Speed Control- Especially in Crud

#1

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7/9/09 at 11:27am

JGTski
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First post here, been lurking awhile, so I figured I should join anyway.

I was hoping to get some help with a speed related problem, especially when skiing tracked out steep areas. As a bit of background, I'm 6'6, 250 and learned to ski on New England groomed. My current skis are 185 Metron M:EX's, because poor kids can't afford more than one pair.

To the issue, whenever I ski steeper tracked out areas, I have a lot of trouble controlling my speed. I either fly down the mountain at an unsafe speed that I can't control for more than a handful of turns, or I'm relegated to looking like an idiot taking absurdly wide turns. Obviously, physics has a lot to with this, but I was wondering if there was any way to work on skiing a bit slower while still maintaining good form.

On a related note, skiing powder doesn't present the same issue, because it has an obvious slowing mechanism built in. Thanks for any and all help given.

#2

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7/9/09 at 12:55pm

mudfoot
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If I understand you question correctly, I interrprate "tracked out" to me "crud." I am also a big guy (6' 5", 215 lbs.) on and use 185 M:EXs for my main all-mountain ski, particulary for crud, which they handle quite well. Depending on how heavy the snow is, you can end up with a fight between staying on top, staying in it, and face planting. The M:EXs have a wide fairly soft floaty tip that works well in crud if you stay forward on them. If you get in the back seat they climb on top of the snow and accelerate, after which you have to fight to get back down into the snow to gain control, which is what it sounds like is happening to you.

The crux of speed control is the balance between pressuring the tips enough to stay down in the snow, but not so much that they dive. Once you get the hang of it you can control your speed by leaning forward or back to slow down or speed up. I like heavy crud, which I call "big guy snow" because our extra weight/momentum smooths things out, whereas lighter folks get thrown around alot more. The heavier the snow the lower you need to be, and in the thick stuff you actually push your ski bottom straight into the snow do decamber it after angulating.

Once you get practiced you can use the snow resistence to slow down at will, even in the fall line, which can be less physically demanding than hardpack where you need to edge in order to slow down. I see one of the drawbacks of rockered skis as their inability to utilize this technique.

Stay forward, low, and good luck!

#3

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7/9/09 at 2:16pm

justanotherskipro
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The idea of making wholesale technique changes because the snow is more difficult doesn't really make a lot of sense if you stop and think about it. If you were to ski the same run without the crud how would you ski it? Would you try to rip it up at speed? Would you get defensive and tentative? If you would just ski it without changing much about what you normally would do, then that is the best option when the snow gets heavier. Holding a bit more core tension so you don't get bounced around makes sense but beyond that more difficult snow magnifies errors but shouldn't cause them. Unless of course you start making wholesale technique changes. If you don't own those moves you're writing checks your body can't cash on a consistent basis.
The common sense approach is to go play on a groomer while imagining it is a crud run. If your technique breaks down doing that, then why would you expect it to work in more difficult snow conditions? Like I said earlier crud does not cause movement errors, it just makes them more obvious.

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7/9/09 at 2:59pm

mudfoot
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Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

The idea of making wholesale technique changes because the snow is more difficult doesn't really make a lot of sense if you stop and think about it. If you were to ski the same run without the crud how would you ski it? Would you try to rip it up at speed? Would you get defensive and tentative? If you would just ski it without changing much about what you normally would do, then that is the best option when the snow gets heavier. Holding a bit more core tension so you don't get bounced around makes sense but beyond that more difficult snow magnifies errors but shouldn't cause them. Unless of course you start making wholesale technique changes. If you don't own those moves you're writing checks your body can't cash on a consistent basis.
The common sense approach is to go play on a groomer while imagining it is a crud run. If your technique breaks down doing that, then why would you expect it to work in more difficult snow conditions? Like I said earlier crud does not cause movement errors, it just makes them more obvious.

I am certainly not advocating "wholesale technique changes," but skiing two dimensional groomers while imagining it's crud is not like skiing three deminsional crud of varying desities. I totally agree that the need for basic good technique carries through every kind of terrain and snow condition, but deep or heavy crud has peculiarities that can work for or against you, and it definitely favors the big guy when skied appropriately. Minor fore/aft balance changes can be vitrually a non-issue on groomed, but they are critical in crud.

