Just joined a race team, need some gear advice

I am a college student and just joined the club team (top racers usually go to nationals).  I have no race experience, but have been skiing for about 7 years, frequently 5-6 days per week during Pa's relatively short season.  I usually get out about 50-60 times per season and have logged about 30-40 hours of lessons each season.  Obviously I am not going to make the A team and in all likelihood wont even make the B team, so it is more a training season, althougth I may try a few races towards the end of the season to get a sense of it.  I have always skied shorter skis as my home mountain only has 700ft vt.  My current setup which is ready to be retired is Head iSupershape 165 and Technica Diablo boots.  Given that the mountain where the team trains is also small, we only focus on SL and GS. I will be on the slopes 4 times per week, 3 training, 1 free ski.  stats- 5'7", 145lbs, male, 18yo, athletic.

This year team can get Head equipment at cost, so I would prefer to focus on their line, but obviously not at a high cost of usability.  We have a boot fitter coming from a shop that is actually the shop in my home town in 3 weeks to take orders and offer his services at greatly reduced prices.  While this is a great deal financially, I will not have any opportunity to demo any equipment before purchase since I did not participate in the demo day last spring.  I have talked to several members of the team about this problem, but they said that since they had nothing to base anything off of, they had no suggestions.  I have yet to meet any of the coaches. 

So, I have a few questions:

Does anyone know what "at cost" means in terms of what I can expect to pay (probably looking for 2 pairs of skis and new boots)?

Should I go for race stock skis or stay at the consumer level?  I will definitely be getting a pair of skis at both the GS and SL radius, but am concerned about the flex. 

I am thinking I should go for the 130 level boot and maybe have it softened a bit?  Most of the team members that I have talked to have gone for foam injected liners--is this necessary for someone at my point?  Assuming the boot fits, is there any real difference between brands? 

How far do I need to go tuning wise?  I have been giving my supershapes a .5base, 3 side and have rather liked it, so I may start there and go higher on the edge depending on conditions.  Since wax gets expensive fast, I have been using an all temp wax for a few years just to keep me going.  Should I move to temp specific waxes?  Any suggestions for tuning skis in a dorm room with a room mate?

Basically what I am looking for a a good training setup with, preferably, a 2 season lifespan. 

Any suggestions or advice?
Thanks

HI

Some shops have race programs, that help lower the cost of equpment. PIck what is right for you, on the hill. Foam injected boots are great, but save a lot of money, go non foam. Find a great bootfitter, picking the right boot is # 1. If the race program is not following USSA rules, then you could ski inline race skis (save a lot of money, most come with bindings). Check with ski companies for local race programs.

I have often heard that you often cannot purchase race skis once the season starts.  In all likelihood, my first day on the slopes will be in January.  Any truth in this?

I have used this bootfitter before and had good results (for a while).  He also does most of my home mountain's team's boots.  Overall, I have never heard anything bad about his service.  I just used the stock liners in my last boots and they worked well for about a season before I started noticing changes in fit.  Would something like a zipfit be a good compromise?  I dont know of any bootfitter within a few hour drive that sells them, would most know how to fit them if I purchased them and brought them in? 

I know that if I want to race competitively, I have to follow USSA rules.  As I said before, this year will likely just be a training season, but I also dont want to learn on something then have to switch to something radically different and be in for a shock. 

Where exactly in PA are you skiing/racing?

Yes, there are differences between boot brands. Head Raptors are a very good boot. The 130 sounds about right and I wouldn't be in a big hurry to soften it, even at your weight. The Nordica Doberman is a similar boot. Both (130's) are about 98mm wide in the forefoot. If you have "normal" feet (width and instep) it shouldn't be hard to fit you. Make sure you get shell fit. But, if you are working closely with the race team, this shouldn't be a problem, as the guys all know by now how important that is.

