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Nick Hill attacks each turn

#1
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 As I've been working on my new dvd and website, I've been looking for great examples of one of the diamond principles that I call Will.  The fundamental principle of Will is the intention to MOVE, to attack.

I thought these shots of Hilly really show that.  Taking all your "stuff" into each turn, confidently, and fearlessly, seem to be such a powerful piece of great skiing.


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#2
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 Here's a photomontage of the same guy. (photo credits:  Cesar Piotto)
866f1706_Hilly.jpg


Thoughts? Comments?
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#3
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I don't really see an "attack." He is a good skier that is simply skiing with his weight forward where is should be.  I guess he is attacking the hill compared to the majority of skiers.  Sometimes you see people with an exaggerated arm swing or pole plant that looks aggressive, but is actually just unnecessary movement.  Hilly looks very smooth, balanced and relaxed (considering how fast he is going), and more or less just "standing" on his turning ski. I like the way he does not use any more effort or motion than necessary and lets his weight and the ski do all the work, carving with the entire ski. Constant solid contact equaling constant control.

IMO he skis like a pro patrolman.  I get the impression that he could unexpectedly launch a 10 foot cliff and it would be no problem, because he is always balanced.
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#4
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Has an inside hand/arm issue,frame1&7. But a good skier none the less.
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#5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

I don't really see an "attack." He is a good skier that is simply skiing with his weight forward where is should be.  Are you sure?


  Hilly looks very smooth, balanced and relaxed (considering how fast he is going), True.

and more or less just "standing" on his turning ski. "Just"standing?  Look again.

I like the way he does not use any more effort or motion than necessary and lets his weight and the ski do all the work, carving with the entire ski. Constant solid contact equaling constant control.  True.

I get the impression that he could unexpectedly launch a 10 foot cliff and it would be no problem, because he is always balanced. Agree


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#6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Has an inside hand/arm issue,frame1&7. But a good skier none the less.

What is the issue?
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#7
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I like it, thanks for sharing.  It would be even better if those turns were being made in some clearly nasty, gnarly conditons.  Isn't "Will" about "making the snow your bitch?" 
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#8
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Great clip.  It is as if he is taking a very controlled bite out of the mountain with each turn. 

It looks like attack mode to me.

"Politics is the 2nd oldest profession in the world and it bares a close resemblance to the 1st."     Will Rogers

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#9
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Not a style of skiing I would choose to emulate.
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#10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Has an inside hand/arm issue,frame1&7. But a good skier none the less.

His hand might be down, but he still has a strong inside half.
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#11
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Skidude72: "and more or less just "standing" on his turning ski. "Just"standing?  Look again."


That is more my mindset that what he is acutally doing.  What I was eluding to is the fact that he is not using his leg muscles any more than he has to.  His body weight plus momentum is bending the ski almost perfectly, without the need for any readjustment between turns, which reinforces my impression that he is not attacking.  Very quite upper body, and very centered on the skis.  The weight tranfser is very smooth, as if he is walking in slow motion.  In my mind, in the simplest sense he is just standing on one ski and then other, but obviously there is a lot more going on than that.

I am not an instructor and tend to simplify what is happening.  When I am skiing well I feel like I am walking down the hill, and the faster you go the slow the walking motion becomes.  IMO if people would focus on  "standing" on one ski and then the other it makes for a more natural movement.  Commitment to the ski can be natural and does not have to involve aggression or an "attack" mindset.  I would guess that when Hilly was making those turns his mind and body were fairly relaxed.  That's the thing about skiing, the more correctly you carve a turn, the less effort it takes.  All the effort is really aimed as simply staying standing in the middle of the turning ski.  In my mind you only need agression to recover from a badly executed turn, although I'm sure the mindset of skiers on any given run varies greatly.
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#12
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Yes, he looks to be a strong, get after it  skier, Weems. 

The thing that jumps out at me in his transitions is a pivot entry, powered by rotation.  Also see a strong fore move into the top of the turn, and an aggressive dive into a high edge engagement post pivot.  The pivot and high edge allows the him to use that somewhat inclinated postion without getting into much lateral balance trouble. 

His movement across the skis is a gentle cross over.  With a stronger retraction, and more anticipation, he could achieve the same pivot entry minus the rotation and cross over.  That old inside leg extension before edge angle neutral he's using is not really necessary when a pivot entry is being used.  Cross under will get the job done just fine.  

But then, this thread is more about attitude than mechanics, isn't it.  Sorry, just can't help myself.     

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#13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Yes, he looks to be a strong, get after it  skier, Weems. 