My basic rule is that your body has to mirror the snow conditions, in the sense that the heavier the snow the more compact your body needs to be (slightly lower with arms closer).

#5

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7/9/09 at 3:18pm

therusty
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Welcome to Epic JTG!

One cool part about Epic is that you can get wildly different answers to your questions (and even some contradictory answers). Often these answers (even the contradictory ones) are just different parts of the big picture. So keep an open mind because you've asked a great question and already have some good info to chew on.

The common secret to skiing different snow conditions is that it's all about small adjustments versus different techniques. One secret adjustment for skiing crud is using your edges to cut through the tough stuff because crud tends to knock flat skis around at the worst possible time. Beyond that you want to narrow your normal turn shape a bit to offset the extra drag of the crud (just not as much as you would in powder). You want a little extra speed to give you more momentum to power through your turns (in addition to using your core muscles to help you hold things together). You also want to "slow motion" your turns a little bit because crud will grab you if you make sudden moves. Doing all this, it's easy to over adjust and end up going too fast. That's when you bail into a wide sweeping turn and either stop and reset or bounce back into a down the fall line line (or if you're like most of us who learned the hard way - crash and burn to reset). Eventually, you'll be able to recognize the increase in speed before it gets too bad and be able to adjust your turns just a little wider to slowly burn off the extra speed. As JASP has alluded to above, good fundamentals makes this all possible. As Mud has pointed out, bad fundamentals (e.g. sitting back) can make of these tips a moot point.

Of course your gear and the pitch of the slope can contribute to the difficulty. Unless you're spending all your time out West in fresh snow, you could drop 5-10cm off your ski length when you get your next pair if this is still bugging you. It's a tradeoff of float for maneuverability. I was almost 240 last season and was on 168s. If you're up for an experiment, try a few hours on 110's or 120's in crud. If you can get through the first couple runs of the "why did I let them talk me into this?" feeling, you'll get to the "this is not so bad, but I'd still rather have my regular skis" stage. When you go back to your regular skis, crud won't be that bad anymore.

And you know, there's no shame in having a little trouble on Goat or Corbet's when the snow is crudded up.

Regards,
Rusty

#6

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7/10/09 at 7:03am

jimmy
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Quote:

Originally Posted by JGTski

First post here, been lurking awhile, so I figured I should join anyway.

To the issue, whenever I ski steeper tracked out areas, I have a lot of trouble controlling my speed. I either fly down the mountain at an unsafe speed that I can't control for more than a handful of turns, or I'm relegated to looking like an idiot taking absurdly wide turns. Obviously, physics has a lot to with this, but I was wondering if there was any way to work on skiing a bit slower while still maintaining good form.

JGT thanks for your post it's been a little too quiet around here lately. Picking a line and staying on/in it is an important way to control your speed. The hard snow is fast, the soft snow is slow, it sounds like you are shopping for turns instead of staying in your line and you are not using the soft snow to control your speed. You have to attack the soft snow to maintain momentum, ya?

To practice this pick a line, a straight line maybe from the middle of the trail to a point 10-20 turns away on the edge of the trail and keep your upper body facing your destination. I narrow my stance a bit I find that easier to maintain control. Don't try to carve around the soft snow that's what i call shopping, attack it with your skis on edge like Rusty said. I'm not sure about not flattening your skis, it won't work in the soft snow but on the hard snow a flat ski is slower than a ski that is on edge and carving.

Too bad we can't go out today and practice this

.

#7

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7/10/09 at 9:05am

MastersRacer
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Fat skis make a lot of stuff easier, but when you need to be in or go through the snow they add challenges.

I tell folks to ski (not bottomless) powder or crud like they are skiing the surface below it. Ski the hardpack. In both powder and crud, if you are hitting the bottom, you need to utilize the bottom snow for your turns, at least part of the time.

In powder it is easy to keep your tips down and utilize the firmer stuff. Powder is also more predictable. You'll feel some float but you always have to be ready to deal with the harder bottom or you'll laze along until you hit the bottom and likely have find yourself on your hip.

