Level 3, Tentative. Movement Analysis

Here is another student from last year.  Great lady, improved heaps and very willing to learn.  Again, just want you all to fix your eye to the video and give me your opinion.

Cheers.

-nerd

www.vimeo.com/6372192

I'd say the obvious first thing to work on is her stance. She's pretty far in the back seat, particularly at turn completion. On top f that, she doesn't have and upper/lower separation. I would say if you can try to utilize some drills that will get her downhill hip to move into the new turn, that will help a lot with both of those problems.

The fore/aft balance is a problem, but so is the lateral ski to ski balance and lack of upper/lower body separation.  She also needs to have much more outside ski dominance - she leans uphill onto the uphill ski.....  Where to begin? It's not possible to do anything right without balance.  So that is it.
 

Balancing is about moving.  She is very static, so get her moving is the first order of the day.

I'd first make sure that she has much more movement in the vertical plane with flexion and extension drills.  The fore/aft balance must correct itself when the flexion/extension drills are done right -- it's a side effect, but one that you can point out when she does it right.
You may even want to do this in a wedge since she turns with a LOT of unneeded rotation.

After that, I'd lose the poles, and do a drill like putting both hands on the knee of the outside ski to cement the notion of outside ski dominance. 
 

Finally, do things like reverse airplanes -- inside arm high (angulation), as opposed to outside arm.

Eventually, we'd get to the idea of rolling the inside ski to change edges, but to be successful, we need to build a a stable/dominant outside/stance ski.


 

 

+1

Without movement of the joints -- hips, knees, ankles -- none of the other stuff is going to work properly.

Getting all the joints involved will establish good fore/aft balance, then you can get to basic lateral balance (weight on downhill ski), and then you can work on the other mechanics of good skiing.

She's forcing the turns with the big whole body rotary move, not that she has many options when skiing so far aft. I wonder if you could share with us if her tenativeness is fear induced? Defensive movements like this often happen as a function of steepness. Beyond that I see the same stance and balance issues as everyone else.
What would I suggest as an exercise? More step turns and figure eights on very flat terrain to identify her movement bias' and default joint usage. If no big joint usage problems appear and she gets more comfortable moving with the skis(balancing on a moving platform), those step turns will evolve into a thousand step progression. From there it's just a matter of adding steepness in small increments so she still does offensive movements. So IMO even though the greater range of motion is certainly needed it may not happen until she adopts a more offensive mindset.

 I'd give her a task that is simple, but impossible to do without being in balance. Perhaps start with sidestepping up the hill. Then have her sidestep up the hill while traversing. Then move to garlands. She'll have to be in balance to do the sidesteps, and they will help her to learn how to use matching edges of her skis, big toe and little toe. Garlands will be good for her because if she can learn to release the old outside ski, she will be able to make the skis turn her without throwing her whole body into it.

Yup, fear was a factor.  This was in Teewinot Gully (best next step at Jackson), which we did after 2 days of Teewinot Flats working with fore/aft and lateral balance.  It was only when I took her here did I then see the whole body rotary move and what a problem that was for her.  I'll post some of that video later.

No doubt a lot going on with this lady, but I like the ideas so far.  Keep em coming!

-nerd

It looks like visibility may not have been that good either (or does the camera just make it l look that way).

JASP and Epic, 

Right on.  I like the idea of thousand steps on almost flat terrain.  That will force her to balance over the skis and also move in the the right directions.  You can introduce the drill as stepping out of the turn only, and as she gets it, start the stepping from the fall line through the finish.  Add stepping earlier in the turn until she is stepping into the turn.  Once she gets it there, take the same progression to easy novice terrain.  Once she gets it there, change the task so she is going at will between sliding (turning) and stepping at any part of the turn.  Have her take the same movements into her skiing.

It sounds like she has been over faced with terrain at some point.  Keep her on easy terrain for quite a while.  I always say, easy terrain, more difficult tasks before hard terrain and easy tasks.

RW

Thousand steps is beyond this student at this point.  Remember, the 1000 steps is primarily a lateral movement drill. She's got far more basic movements to learn ( vertical & fore/aft ) before the 1000 steps.  It's too advanced.

I agree with that. In part because she is "tentative" and 1000 steps is fast even on nearly flat ground. I think she would have a very difficult time with letting herself do it the "right way" and if it;s not done right, don't do it at all.