Regarding wax, if you are on a budget (who isn't in school?) just wax with a good hydrocarbon wax. Holmenkol BetaMix has a wide temp range and is highly regarded. You probably won't be able to find it local. www.artechski.com has good prices on it, though. But, Swix CH series or Toko S3 series will work, too. Temp ranges are a little more narrow on them, compared to the Holmenkol BetaMix. I'm most familiar with Toko, so you'll probably use the Yellow and Red the most. Not too much use for Blue in Pa. Seldom gets that cold. Oh, the Moly wax wouldn't hurt, if you can swing it. In Toko it can be used in place of the Red. Is a better choice on man made snow. You can PM me if you want details, including waxing charts for Toko.

Regarding skis, wouldn't buying used be better (cheaper)? Check with the various racing ski clubs in PA for some good used stuff right about now.

Good luck.

hi
Boot liner change with time foam, or not foam. Boots, and liners have a short life. Base on your weight, days of skiing, the life could be between 80 to 150 days. I know most people go longer than that.

Now is the time to buy race skis. Very few shops stock them, but there are a few, that do year round. The on hand stock in the US is getting smaller each year,, so hot skis go fast.

My foot is certainly not "normal" as I have a nice size bonion on my left foot.  Even my Diablo's had to be punched out to give it some space so I think that most (all) race boots will require a fair amount of work, at least on that side.  I have worked with this boot fitter before and he did a great job with it so I am confident that he can do it again. 

backroom, if I am understanding what you are saying, it looks like if I want to go with race skis, I will have to purchase now, obviously without demoing? 

I dont know, would used be a better option than Head ski at cost in terms of cost, longevity, and desired performance.  In the long run buying the new ski will probably be cheaper as I can probably get 2 seasons out of it, but I would also be comiting myself to a ski in a category of skis, neither of which I have ever used.  A used option would give me more options (not limited to Head, or struggling to find a deal), and would allow me to refine my selection after a single season, but would end up costing more long term.  Given the used market, any brand/models that suit the broadest ranges of preferences?  I have a bit of apprehension about purchasing used race skis?  Last year , while researching local options in the sport to see if it was something that I could financially do, I talked to a few kids on the team and asked about equipment and they said that they went through at least a pair of skis per season per event, sometimes 2 in SL.  If this is true then I would think it unwise to buy used race skis, especially if you do not know the owner.  Is there any merit to this? 

Thanks for the help

HI
There are many ski swaps this year, most starting in 2 weeks. There are good deals to be found. Check shops, and mt. web sites.
Most race skis get over tuned, and just get worked. But there are some good used skis out there. If ever any ?, then buy new.

Race ski in a race program cost between $550 to $700 with out binding FOR 09/10, better deals on 08/09 skis.

Race fitted boots take work. Sometimes it can take a few trips to get the right fit( maybe 5 or 8). I know skiers wearing boot 3 sizes smaller then, their shoe size. It just take time, and trust in a good boot fitter

We are a race shop in N.California and we currently carry 8 brands of race skis. The "race price" which we offer to anyone affiliated with a USSA sanctioned program is roughly similar between the brands. Some are a little more, some a little less, but there is no huge price advantage with any of them.

So....what you don't mention is what kind of racing you will be doing. At your age, I assume it is club racing at the low end or FIS racing at the high end and college in the middle (which could well be near the FIS level depending upon your division) If you are racing at the club level, you could possibly get by for a year with consumer level "race" skis. Above that level, a race stock ski will be required.

Ski Brands:

What brand of skis you pick is up to you. FWIW, we are the western race center for Head and are very high on the brand. However, at the race stock level, they are very aggressive skis and I'm not 100% sure that Head would be my first choice for you given your light weight and relative lack of experience. If that's what you want....go fer it but don't do it just for the deal. If you want something else, contact us.

Used skis:

Generally not a great idea. You might get lucky with a pair that has a lot of miles on them but it's a risk. It seems odd, but Race stock skis are not super durable. You can bend/break them fairly easily. If you get a used pair there may be some beater falls in it's prior life that have weakened the ski. Slalom skis are especially notorious for blowing up in the second year.