On crud, you can aim for the same size turns as you would take if it wasn't crud as this will control your speed, however as mudfoot points out, your tips are going to try to rise and fall with the crud. It is these rises and falls that put you in the backseat and jet you out of your turns faster than you want to be going. He is also right that your size is an advantage. The thing I don't like is:

'Once you get the hang of it you can control your speed by leaning forward or back to slow down or speed up.'

Pressuring the tips and letting the tips ride up is the result of this forward and back lean, but I'd try to achieve it through increasing pressure to the front of the boot while maintaining an aggressive, forward stance. When you want to get through the crud to manage your speed, anticipate it and strengthen your stance so that you can use your momentum to plow through the crud instead of riding up over it. You will stregthen and relax your stance continuously, and you won't be rocking forward and back.

These are just my thoughts and personal style. Mudfoot has sound ideas that work, too.

As was mentioned before, you get a lot of opinions when you pose a question on Epic. Welcome and good luck.

MR

#8

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7/10/09 at 9:15am

JGTski
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Thanks for the expedient replies, there is definitely a lot of knowledge out there, so thanks for sharing.

I think a majority of the problem comes from the conditions I was taught to ski in. The sort-of-steep groomed runs are fun if you're taking long GS turns at a high speed, but that tactic doesn't seem to translate to steeper runs with varying conditions.

Mudfoot: I'm definitely getting in the back seat, but I do it as a mechanism to slow down (which is silly because as you said it speeds you up). Can you explain slightly different terms what you mean by pushing the skis in to the snow?

Rusty: Thanks for the welcome. It seems to me that digging my edges in is what makes me go faster, but the different turn shape makes a lot of sense.

Jimmy: I'm definitely "shopping" for turns. If only I could hop on a plane to Chile and work on this now.

Thanks again for all of the insight.

#9

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7/10/09 at 10:00am

mudfoot
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Quote:

Originally Posted by JGTski

Thanks for the expedient replies, there is definitely a lot of knowledge out there, so thanks for sharing.

Mudfoot: I'm definitely getting in the back seat, but I do it as a mechanism to slow down (which is silly because as you said it speeds you up). Can you explain slightly different terms what you mean by pushing the skis in to the snow?

JGT:

As pointed out by several of the other posters, heavier snow forces you to ski more correctly, since "cheating" on your turns in punished more quickly and severly than in other snow conditions. This applies particularly to keeping your weight forward and carving your turns, two things crud resists you doing. Sliding your skis sideways and skidding a little on a turn will result in you getting knocked off balance, so carving becomes essential on the M:EXs, although on rockered fat skis it is a different game.

The smoothest and most balanced way to carve a turn in deep snow is to angluate your skis and decamber them. I have found that I am most stable with a shoulder width stance and lower body position. In heavy snow, once I have begun the turn and angled my body I push the outside ski straight away from me (straight "down" in relation to my angled body) into the snow causing it to bend. This allows me to use my leg muscles to supplement my momentum for bending the ski as needed while keeping my alignment to the skis straight and balanced. Keeping lower with arms closer makes a tighter package that is harder to knock off balance.

On hard snow your weight is probably distrubuted between your skis 90/10, but in heavier snow it may be more like 60/40, otherwise the curd will take control of you unweighted ski. The focus for me is on the tip pressure. If I can control the resistance on my ski tips I control how deep I stay in the snow and consequently my speed to a great extent.

The tendency for most skiers in crud is to sit back and rudder with their tails, which is only marginally effective for turning and requires rearing even farther back to control speed. IMO you need to get forward and take control of your tips, which will allow you to stay balanced in the middle of your skis, and use the entire ski to turn. When things are going right your skis become a giant "reverse accelerator pedal" in the sense that pressing forward slows you down and easing up accelerates you, just like in powder, while decambering your ski determines your turn radius. Every change in snow density will disrupt your turn flow, but if you are tuned into your tip resistance you can quickly adjust.

Good crud skis need tips that are moderately stiff. Too soft and they keeping trying to climb up on the snow, and if too stiff they want to dive. Personally, I have found the M:EXs to be very good in crud, although the tips are a tad wide for optimum relaxation.