Instead of thousand steps try thousand shuffles or whatever you want to call it.  It must be done on basically flat terrain.  Instead of having her step into the new turn have her shuffle her feet foreword and backward through the turns.  At first she'll probably want to shuffle them quickly back and forth.  Force her to slow this down and really concentrate on feeling the way it affects her balance.  If she is too tentative to even do this, you can have her do it in a straight run or traverse in an area where she feels comfortable and can control her speed.

Wow! What's up with the strong rebukes from E and Epic? Especially the part about thousand steps being only a lateral (ski to ski) drill and an advanced skiing drill. With all due respect guys you're way off base here.

• Try a thousand step turn levered too far back and all you get is a diverging star step turn. Try it levered too far forward and all you get is a converging star step turn. The body moving from step to step requires a fairly centered stance just like when we walk. Not to mention the shuffles that are part of a thousand step progression having a very strong fore / aft component. I dare you to shuffle your skis back and forth (front to back) without changing your fore / aft stance. How absurd!
• Cubby holing it as only a lateral balance drill ignores my first point as well as the strong rotary component used to pivot the ski while it is in the air (before placing back on the snow). The simple fact is all three skill are involved in this exercise and suggesting otherwise ignores the bio-mechanics of the movements. Again totally absurd thinking.
• The direct to parallel method starts with figure eights which are the low end version of the thousand step turn. In this incarnation absolutely no speed whatsoever is involved. The only locomotion (speed) involved is from the steps themself. This is why I strongly disagree with the idea that it is too advanced for her and that too much speed is involved in this maneuver.

I don't usually flame out guys but in this case your opinions are so far out there that I cannot believe they are coming from you. 
Edited by justanotherskipro - 9/2/09 at 5:27pm

 My two cents..... keep her where she can be offensive instead of  defensive, and work with her  on a simultaneous "steer and extend" movement off the new turning ski.  So when she is ready to begin a  turn to the  left, get her to simultaneously extend off the uphill (right foot) perpendicular to the slope and twist the foot toward the fall line rather than the shoulders.  This is easily demonstrated by using your hand and  arm to  simulate the foot and leg movements.  This exercise creates  1) lower leg steering 2) a movement into the turn and 3) an early weight transfer!  What else  could a girl want?

Was that strong rebuke? I didn't think so. I think that thousand steps is good for this person for all the reasons you said. I also think it might not be ideal for the reason that I said. You do tend to go fast doing this drill. We all look at this from the lens of our own experience. I don't know what JH's teaching areas look like. I do feel like where I teach, that drill might be a little much for that student at that time. If she reacted by trying to slow down (her Vs turning into As as she enters the fallline) I'd consider the drill to be a failure. I can picture a super-wide open area with almost no pitch where that would be a very good drill for this student.

I use more direct to parallel than most of our staff and the flat terrain doesn't have to be more than twenty feet square to get the figure eights going. Scooter figure eights and two ski figure eights work very well that early since I am tapping into their walking skills as a bridge to sliding across the snow anyway. So while I agree with the idea that this is so terrain sensitive, it doesn't take a big area to make it work. Just be careful moving too quickly to steeper terrain because all you get are unguided missiles looking for a place to land. If you can't find a small flat area, it might make sense to go to a wedge progression but the downside of that is braking movements are hard to avoid on that steeper terrain.
Snowmass starts their never evers on the mall and on concrete. As they move to the beginner corral the swale of the beginner area keeps them from going downhill. So good grooming and terrain is custom designed for all of their new clients. Not exactly something a lot of other ski areas do but should. Which reminds me of my new home over at Keystone. I had one family that I started on the walkway just outside our ski school desk   The three year old was a bit loud at first as he wanted mom to carry him but after awhile the whole family was giggling and quite comfortable sliding and scootering. We eventually moved over to the magic carpet (slightly steeper) and everyone was linking turns within a half hour of going there. Too bad maintenance came by that night and shoveled off the snow because I had my own personal never ever corral that day.
An article we posted in our locker room labeled all of this "Flat work" and their conclusion was that spending more time (two hours verses a half hour or so) doing flat-work produced much quicker advancement once you leave the flats. I'm sorry I don't remember the author but it was in the PSIA magazine last year. I think...
In any case I am glad to hear that I read more into your post than you meant. Peace brother... 