08/09 Skis:

This can be a good idea if you can find the right thing. We generally sell adult prior year skis for about $100 under race prce. We also usually have FIS model test skis that are generally '2010 models that have been tested at Mt Hood etc. These usually have a maximum of maybe 5-7 days total use and most are less than that.

Tuning:

0.5 x 3.0 is as aggressive as you need.

Foam boots:

Generally not very common even at the highest levels. In the last week/10 days, we have fitted boots for maybe 10 racers with ~~ 50 point (+ or -) FIS profiles (including one that won one or two Europa Cup races last year) None use foam liners. We also do a fair bit of work on one active USST "A" teamer and several others who are retired WC racers....none use foam. If you want foam....fine. But it is not necessary. The liners in the top race boots are all very good cork/oil flow liners although in some brands, they start with their really good liners in the 150 range. Don't worry about the bunion, that's a non issue for your fitter.

I hope this has helped you somewhat.

SJ

Buy used equipment off Ebay or swap lists. I very much disagree with the idea that you go through a pair of skis (or two) per year, for example I skied a LOT last year on my SL's (Volkl- probably 25 days of training and 15 races) and I am not replacing them this year. Besides, in your first year of racing, you will spend most of the time just learning what the proper line is, not necessarily aggressively flexing the ski. Note that USSA rules this year have not changed from last year or the year before so you can buy '07/'08 or '08/'09 gear without an issue (and to be honest they don't enforce it on the USCSA level much anyways.)

As for boots, I think you would be fine on the Technica Diablos (110 flex right?). You don't really weigh much so anything over a 130 flex would probably be overpowering. I am 6'1" and 180 and am very comfortable with the 130 flex Nordica Dobermanns.

I dont have any complaints with the flex of the Tecnicas, they were just fit with a more "advanced recreational" skier in mind so they have a little more room than I want in them.  Even when working with my instructor last year (took some private lessons), he pointed out that my boots may be too big, but since the season was already about half over and I planned on joining a race team once I got into college, I just experimented with some diy fillers to varying degrees of success.

I am more than willing to purchase older ski models.  Assuming they all cost about same, any brands/models I should look for, or for my circumstances, will I have the same chance of success with any?

Judging on what you've said so far, sounds like you'll be racing for PSU... I raced there for all 4 years of college, in fact most of my friends are former ski teamers.  Very fun group to get involved with.  So based on my experience, here's some advice:

Skis:  Don't even think racestock... the only people who should use racestock skis are people who can actually power them, and really on the PSU team that's maaaybe the top 1 or 2 guys.  Plus, we're talking 30 second courses... by the time you flex the ski, you'll be at the bottom.  Get something you can flex, the courses are typicaly turny since there's not a lot of vert to work with and ICY, so get something you can really power.  I didn't even technically have a SL ski when I was there, it was just a short-radius all mtn ski and it worked fine.  GS skis, I just used some off-the-rack race stick.  I easily got 2 seasons out of both pairs... and for reference, I raced on the A-team all 4 years, so they saw a lot of use... if people were going through 2 pairs a season then they were either over-tuning their skis or skiing through the parking lot.

Tuning and Wax:  Like I said, 30 second courses... technique will more important than wax will ever be.  The courses are so short and icy, you could use candlewax and not even notice the difference... but if you must... buy bulk blocks of yellow, pink, and purple, wax in some Yuengling, and you should be fine.  As for tuning in the dorms, don't bother... everyone just tunes in the hotel the night before the race... pick up some vises and you'll make new friends quick.

Boots:  Is Lee the bootfitter coming up?  If so, trust him... used to be the head coach.

Overall, just buy some used gear that you can ski (ebay and craigslist have an abundance of cheap race gear or high-end demos)... if you've only been skiing 7 years and never raced, you don't need top of the line race gear... some good high-performance all-mtn skis that you can flex would be just fine.  The team isn't super serious, even the a-teamers care more about having fun than what their times are, so just get gear that you can be confident on.