The thing that jumps out at me in his transitions is a pivot entry, powered by rotation.  Also see a strong fore move into the top of the turn, and an aggressive dive into a high edge engagement post pivot.  The pivot and high edge allows the him to use that somewhat inclinated postion without getting into much lateral balance trouble. 

His movement across the skis is a gentle cross over.  With a stronger retraction, and more anticipation, he could achieve the same pivot entry minus the rotation and cross over.  That old inside leg extension before edge angle neutral he's using is not really necessary when a pivot entry is being used.  Cross under will get the job done just fine.  

But then, this thread is more about attitude than mechanics, isn't it.  Sorry, just can't help myself.     


I totally agree Rick.  I noticed the same thing when i first watched the video... great skiing, but to make it better this guy needs to flex/extend alot more.  The end result would be even more performance then what he has now.
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#14
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Fun, fast & yes aggressive skiing.  He moves it down the hill smoothly & deliberately,  I sometimes refer to this as relaxed tension.  He seems to redirect a lot of the turn at the top & then rides it out till transition, where he flexes nicely to regulate the building pressure & stay in balance.  I see it a bit like mudfoot describes, but without the forward part.  That snow looks awfully soft & it would be easy to over pressure the tips at that speed & get bogged or out of balance.  On firmer snow I think we would see bigger, better angles & a more symmetrical shape to his turns.  I WOULD like to see him have a more continual/deeper flex & extend throughout the turn.  He does a great job of balancing a nice glisse through the turns.
JF

"Apparently, a person who dives headfirst down an icy cliff wearing a spandex jumpsuit is supposed to celebrate with a nice glass of tea."

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#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
 Isn't "Will" about "making the snow your bitch?" 

^Like this^

"Apparently, a person who dives headfirst down an icy cliff wearing a spandex jumpsuit is supposed to celebrate with a nice glass of tea."

David Fehrety on Bode Millers 60 minutes interview

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#16
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He may not be "attacking", but at least he's not holding back. 

As far as "style to emulate", hand issures, pivot entries, etc., you guys are off-topic.  Weems is talking about "Will" not technique. 

I think "attacking" the hill is fun, but not 100% of the time, the edge wears off if it's turned on 100% of the time.  Sometimes it's good to just let the skis run and enjoy it; sometimes it's good to force more out of 'em.  Holding back, however, blocks things up.
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#17
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Weems,
Nick is certainly moving into the new turn. And his line seems to match his turn type quite well. If I could ask a question it would be about intent. It looks like he is moving into the new turn but not in an overly aggressive way that would disturb the how the ski is working. So as far as polarity between staying put (timid and defensive) and charging into the new turn (aggressive and offensive) he seems to be striking a balance somewhere in between those two extremes. I see that as matching the DIRT of his movements to the terrain and snow, which he is doing quite well. 
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#18
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A couple of items while I'm on the run this morning.

Hilly is a crud master.  He loves it more than anything and I have a sense of him, in his mind, always skiing crud.  And yes, he could launch big on a moment's notice.

As far as emulation is concerned....I would sell my firstborn to be able to ski like this.

As for attack....it's just the idea of nothing being held back in the transition.  You all have touched on this a bit--both form the point of view of him looking very quiet, and from the point of view of him being in motion.

Rick, I'm fascinated by your pivoting/rotation analysis.  Could you elaborate?  I don't see that as well.  (And I don't mind changing the subject from the idea of Will.  That's one of the beauties of the model.)

As to extension/flexion....this seems a young person's crud style.  I've seen this in Davenport as well.  I tend to flex/extend more with the pelvis. Hilly fully extends his outside leg into the angle, but does not unflex his hips much as he pushes forward.  Here's an old guy in the bumps who projects the pelvis forward more.  Of course, the circumstances and fitness levels are very different from Hilly's ride.

 


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#19
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^Yup, 2 different forms of expression!  I like them both, but I relate to the old geezer a little more .

Thanks,
JF

"Apparently, a person who dives headfirst down an icy cliff wearing a spandex jumpsuit is supposed to celebrate with a nice glass of tea."

David Fehrety on Bode Millers 60 minutes interview

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#20
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Those turns of you Weems were not some of your better bump turns as we both know, but they do offer a good contrast in the movements into the turn, or lack there of, contrasting with Will's. 

I agree with much of what rick and skidude have said.  While Will's footage is good, I think you can find a better example of what you are looking for as content for your new DVD.  Just my thought.   Maybe if you had footage of Will in some crud it would jump out better?