#10

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7/10/09 at 11:43am

Stranger
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Crud skiing is a great skill tester of our sport. Like flat light it brings out a lot of the tension based bad habits. Back seat skiing, hill hugging, stiff posture, locked up body positions, and all the combinations and permutations of these sins. Then a turn is missed or blown and the problems get multiplied by speed.

Moderation in all things including all this advice, including mine. Everything being discussed is adjustment not a redesign of skiing. Front and back may only be a 1/2" difference in balance point. Adjust to the conditions with the skills and tools you have available.

It seems that most blown out turns from level1 beginners or World Cup racers comes from a loss of a basic balanced stance. The inside or uphill hand falls back,the body rotates into the turn, weight goes back, and welcome to the wonderful world of survival turns. If your hands are ahead of you (in your field of vision) and your body facing down the hill you can be the master of your universe (well more in control for a few seconds anyway).

Finishing the turns is my secret to speed control. Get the skis turned farther across the fall line before starting the next turn, scribing a rounder arc with the turn if you will. I ski a slower line in the crud and increase the speed as I become more comfortable with the conditions (may be the cowards way out, but haven't broken myself for a few years using this approach). It will slow you down whether you are carving, skidding, or any mix there of. The unfortunate thing about this sagely advice is that if your technique breaks down your are still in trouble (like all the other concepts above).

Really liked the concept of tightening the core, had not thought about it but do it.

"Politics is the 2nd oldest profession in the world and it bares a close resemblance to the 1st." Will Rogers

#11

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7/10/09 at 11:57am

CanuckInstructor
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger

Finishing the turns is my secret to speed control. Get the skis turned farther across the fall line before starting the next turn, scribing a rounder arc with the turn if you will. I ski a slower line in the crud and increase the speed as I become more comfortable with the conditions (may be the cowards way out, but haven't broken myself for a few years using this approach). It will slow you down whether you are carving, skidding, or any mix there of. The unfortunate thing about this sagely advice is that if your technique breaks down your are still in trouble (like all the other concepts above).

This.
There are lots of interesting and mostly good ideas in the thread, but I think they're over thinking things too much. When presented with a change in environment (choppy snow), the first thing I'd go to is changing your tactics (finishing the turn more) before you try to make a technical change (pressuring the tips more/less, engaging edges more/less, etc.).

#12

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7/10/09 at 2:22pm

mudfoot
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There are obviously several ways to "skin the crud cat," but from my experience if you turn too far out of the fall line (finish the turn) in heavy snow you are stuck with making a huge radius turn to get back, or a jump turn, neither of which are always good options, which is why I have come to rely on using ski tip pressure on the snow to help control my speed. This technique can work in many kinds of deep snow even when directly in the fall line, although it admittedly takes the right skis and lots of practice.

I was a patrolman in Montana for several years and consequently spent many many days skiing godawful snow conditions because I had to, but it did teach me a few things about skiing crud as a matter of survival. Sometimes all you can do is hit it hard to push it into the desired turn shape, but most crud has a texture and a rhythm that can be figured out if you work at it for a couple of runs. If nothing else it turned me into a "feel" skier, because there is no technique that works in all kinds of funky snow. To be a good crud skier you have to interperate the snow condition and react accordingly for each turn, so you need to focus on feeling the snow with your skis. If you can learn to feel the snow with your tips it gives you a little more lead time before the reaction is needed.

Unfortunately, it is often the case that stiffer boots and skis work better for blasting through heavy crud, yet they take away all the feel needed to do it with the least effort possilbe. My solution has been soft boots (Kryptons) and fairly stiff skis (M:EXs), but IMO whatever you can do with equipment and your focus to increase the feel of your tip resistance in the snow will make you a better skier. Stiff equipment is great for attacking the snow, but my strange goal is to try and caress the crud as much as possible, and that requires being on the front of your skis with a subtle touch at almost all times. Heck, almost anybody can ski good snow, but sometimes it's fun to look for the real crap and try to tame it, even if you take a few lumps in the process.

#13

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7/10/09 at 2:57pm

Stranger
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Mudfoot; you hear a big AMEN on that. There are sooo many ways to do anything on a pair of skis, and especially in loose snow.