HI
If you are racing under USSA rules, then you need those skis. But if you are not racing under USSA, then you can use inline race skis. Next year USSA will be changing std. for skis. So check what ski you are buying.

To many people over use their files when tuning skis, taking the life out of a ski in one season, shaving off the side edges.

Flex of boot should match your skill level. It comes down only if you can flex it or not. More skill then your weight. I have friends that us 150 flex boots, and are your size, and a few girls using 120 flex boot. Flex is not the same from one brand to the next, or even models. Many racers get too stiff of a boot , then cut them to make them softer.

Find a good shop,and they will walk you thur new , use, race, inline, whatever it is their job.

I will be racing USSA, but they said they were not strict unless you actually do well (probably not me).  Do you know what they are changing the rules to?  It would be nice if the skis I purchase this year will work for next year when I will be attending more of the races. 

A PA locals secret weapon, Yuengling.  Although I don't know about waxing it into the skis.  My friend raced for PSU (see you at Blue Mountain sometime), and he talked about the Van they used to take to races with a keg in the back.  Have fun.

I think my Supershapes meet all of the USSA specifications.  Should I stick with them as an SL ski for the season?  They are 3 years old and probably have about 100-120 days of fairly hard skiing on them (1st year 3rd day crash ended that season) and have been through a few bad crashes (one gouge in the base went into the wood core), but otherwise they have been well maintained.  If I stick with that for SL and pick up an old GS ski (example: www.untracked.com/p1316c10b89-07_head_worldcup_igs_rd_vist_race_stock_skis.html www.untracked.com/p2113c10b43-08_atomic_race_stock_gs_12_fis_skis.html), would I be alright for this season? 

i have a rossi 183 GS cm & a nordica sl 155, both race stock, used but in racer shape, no bindings....will to seel uber cheap to support the cause & get them out of the house....

send me a PM!

I'm still not clear if you'll be racing USCSA college races, or not. Is that the goal? Does your college compete in the USCSA, in PA? And beyond that, do you hope to do some USSA racing, likely in that region? The reason that I ask is that it makes a difference in terms of what might work best. I know a fair amount about the USCSA, having friends skiing in it and others coaching teams. There is some very good racing at the top levels. There are some fully funded, very good teams. But the overall goal is participation and fun. While the races are USSA races, and you build a USSA point profile, there's not a lot of enforcement re: equipment compliance until you're at the top in one of the top conferences, or at Nationals.

If you'll be skiing in PA, and racing 30 second courses, what will work is a lot different than if you were racing top level USSA and entry FIS races elsewhere. You want to resist going macho on this, as it will not help your skiing. Even a USST skier would be faster on a different set-up than on their "normal" set-up for GS. A 193cm FIS radius ski won't work.

My recommendation:  Boots first. I would find the race boot, in a softer flex, that fits your boot best, and working with a boot guy who knows how to grind and fit a race boot, get fitted and dialed in. Depending on your feet it might take some tweaking. But it's important. Get the right flex going in. You can cut to soften, but it's not always ideal. You want to make sure that you're aligned the right way, etc. Your bunion is a non-issue. Spend the money, take the time and do it right.

SL skis. Dimensionally, your current skis might "fit", but a real SL ski will help you learn to ski a lot better SL. Without seeing you ski, and going "blind" on this, a really safe bet might be a men's {165cm} Volkl. I see a lot of very good smaller guys in the ski academy and NCAA world doing very well on them. Rossi is another, perhaps Fischer. You can find very good used Volkl's {and every other brand} if you know where to go. I'll be glad to give you some direction if you PM me.