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#21
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 Interesting, Bud. I think in a DVD you can do a lot with stuff like that in order to show the subtleties.  We'll add the graphics and see how it looks.

That run in the bumps was designed to show exaggerated extension in deep holes, making round turns.  

Thanks for you comments, Bud.
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#22
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Now, back to my original thought:  

We sometimes get quite wrapped up in technical movement analysis.  Although Hilly's technique is "arguable" it is not exactly the point for me.  (On that last issue, I would argue that it is terrific.  I've seen him do that exactly the same way down amazingly steep, cruddy, and bumpy terrain.  He seems to have found a movement and pattern that really is versatile, efficient, and effective.  His training is both Australian and Austrian, and I've not got a lot of argument against their solutions.)

But what grabs me here is what I really want to encourage for all skiers--the idea of everything moving toward the new turn.  There is often an artificial break between the end of one turn and the initiation of the next.  We even used to describe it that way in exam movement analysis.  For me, the magic is to make that break more seamless.  A whole world shifts during the edge change, and to pause there is really a bad idea if skiing is going to be great.  

For me, the overall impression of Hilly here immediately relates to phrases from Bob Barnes's thinking:  Offensive skiing.  GO skiing. (In my model this is Will in service to Purpose)

If I get students (and myself) to "see" and "feel" this sense of "taking it down the hill" through the one arc and directly into the next, then all the great technique they have will work.  If they don't get this, then all the great technique in the world won't do a damn thing.

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#23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post

Now, back to my original thought:  

But what grabs me here is what I really want to encourage for all skiers--the idea of everything moving toward the new turn.  There is often an artificial break between the end of one turn and the initiation of the next.  We even used to describe it that way in exam movement analysis.  For me, the magic is to make that break more seamless.  A whole world shifts during the edge change, and to pause there is really a bad idea if skiing is going to be great.  

If I get students (and myself) to "see" and "feel" this sense of "taking it down the hill" through the one arc and directly into the next, then all the great technique they have will work.  If they don't get this, then all the great technique in the world won't do a damn thing.

 


Sounds like walking to me.  When do you finish one step and start the next?  You don't, it's a continuous and seamless always moving towards the next step. Anyway, that's the image that has worked for me.  You are always on the way to the other ski, so there is no defined start and finish to a turn, which I guess means there really is no turn, unless you stop the motion.

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#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post

Now, back to my original thought:  

But what grabs me here is what I really want to encourage for all skiers--the idea of everything moving toward the new turn.  There is often an artificial break between the end of one turn and the initiation of the next.  We even used to describe it that way in exam movement analysis.  For me, the magic is to make that break more seamless.  A whole world shifts during the edge change, and to pause there is really a bad idea if skiing is going to be great.  


 

I totally agree that skiing should be seamless and flowing with no real start or end....but in my view, be careful with the "pausing" is bad, or the move the whole body into the new turn idea.  Fluidity is not synomus with these ideas.

Fluidity comes from allowing the skis to flow uninterupted from one turn to the next.  What allows this to happen is a myriad of things.  The dont pause idea or move the whole body concept wont work for people who rush the top of the turn, or those who have banking issues...for example.

A better approach I found to work this idea is simply shift our mental focus.

What I mean by that is, in skiing we typically view and think about skiing as series of linked turns.  A turn being defined from transition to the next transition, or a "C" shape.  This mental focus is the cause of alot of the lack of fluidy that we see.

To fix this we changed the way we viewed turns.  Instead we started talking, thinking and analysing turns as being from fall line to fall line.  Hence a single turn had a (think of an upside down one of these) "~" (sorry it is closet thing on my keyboard!) .  But hopefully you get the idea...hence with this mental focus the transition is the not the start or end...it is actually the middle of the turn. 

Moving this from symantics to somthing that actually works takes time, but often just presenting this concept to students and newer instructors will go along way to helping them "get it".  Also I dare say...this concept will be techncially correct advice for everybody, in all situations...where as the move down the hill and dont pause ideas have lots of areas where they may send the wrong message.
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#25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


What I mean by that is, in skiing we typically view and think about skiing as series of linked turns.  A turn being defined from transition to the next transition, or a "C" shape.  This mental focus is the cause of alot of the lack of fluidy that we see.

I've had that focus too. I think it's good because instead of thinking of the transition as the beginning or end of turn, it goes right in the middle of the turn, and IMHO the transition pretty much is the turn.
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#26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weems View Post
Here's an old guy in the bumps who projects the pelvis forward more.  Of course, the circumstances and fitness levels are very different from Hilly's ride.
Clearly, the difference here is primarily the fact that the friction within the knee joint of the two sides of this skiers body are different. One knee, in fact, seems much younger than the other. That must be it. 