We tend to follow a very straight progression, vertical, fore and aft, and then lateral.  1000 steps is introduced when we're working on lateral movement.  She's a statue, with very little vertical movement, so why would I teach thousand steps?

Look again at the skier in the video. There's miles to go before we do 1000 steps.

E, There's miles to go before you teach her 1000 steps. Although the progression you suggested isn't how I would teach her because it relies so much on static stances and contrived positions. So while promoting movement and dynamic balance seems to be the common goal we share, we obviously would take completely different routes to get there. Rather than argue the virtues of either opinion, let's agree to disagree and move on...
IMO the video shows an over terrained skier doing some survival skiing. Something confirmed by SkiNerd. The first tenative run down a new and steeper trail often creates a little fear and reluctance in our students. They respond by only using maneuvers they trust and know they can accomplish. So how do we get them more comfortable in the face of the new challenges? There simply isn't one activity since we're talking about individuals and it entirely depends on their mental state. A timid skier will need a lot of encouragement and TLC, while an agressive skier will want us to get out of the way and let them attack and conquer that slope. Somewhere in between these two examples are the rest of the skiers we teach. I use some route defining "follow me" acivities and continue to use a good demo of what we've been working on to show it's effectiveness in that situation. I also avoid taking them to a run with one consistent pitch top to bottom. Rolling terrain gives us the opportunity to introduce and explore steeper terrain in short sections and the sight of flatter terrain is very comforting for the more timid in the group.

Sorry, the "we" referred to my teaching organization, not you and me.  While some in the CSIA may choose to do 1000 steps at this point, that is not usual.

I don't see what is "contrived" about drills that provide strong internal and external feedback. 1000 steps is no less contrived than these drills.

Chillax folks. We can have different opinions. This place would not be any fun if we didn't.

Big E asks why do 1000 steps? My assessment of this thread is that there is general agreement that "stepping" type drills would force a resolution of fore/aft issues (even though they can also be used to develop lateral movements). There are lots of variations to do this and a lot of success is going to vary based on trail pitch/width, snow conditions and the student's mental state. Sometime you want to be gentle and down shift the intensity of the exercises and some pros like to sometimes push the intensity to "stretch" the student or make a point (e.g. if it is hard to do, then that is why you need to work on it and when it becomes easy to do you will be ready for the next step after that). Those are judgement calls and (aside from safety concerns) you can't second guess them until after they're tried and have results to evaluate. There are many different routes that can be taken that will all end up with similar results. Although I'd prefer Epic's drill line, I also believe that Jackson has the terrain and the snow conditions for this skier to do the 1000 steps drill and successfully develop improved fore/aft balance and stance and improved use of knee and ankle movements.

I've had a lot of success over terraining students, then returning to easier terrain. There are two basic goals here: operning up the student to the option of becoming more offensive on easier terrain and sensitizing the student to more difficult terrain. Sometimes all you have to do to improve performance is take a second run. Sometimes the over terrain highlights the areas the area that really need work when those areas are hidden on easier terrain. There are a lot of different factors in play. I realize that willingness to overterrain varies greatly by instructor and have learned to respect other pros and managements opinions both when they are more aggressive and less aggressive than my own.

Big E's progression comment has me intrigued for two reasons. I've always strived to have no vertical movement above the waist. What kind of vertical movement are you trying to develop in your progression? Also, PSIA has been trying to move away from strict progressions. Is the progression thing specific to your school or to CSIA? Is it beginner specific or do you also go through vertical->fore/aft->lateral at other lesson levels? I agree 100% that progressions are very helpful for newer instructors to be sucessful. But in my experience, being able to deviate from progressions opens up the possibility for accelerated development of some students.

I'm trying my best to upload another video of this lady doing the "Inside Ski Stomp Drill" but Vimeo is telling me there is a "problem."  Hopefully it will come through eventually.





-nerd

 Your video works now. I think she needs to go visit Skiing-at-Jackson (that's the bootfitter guy, right?).

therusty,

My question was entirely rhetorical.

As to the kind of vertical movement, it's simply an extension and flexion of all joints -- ankles, knees and hips.  This is the first step to replace fearfully bracing against the hill with confidently moving above the skis.  The progression I've outlined is beginner/novice specific, but even at advanced levels, we'll do some hopping through the turn (a vertical movement) to get the sense of balance going at the start of a session.
 