GS skis. Do NOT go macho, and get into a FIS compliant men's GS ski in a longer length. It will do you no good on your 30 second courses, as it will be impossible to ski them properly. I would ask your teammates about this. The macho guys, who don't get it, may well think that a full on race stock GS is important. I would instead use the type of ski that most guys who just own the beer league world race on. These are guys who in some cases have skied on the USST, and are recent NCAA All-Americans. 15-25 point FIS skiers. They all use "cheater" GS skis, which have a very similar construction, but are shorter, and are designed for a much tighter turn shape {shorter radius}. They will work very well for you, IMO. Fisher makes a very good one. I know a lot of guys who ski it in a 180, some in a 175. I think that every company makes a cheater. That would be my recommendation. True, it isn't USSA "compliant". Find out how much that truly matters where you'll be racing.

My kids race in the NCAA, and have raced at the NorAM level. The ONLY time they have every had anybody even look at a ski was at US Nationals, when one of them was randomly tested for stackheight. I bet that people skiing in your league, and region are skiing on all sorts of set-ups. The sport needs more racers, and needs to encourage them participating. Forcing somebody to buy a set-up that fits the rules, but not the hill, the course set, etc. makes no sense. My $.02.

A cheater GS will also be a great freeskiing ski. You should get a lot of miles out of one.

That's my two cents. Do not sweat wax, at all. Simple Hydrocarbon from any company. Don't tune in your dorm room. Not smart to sleep with those fumes in your room. Particularly with all of the flu talk.

PM me, or post an email address where I can contact you if you want some sources for skis. Check this forum to start. There are some guys who sell a lot of very good skis at reasonable prices. I have a couple of other ideas, as well. Sierra Jim is also a very, very source.

Good luck. Have fun. It should be a heck of a lot of fun!

IRip is one of the guys that I'm referring to......well cared for, good skis.

If he is racing at Penn State or one of the other Allegheny conference teams, then it is USCSA.  Conference races for the Allegheny conference are not USSA races, only Nationals and sometimes Regionals are USSA sanctioned... you do not need to be eqiupment compliant unless it's regionals or nationals (which is just the A-team competing, B and C teams do not compete beyond conference level). 

Smoth, would definitely help if you clarify where you're racing.  Like Muleski said, if you're racing in PA, then do not get a racestock ski, it will only hurt your skiing.

That's good to know. Up here in New England, I think it's the McConnell conference that's loaded with funded varsity teams, and a lot of very, very good skiers. It's the conference that Colby Sawyer and Plymouth State ski in. All of their races are USSA races. The top teams, and the top skiers overall are skilled. Certainly all of them are on USSA compliant race skis.

Based on this info, Smoth, I'd be all over a 175cm cheater GS for your GS ski. If you were a big bigger, I'd say a 180. Good luck, and have fun with it.

Based on the recommendations I am looking for a racestock SL ski and a cheater GS.  Seems to be a good combination with PA skiing.   

I will be looking for a lower priced (slightly used, a few years old, great deal) 165cm SL ski.  If you had to give me the top 3 and bottom 3 which would they be? I just want a some direction.  I have been scouring various places online and calling a few ski shops and prices seem to be between $250-$600 for a pair of skis with bindings

I am a little more confused on the cheater GS market.  I am looking for something in the 175-180 range, 18m radius, but there are so many options and I am having more trouble finding used or older model skis.  Any source suggestions? 

Smoth, I do not think you are understanding what "race stock" skis are, all race skis are not "race stock".  Someone else maybe able to explain this better to you, but I will try my best.  "Race stock" essentially refers to a company's race room built skis, these aren't the off-the-shelf race skis that you'd buy from a retailer (and yes nowadays you can find race stock skis through some retailers who tend to carry high performance race gear, but it's not typical).  These are FIS regulation skis that are typically reserved for a companies elite racers (ie worldcup racers, NCAA college racers, top-ranked J1's, etc) as well as junior up and comers.  These skis have a larger turn radius and are stiffer than a standard consumer level race ski.  They aren't designed for recreational racing, they are designed for FIS level courses.  What others here are recommending for you is an off-the-shelf race ski (i.e. "cheater" race ski), not a "race stock" ski.  Non-racestock race skis will have a more manageable flex and turn radius for PA-style courses.