A real part of the beauty of skiing is that we have to adapt, the conditions won't. They will change but not adapt to us.

Where did you patrol?

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#14

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7/10/09 at 3:10pm

mudfoot
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Stranger, I was a lift operator for a year and then pro patrol for 4 years at Montana Snowbowl, back in my ill-spent youth.

#15

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7/10/09 at 10:45pm

tetonpwdrjunkie
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It sounds to me like a turn shape issue. You can make a turn of any size and control speed if the shape of that turn brings you across the hill enough to provide a speed check. It sounds like you need more finish on your turn as you say you are going too fast after a few turns on the steep. I like the term tactic used in an earlier post. You can use the turn you already have. Try keeping a rhythm and turning on your beat instead of shopping for the turn. Ski straight down a single fall line instead of switching them up. If something comes up go into double or half time, but keep your beat and hold your line. You don't need to make a huge turn to finish it round. I teach what I call the puzzle turn in steep narrow chutes. It is a short round turn with a slightly delayed finish, a subtle up hill hook before releasing into the next turn. The tracks would interlock like puzzle pieces. A round turn isn't necessarily a carved turn, we shmear as the turn is shaped. Crud is a bit different in texture, but the turn mechanics stay basically the same. I like a mid radius turn that maintains momentum and busts through. If it seems as though you are losing too much momentum by finishing a turn, it's probably a case of the shape not being round and consistent. J turns put a huge brake on the end of the turn and will be harder to mange in crud and even powder. I like to think of using a power tool like a saw. You can cut straight and you can cut curves, but if you try to force the tool into too sharp of of an arc, the blade will bind and kick back. If you don't bind the blade the tool tends to cut cleanly. As mentioned in an earlier post crud can really be unforgiving in ways most other conditions aren't. Most problems I see are rushing the second half of the turn or not finishing the turn and carrying too much speed into the next one. If skiing rhythmically and round like I have described sounds boring or mechanical think of music. A good musician has the discipline to play in time and the creativity to be unique. Every Rock solo or jazz lick or whatever style gets you going is played within a rhythmic framework and in tune. If it's not you can tell and I know we have all heard musicians who don't play well. I hope this helps

#16

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7/11/09 at 4:21am

Ghost
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Lots of good advice above.

If you are leaning back, you should know that a slight weight shift to the rear is faster.

What mudfoot says about depth adjustment via weight shift is also true, provided the snow is deep and soft enough to do it.

What stranger says about finishing turns is true too.

What rusty says about crud skiing leads directly to my point below.

Skiing tracked out crud has its own particular difficulties. Mostly the unevenness of it, the sudden changes in drag can catch you out. The variable affect of what bit of snow your tips are hitting can alter what shape they bend into. You can with enough time predict the mean and average the affect to decide on a turn shape, but that takes a little experience.

It sounds like what is happening is that the crud is just plain and simply messing with your technique, you hit something and it gets you a little out of sorts, you compensate a bit and keep going, hit something else while not quite in the ideal position and get a little further out of shape. And here's the thing! When your a little bent out of shape, it's easier to go straight. Without realizing it (or maybe you do), the crud is changing your turn shape and line and causing you to go straighter down the fall line. You need to spend enough time practicing in the crud to reach the point that the turns you make are your own. Don't let yourself be bullied off your line or intended turn shape. If that means skiing slowly, ski slowly; if that means stopping after making an error instead of making a recovery, then stop. Eventually you will be able to work your way up to ripping in crud.

Being in control of your technique is all you need. I would not go for shorter skis, unless as an exercise to improve and demonstrate how much easier it is with the longer skis; I weigh 165 and find my 190s and 208s work a lot better in crud than my 165s.

Sometimes it's just a matter of time in the element. I've found that spending an entire day in the type of snow you need work on will make a very noticeable difference the next time you go skiing and happen to encounter those conditions.

#17

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7/15/09 at 10:33am

JGTski
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Thanks to everyone for the above information and insight; I definitely have a lot to read now and work on during the upcoming season.

#18

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7/15/09 at 11:04pm

abertsch
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A lot of good information in this thread. The hard part is that all of it is true. Each of the things mentioned could help your skiing. In fact, each of these things WILL help your skiing as you improve them. The question is, which technique will most readily lead to comfort and control in these conditions? tetonpwdrjunkie is right on the money, and Ghost also identifies a major component of the issue.

