That is however, a small part of our business and it is a bonus for us, but not the basis for our business. Any dealer that relies on closeouts for the majority of their business may one day be struggling to make their mortgages.

SJ

It seems as though the idea being put out there right now is that there is a black-and-white decision to be made. Either you patronize local shops for your hard goods and pay a price premium, or you buy online and screw the local shop. I really don't see it that way at all. In my personal experience, you can get just as good prices from the local shop as you can from the internet, if you go about it correctly. I have two local shops near me. One is the established 'ski and bike' shop, which is the go-to ski and snowboard spot. The other is a little more generalized of a shop, more of an 'outdoor' store, but has a comprehensive ski/board department. I patronize the second one pretty much exclusively. I'm in there frequently enough that the manager and the boot fitter know me by name. I'm always very up front with them about what I'm looking for, and where I'm looking. They'll almost always match an internet price if I come in and show it to them. I have yet to pay what's on the sticker for anything, because I'm there often enough that they're happy to cut me a deal whenever they can. At the same time,I know if I end up spending $20 more on something on one occasion, I'll make it up when I get a deal on my next buy, or on my next service.

For example, I was in the shop today, scoping out racks and boxes for my girlfriend's Subaru. I chatted with the boot fitter about the racks, he offered me 20% off the rack I wanted, which worked out to about $15 more than I would have gotten it for online (although I would pay $15 shipping, so it was really a wash). As I'm about to leave, I run into the manager. We end up chatting for 45 minutes, during which he tells me he'll do my stonegrind, sharpen and wax for $25 total, tells me he can hook me up with a full snowboard/binding setup for about $150, offers to upgrade the toe straps on my snowboard bindings for free, and tells me not to buy any softgoods now, because they'll be on sale in a couple weeks anyways.

Moral of the story, build a relationship with your local shop. Don't be a customer, be a partner. I get tons of great deals because the guys at the shop know that I'm a loyal customer, and that I consistently recommend their shop to everyone who asks me. And if you're going to a 'multipurpose' shop, patronize them for the other things you need. I bought my latest kayak from the same guys this spring, and some camping gear as well. In the long run, you're shelling out less overall money than if you deal with the internet, and the level of service you're getting from your shop can't be beat.

If you think I'm going to spend an extra $800 on a pair of skis and bindings, you have seriously overestimated my wealth, and your store deserves to go bankrupt.

Bob, you've actually really hit the nail on the head here for me, and I didn't even completely realize it...but, a big part of my attitude comes from the fact that my local shop does suck. Not even thinking of pricing, but they are rude and arrogant, and I'm certainly not the only one who feels that way. Because of that general attitude, I have no interest in trying to bargain with them on ski prices. I will say that they have a lady in clothing who is wonderful and was extremely helpful when I bought my daughter a new ski jacket last fall, but the ski/shop guys really just suck, IMHO.
Luckily for me, I'm not that far from some ski hills and have a shop I like that's right on my way to my usual hill. Drop our skis off for tuning on Sunday afternoon, pick them up on Friday night. For emergencies, I use the shop on the hill. For most people, a local shop is probably more necessary than it is for me.

But, if there was a local shop that I liked and trusted, I'd probably be a lot more concerned about them staying around and finding out ways to bring them business.

  The hell with those guys then, I say.  

I do think we are going to see more streamlining for production. We are seeing it more on the softgoods side, try to special order DNA or Arc'teryx, very little (if anything) is available. I do think we are going to see it coming more on the hardgoods side soon.

I will add that the opinions here from most of us really do not matter as the industry is concerned, we are the lunatic fringe, we are the 20 in the 80/20 rule. We don't pay the bills for ski shops, ski areas and the industry as a whole. Joe & Jane Skier with their 2.5 kids pay the bills. FWIW, Joe and Jane don't even know Epicski (or ski forums) exists. How do I know this, they are my customers and I talk to them and for what it is worth, September was our best September ever. 

this year i got all new gear (skis, boots, bindings, jackets, gloves), so this is a timely discussion for me. the skis i bought (watea 84) i bought on line at the end of last season.  They were $280 at Sierra skis, more then half what i could find them at any local shop or anywhere else for that matter...how could i not? so i bought them, and slept like a baby that night.

boots were a totally different experience for me.  to find the right fit and adjust it the internet just doesn't cut it, i did it all through local shops. boot fitting for me is more of an artform, it requires trying on many different boots, then punching them out to fit me perfectly.  to me this never could have been done through the internet. to do this right, took expertise and time.

as for everything else, it was a mix, the jacket online, socks, local, goggles local, gloves on line, poles local, etc....

IMHO in this day and age, there are many different options, price, advice, availability, expertise, these are all things to balance.  did i need a expert to tell me which jacket i wanted? No,  but which boots where best for me, absolutely. when i could not find the gloves i wanted at a local shop, should i feel guilty i bought them online? or that i got my skies for such a ridiculously low price? i love both and think both have a place in this gearheads world.