Make it even simpler. Race stock skis= >27 meter radius turns in a GS model. That's all that matters. Skied properly, they carve 27m turns....all day long. That's a FIS course set. You're not skiing FIS, or close to it. So you would be making things very difficult on yourself to use that type of ski. Stiffness ot length doesn't matter. Thing turn radius.

A "cheater" GS derives that nickname by have a smaller radius size than a FIS/USSA legal ski. It "cheats" the rule, by being designed for a tighter turning radius. Not as tight as a men's 165 SL, but much closer. Most companies make them. Could be called a recreational GS, a citizen's GS, etc. Any shop dealing in new or used race stuff will know exactly what they are.

You want a GS type ski, not a FIS compliant race stock GS ski, and one with a radius of less than 20 meters. Length 175-180, IMO.  These skis rule the beer league world. Very versatile.

That type of ski should help you make some big gains, and have some fun as well. You have mentioned this deal with Head. If whoever put the deal together at your school has a dialog with the rep involved {or shop involved}, see if the Head version of this type of ski is available, and at what price. If Head is only making their laminated FIS compliant GS skis available, they aren't really helping your team.

Sending you a PM.

I very much agree with what you've said.

OP, you never confirmed it was PSU, if so I have a couple friends who are alumni of the ski team that might be able to help you out.

Incidentally, I've raced a lot in PA and even on the best course there (Elk) they can't really set a FIS-compliant 27M radius GS. I've had much better results on my 21M skis and I'm sure the OP will find the same.

In the past 5 years, they have never checked equipment at mid-Atlantic regionals, which was also never sanctioned. If they did at least 30% or more of the field would be disqualified. On that note, two years ago they didn't bother to reset slalom either, but that's another story. Still, at the top, it's quite competitive and GS skis in in 183 and 185'ish lengths are quite common. Beyond that you see plenty of shorter race skis, cheater skis, all mountains, and even occasional twin tips.

Still, USCSA racing in the Allegheny conference means that beer drinking skills must be in order as well.

Tussey opened in november last year and just about always opens before winter break. So bring your stuff back when you return from thanksgiving break... 

Hey... sorry to bump old thread. Like the op I'll be racing Allegheny this year but I'm not on PSU team. This will be my 3rd year racing. 

Unfortunately I just bought a pair of Atomic Gs12 FIS 08/09.. they are 175cm with 23.5 radius. Should I return them and just get a pair of Cheater GS with ~17-21m radius? People here seem to be saying they're more suitable to these pennsylvania courses and I made a mistake getting FIS skis. I wasn't sure which ones to get, so I went with the FIS skis.. but I found this thread too late. 

I'm 5'10.5, 177 lbs and am pretty strong (300lb+ squat) so I dont think I'll have trouble skiing them. Not sure about my race technique however. I'm in the middle of the pack as far as that goes. Apparently these courses are much turnier than standard gs.

Last year I was skiing on an old pair of '03 GS9s in 171cm with a 16m (?) radius... I could definitely overpower them during races and they have little edge left. 

So, yay or nay on these gs12 skis? Any recommendations? I have a pair of atomic bindings thats why I went with Atomic skis again

From what you write you should be fine. Just keep them sharp and have a good time. A 175 cm will be not as stiff as a one 191 or such. Lay them over and keep your head up.

 Hmm. Just got the skis in the mail from ebay (Atomic Gs12 08/09). I believe they are the FIS version.. anyone want to confirm? On the bottom the dimensions are listed as:

Tip: 103 (it was listed as 99.5 on the website where i bought them? Haven't measured)
Mid: 67.5
Tail: 86.5
Length: 175cm
Radius: >= 23m

They have a silver and black plate. 

I still don't know whether to return them or not. Will I really be better off skiing a smaller radius gs ski on these allegheny courses? Probably will go with the gs12 pb if I do.. will this be a much better choice for me or should I look into a different ski? 

They're fine, just go ski 'em.  Being a 23 m radius and 5 inches longer than what you skied on last year, they'll be a big step up and in the right direction...I don't think a PB is going to buy you anything...