What you need is turn shape. And of course we're telling you something you already know: That you need to finish your turn slightly uphill to bleed off a ton of speed with very slight effort. The thing is, we skiers don't always do that, even when we think we are. We especially don't do that when we're out of our element. We tend to turn almost all the way across the hill and then traverse, perhaps for a long time, until maybe we slow down a little bit. These are the enormous wide turns you were talking about. We want to avoid these wide turns so we start the new turn too soon, and we rush through the top half because we're already going too fast and we don't want to spend any time in or near the fall line and this whole thing snowballs.

Instead of making super wide turns, just keep the radius of your turn constant as your skis begin to point up the hill. Make sure you allow the ski tips to keep turning past the point where you stop accelerating, all the way up the hill to the point where you start really decelerating. Do this far more than in powder, perhaps slightly less than if you were on a fast groomer. It's amazing how fast your speed comes under control when the ski tips are just slightly uphill. You don't have to go far, but you MUST go past the horizontal. Don't stop turning up until your speed is under control and you're ready to turn down. You will eventually find the timing of exactly how far you need to turn back up the hill before you start a smooth transition in to the next turn. Take your time starting that new turn; if you've finished your turn up the hill you don't have to rush through the first half of your new turn to keep in your line, it'll be no problem! And as an added bonus when you don't rush through the top of the new turn, you will actually start controlling your speed even before you reach the fall line.

-Adam

#19

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7/16/09 at 10:10am

justanotherskipro
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The confidence to execute your turns in challenging situations doesn't happen overnight, nor does it come from simply surviving a steep run. New moves need to be practiced in a place that allows a skier to experience positive results. Once they gain ownership of those changes it is time to move onto more challenging terrain. It's really no different than teaching short turns on a groomer to a student who want to improve their mogul skiing, or teaching a new maneuver to a racer while freeskiing.

The fact that the OP is more aware of his lack of speed control on steeper terrain and in crud doesn't negate the fact that it is occuring elsewhere. He's just more aware of it when confronted with conditions that demand more precision. Investing some time developing better fundamental skills on less challenging terrain is the long term solution.

#20

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7/16/09 at 11:44am

geoffda
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Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

The confidence to execute your turns in challenging situations doesn't happen overnight, nor does it come from simply surviving a steep run. New moves need to be practiced in a place that allows a skier to experience positive results. Once they gain ownership of those changes it is time to move onto more challenging terrain. It's really no different than teaching short turns on a groomer to a student who want to improve their mogul skiing, or teaching a new maneuver to a racer while freeskiing.

The fact that the OP is more aware of his lack of speed control on steeper terrain and in crud doesn't negate the fact that it is occuring elsewhere. He's just more aware of it when confronted with conditions that demand more precision. Investing some time developing better fundamental skills on less challenging terrain is the long term solution.

Amen JASP. People who have trouble with speed control usually have it everywhere; they just don't realize it because in many conditions they are comfortable travelling at speed. While overfinishing the bottom of a turn can be a useful tactic, it is really a recovery for not managing speed properly throughout the turn. True speed control comes from bending the ski to achieve a uniformly round arc at a radius which will achieve the desired level of speed. Note that this does not necessarily mean a fully "arced' or "edge-locked" turn, but it does mean that you must establish your radius early by getting your skis quickly on the new edges in transition and immediately adding pressure. You need to commit to the new turn early and "get upside down"--meaning that your hips are downhill of your skis at the top of the turn. Doing this establishes radius early. Failure to do this results in acceleration. If your skis enter the fall line with little or no bend, the vector of the forces is primarly downward. Whereas if you are are in an established turn when your skis enter the fall line, the force vectors are outward. Round, c-shaped arcs will result in a constant speed. J-shaped arcs will result in acceleration and unless you overfinish your turns, you will continue to accelerate with each turn. To fix this, go back to blue groomers and work on developing the top of your turn. You'll need a clean transition from edge to edge, clear balance transfer to the new outside ski, early movement into the turn, and probably strong hip angulation to maintain balance in order to pull this off.