That said (and all joking aside), it seems to me that there is a bit of a pause in Hilly's movements in the middle of the turn. It may just be my lack of practice in such analysis, but in the belly of the turn there seems to be a pause that does not exist (as you note) in the transition. Any thoughts on that?

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#27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post


That said (and all joking aside), it seems to me that there is a bit of a pause in Hilly's movements in the middle of the turn. It may just be my lack of practice in such analysis, but in the belly of the turn there seems to be a pause that does not exist (as you note) in the transition. Any thoughts on that?
Your bang on with that...commented above in 12 and 13....

I will add thou, this is one of the few times I'll agree on the intent idea.  Sure he could move more...he barley flexes/extends at all now...so there is lots to go...but it is also possible for that pitch, he was skiing at the exact turn radius and desired speed he wanted, thus he didnt need more movement....

Often we see skiers who dont do xyz simply becuase they cant.  They then mask this with "intent"..ie: "I meant to ski that way"...in 98% of cases this is bull......but with this guy, he is obviously pretty good, and hence if he said that was his intent, I would beleive him, there is nothing wrong with that skiing.  Could he tighten those turns up in a race course?  I am sure he could. and I am sure you would see alot more flexion/extension in that application.

Just like these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTboYL8CjaU&feature=related
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#28
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It's really funny how so many people see so many different things in one clip of skiing. Critique really comes from the essence of "it's in the eye of the beholder'. One could look at a picture fifteen times and somehow see fourteen different perspectives. Then when several enter the veiwing, different mindsets and ways of thinking will give a different perspective every time.

I see a decent skier having fun on a hard fast slope not really intending to be analized by anyone or caring about anything but the energy and thrill of fast skiing and getting to the bottom  on a bluebird day. Is he attacking? I think so. And it is about attitude and approach more than technique.

While many of you are probably right about his skiing, weems is right about the attack and vigor and it's a good example of how to approach skiing. JMHO

There is no Darkside of the moon. It's all dark

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#29
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 Lars, you really have my point here.  And I might use this clip to illustrate several ideas.  This to me is one of the problems with classic movement analysis.  It is so laser focused on technique, that it quite often misses the "forest", or various clumps and configurations of trees.  Are there mistakes?  Sure.  Are there mistakes in my skiing in the bump run above?  Sure.  All of them are part of skiing and all of them can be used to help understand and grow my own skiing.



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#30
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 Mudfoot, I agree this is very much like walking in its seamlessness.

Skidude72  and Epic are correct, in my view.  It is usually better to look at a turn from middle to middle, or fall line to fall line in order to avoid the transitional pause that indicates, "I'm finished with this turn, now I'll ski across the hill to find a new place to start a new turn."  This traverse to traverse approach is one of the big problems of ski teaching.  Since the main motivation of students is to slow down, stop, and feel safe, we get sucked into stopping the motion in a completed turn.  What they learn about that this first day is very hard to change.  I really believe that one of the big differences between an intermediate and an expert skier is this mental configuration about transitions.  It is a semantical difference that has enormous real life result.

Having said that, I think that staying in motion into the next turn is not the same as rushing the turn or banking.  Those are different issues, that I would treat differently.  "Move, but don't hurry." for example.

ssh's point is an interesting one--especially since he witnessed the penultimate trashing of my knee before I got a new one!  Hilly's more visible movement in the transition, or the edge change, is powerful and directed enough so that he is really well aligned for the middle of the turn.  This, by the way, is one of the strong points of his skiing in my view.  When you do that well, you really can "work" the ski in the middle of the turn without appearing to do much work.  It is clear to me that there is plenty of resilient tension in the legs to maintain what he wishes to maintain in terms of pressure, edge, and twist to carry himself across the hill.  Many skiers, in a radius like this, DO go dead in the middle.  This is the classic park and ride turn you describe, Steve.  I don't think Hilly does that.  I think he "drives" the turn throughout.  But, yes, he's quieter towards the middle, because he can be.

Another way of looking at this I learned from my friend, aikido master, Tom Crum.  He says, "Move like the river.  Be still like the mountain."  He explains that the mountain stillness is not rigid.  It's a dynamic, living stillness full of power and potential.  Some of my best skiing will occur when I carry this idea with me.  It helps me bypass technical thought and just ski.  I certainly see this aspect in Hilly, and in many other skiers whom I admire.

Thanks for your thoughts, guys.


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