While it is true that "thousand steps" done properly will show the desired result, she also be forced into skiing with better balance if she was to ski an SL course properly.  It's obvious that the SL course is way above her head, but I insist so is the 1000 steps.

What do you think the odds are of having her do 1000 steps right, when there is currently no movement in the ankles/knees and hips and her balance point stays between her feet at all times?  For me to believe that she could do a decent job at the 1000 steps, she'd need to show much more movement and much more shifting of her balance point than we are currently seeing. 

That's all I am saying. 

Anyway, I've not seen the "boot stomp drill" video yet.

skinerd,

can you explain what your thinking was to choose the boot stomp drill?

My thinking was to get her shaping a consistent round turn to help her speed control.  Sometimes she would spend a little too much time in the fall line, lose turn shape and revert to upper body rotation to finish the turn.  We also did the "double pole drag" to help the same idea. 

-nerd

Fore and aft balance remains a big problem here.  The external cue of the ski lifting at the tip first shows her balance point is on or behind her heels.

She is now even more rigid.  Given that lifting the inside ski has resulted in even LESS overall movement, I rest my case regarding the usefulness of the 1000 steps.  She's obviously not close to ready to do 1000 steps.  IMO, I don't think she is ready to do this one either. 

 

The issue remains that balance requires movement.  Her response to the instruction of lifting the ski is to become completely rigid, except for the moving leg.  Telling her "Your doing great!" here is a disservice.  She's as stiff as a board. While I admire her effort, I cannot tell her that this drill was a success.
 

So, again, I come back to the tired old notion that movement is a requirement to maintain balance.  Consequently, I'd work on drills with which she can be successful.  These are the most basic vertical movement drills.  As we used to say ski as "Tall as a house and small as a mouse."  Full extension, arms straight overhead, and then crouched as low as you can go without riding the tails of the skis. 

 

Really anything you can think of will work eg. touch "Head& shoulders, hips, knees,toes" Then back up again, from toes to knees to hips to shoulders to head" as you go through the turn, making sure that you put the fully flexed and extended positions at the right places in the turn.

 

Then do hopping exercises, focusing on making sure that the ski comes up either flat or tail first.....

At this point, you should have her moving really well, and she should be able to have some fore and aft control of her balance point.

Getting this far would be a MAJOR success story and she'd see rather large improvements in skiing.  She walk away knowing that balancing requires movements that she is capable of making.

Thanks. That's what I expected. I'd just never heard it put that way. I concur.

This is one beauty of the 1000 steps exercise. Because almost everyone already knows how to step without skis, asking students to step with skis on can (emphasis on can) automatically cause desired changes in stance and movements to occur. It does not happen for everyone and many struggle at first. But enough students improve quickly with practice that many pros will choose to use this drill and be successful with it. Even when students suck doing this drill, it often makes an immediate and noticeable improvement in fore/aft balance. Another beauty of 1000 steps is variety of options/progressions pros can use to create the optimum tradeoff between difficulty and doability to optimize the student's rate of improvement.

 

I say that the odds of her doing 1000 steps "good enough" are 100%. The "stomp drill" in the second video is close enough to 1000 steps and the improvement in balance and stance from the beginning to the end of the clip is readily noticeable (freeze at 59 seconds and look at the stance, then compare the hand movements at that point to the first clip and the beginning of the second). She may suck doing this drill but she is already off of her heels and standing against the outside ski more.

 

The next good thing about 1000 steps is that the basic error in this drill is easily fixable. Most students can easily be taught the difference between stepping the ski with the tail lifted more than the tip versus vice versa. If this student was given that as the focus in the next run, the groundwork for a breakthrough lesson would be complete.


 

 Hmmm?  if she is not comfortable or confident enough to do "boot stomps" or thousand steps, do you think she will be successful with hopping?....

Perhaps pedaling? (weight shifts without lifting ski off the snow) may work well for her?

What are all of your thoughts on my idea of creating simultaneous "steering and extension" movements?

In general I prefer to see ski driven change of direction vs foot steering driven change of direction. I'd rather have the extension movement drive inside edge change vs allow steering movements. A "skate into the next turn" drill would be a good next step drill for this skier that I think accomplishes what you are suggesting here. But my 2 cents is that the skier need to keep improving balance beyond the second clip before doing this.