#21

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7/16/09 at 2:40pm

MastersRacer
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Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

The fact that the OP is more aware of his lack of speed control on steeper terrain and in crud doesn't negate the fact that it is occuring elsewhere (emphasis MR). He's just more aware of it when confronted with conditions that demand more precision.

JGTski, is this true that you are having speed control problems that don't involve crud?

#22

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7/16/09 at 2:42pm

MastersRacer
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Quote:

Originally Posted by abertsch

You don't have to go far, but you MUST go past the horizontal.

Are you advocating turning more than 180 degrees in each turn? If you go past the horizontal on each turn, then that what I am envisioning.

#23

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7/17/09 at 11:54am

JGTski
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MastersRacer

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

The fact that the OP is more aware of his lack of speed control on steeper terrain and in crud doesn't negate the fact that it is occuring elsewhere (emphasis MR). He's just more aware of it when confronted with conditions that demand more precision.

JGTski, is this true that you are having speed control problems that don't involve crud?

The actual answer is probably yes, but it's difficult to say because I ski well on steep(er) groomed pitches. Part of JASP's suggestion is correct, but I also don't ski Eastern groomed runs any different than I would the steeper groomed runs at a Deer Valley. Obviously I go faster, but my form doesn't change and I don't feel less comfortable.

At the same time, I would say that I'm a "one-speed skier" in the sense that I essentially go as fast as the run allows (the problem, as poorly implied above, being that runs that aren't in almost ideal condition create some havoc). So to answer the initial question, I probably have a speed control problem, but I don't think it's a technique issue, although it probably is.

Hopefully that makes slight sense, but it probably doesn't, so let me know and I'll clear it up.

Edited by JGTski - 7/17/2009 at 07:44 pm GMT

#24

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7/17/09 at 2:18pm

MastersRacer
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Quote:

Originally Posted by JGTski

The actual answer is probably yes, but it's difficult to say because I ski well on steep(er) groomed pitches. Part of JASP's suggestion is correct, but I also don't ski Eastern groomed runs any different than I would the steeper groomed runs at a Deer Valley. Obviously I go faster, but my form doesn't change and I don't feel less comfortable.

At the same time, I would say that I'm a "one-speed skier" in the sense that I essentially go as fast as the run allows (the problem, as poorly implied above, being that runs that aren't in almost ideal condition create some havoc). So to answer the initial question, I probably have a speed control problem, but I don't think it's a technique issue, although it probably is.

Hopefully that makes slight sense, but it probably doesn't, so let me know and I'll clear it up.

Edited by JGTski - 7/17/2009 at 07:44 pm GMT

Got any video of yourself? I'm visualizing you maching along on any trail you are on, but when you get in crud, the snow takes control and you can't manage your speed.

If this is the case, and you believe that the depth of powder acts as 'snow brakes' eliminating speed as an issue, then keeping your skis in the snow in crud would have a similar effect as in powder. It is when the snow pops you up and out of it that you may really accelerate.

MR

#25

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7/17/09 at 4:19pm

justanotherskipro
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Location: Central Colorado
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So JGT,
I agree with everyone that speed control through line selection is important but I doubt turning uphill will solve your problems because it is only addressing one of your complaints. Namely the speed control issue. It doesn't address the shopping for a turn issue, or the wider than normal turn shape you mentioned. In fact it might even produce even wider turn shapes as you hang onto that turn a bit longer to produce the uphill finish.
Momentum is the key here. You need some forward momentum to bust through the snow pillows and clumps but if you end the turn too far inside you lose all your downhill momentum and you end up line shopping. More speed only adds to this because you end up even more inside at the end of the turn. So speed to create forward momentum is only a partial solution. I strongly suspect you do not project your body into the new turn when it gets steeper. It's this lack of downhill momentum that inhibits your ability to start the next turn and stay on a tighter line. The across the hill traverse and line shopping are common symptoms when your hips and body stay too far inside during the last phase of your turns. So even though the feet and skis may need to finish the turn across the hill, or even slightly uphill, the body shouldn't be following the feet up the hill. Go play with the idea and I think you'll find linking tighter turns in crud is so much easier if you commit yourself to moving into the new turn like you would on a groomed run. BTW I know a lot of instructors who are still stuggling with this very issue, so don't expect to master this overnight. It takes a lot of positive mental self talk and some good external coaching to convince yourself that you can ski broken crud as well as you can ski a groomed run. Once you get to the point that you can ski either condition with the same ease you will understand just how similar the movement are. You'll also understand how much your attitude and self concept can affect your performance and execution.

I hope this explains why I suggested you carry a bit more core tension to mitigate the skis stalling and jetting but otherwise you need to just ski like you would if the slope was groomed.

#26

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7/17/09 at 5:41pm

MastersRacer
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Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

So JGT,
I agree with everyone that speed control through line selection is important but I doubt turning uphill will solve your problems because it is only addressing one of your complaints.

I was questioning the merits of turning uphill, myself, therefore my clarifying questions earlier. JASP's points about downhill mometum are spot on. I also agree completely with JASP that the line you take is going to affect your speed. Arcing, linked turns are key to that.

Core tension, as JASP mentions, will help you keep your skis in the snow and maintain your momentum. Essentially what you will doing with core tension is applying your entire body, as a unified mass, to your progress through the crud, 'busting the crud' as you go. Your body position will remain essentially unchanged. You will prevent the crud from lifting your skis over the snow (speeding you up) or pushing your feet back (destroying your balance). That's what 'crud bustin' is all about.

MR

#27

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7/17/09 at 7:22pm

CHRISfromRI
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Welcome JGT!

I'm going to assume you're referring to tracked out conditions with large piles of pushed heavy crud, and with thinner more slick stuff in between the piles. Most of this all results from a lot of traffic turning around the piles, and pushing snow onto the piles making them even bigger over the course of the day.

I'm only 170 pounds and usually ski 160 - 170 cm skis, but one thing I often do in these conditions which is going to sound a little contrarian, is to aim straight for the bigger piles of crud themselves. As I go through them there is a natural slowing that takes place from friction, and they're patterned in a nice way to link smooth well rounded turns between them. Make sure to not get jacknifed by tensing your core muscles just as you hit the piles, as the larger piles will slow you so much you can get folded over. This works fine with my 75mm wide, 82mm wide and 88mm wide staves. Hope you can try it and it allows you to enjoy skiing this condition more.

#28

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7/17/09 at 9:47pm

BigE
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geoff,

Nice!

JTGski-- in a nutshell, round is slow. Make your turns as round as you can, *including* the top of the turn.

The transition is important too.... if you allways project/launch your body downhill, that can be the "acceleration straw" that breaks the camels back. I suspect that you're thinking that the pressure late in the turn is just getting too much to bear.

Ty a retraction style of release instead ie, flex to release. This will enable you to re-assert pressure on the skis earlier in the turn. Flexing by itself is not enough, but since your body will stay above your skis longer (instead of running away from your skiis) , you should be able to figure out how to get early pressure. Hint: momentum matters. You can't manage the turn with late pressure only.

#29

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7/17/09 at 10:14pm

volantaddict
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Location: Missoula, MT
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Quote:

Originally Posted by mudfoot

If you get in the back seat they climb on top of the snow and accelerate, after which you have to fight to get back down into the snow to gain control, which is what it sounds like is happening to you.

The first thing I thought, when reading the OP, was that he must be in the back seat. Proper fore/aft weight distribution is essential to speed management, regardless of the conditions. In crud/chop, it is common, for those less accustomed to it, to lean back in hesitance, which causes the acceleration leading to the loss of control over one's descent and line.

The heaviness of the complexity fuels the force behind the dart that hits the mark.

#30

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7/18/09 at 4:01am

Ghost
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Post Count: 10,653

Quote:

Originally Posted by volantaddict

The first thing I thought, when reading the OP, was that he must be in the back seat. Proper fore/aft weight distribution is essential to speed management, regardless of the conditions. In crud/chop, it is common, for those less accustomed to it, to lean back in hesitance, which causes the acceleration leading to the loss of control over one's descent and line.

Very likely. When you hit a big wet pile of crud, you have to be back to take the hit and not end up on your face or jack-knifed at the waist, but you don't have to stay back.

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